Why would an instructor pre-date an affidavit before actually giving the class to a student?

why would a notary notarize something that hasnt yet happened.

True.

So....why are these things happening?

True.

So....why are these things happening?

Instructors want to give the affidavits to the student when the class ends.

However they are also lying on the affidavit if they're saying the student passed the class before the class started.  In reality doesn't matter much if the student passed the class and is given one.  But legally it's a no go.

Why would an instructor pre-date an affidavit before actually giving the class to a student?

I can think of a couple.

One reason may be convenience.  Notaries charge for their services.  they also don't usually work on weekends or charge a higher weekend rate.  Getting a batch signed prior to end of class can expedite getting the affidavits in the hands of students who complete the training.  Waiting until everyone finishes the class delays getting the letters to everyone.  I know when I took my NRA handgun safety class, I had to make a special trip almost a week later to pick up my affidavit.

Another might be to take advantage of a bank's free notary service.  Banks usually don't charge for the first couple of documents.  A class of 12 means he can visit the bank over 4-6 days to get the affidavits he needs -- depending on the actual number per day the bank allows.  it's 2 documents per day at my credit union.

Notaries have no choice but to record the exact date they notarize a document.  The date in their record book and the date on their signature on the document have to match.

You'll need to wait until after you complete the class for the trainer to have the affidavits notarized.  If the trainer mails them out, that's additional costs the students will have to cover.  So, this is one more speed bump for CCW. 

It's not hard nor very expensive to become a notary -- $130 to apply, take the exam, and get the certification materials.  i could see a trainer having an employee do that so he can notarize the affidavits the last day of class.  If that notary then makes his services available to other trainers for a small fee, the certification could pay for itself.  They could also offer weekend hours where most notaries don't.

I don't know if my "reasons" are the actual ones -- just thinking out loud!   

When I completed my handgun class the instructor said we will need to wait because he will now have to get the affidavits notarized and we will be notified when to come pick them up.

So that's why I asked my question.  Not insinuating anything.  Just wondering why.

why would a notary notarize something that hasnt yet happened.

You misunderstand the role of a notary.

Their job is to verify the identity and signature of the person requesting a notary seal on a document.  This makes the document legal in the sense that there can be little question that the person whose signature is on the document belongs to the signer.  In other words, you can't claim someone else signed your name.

It is not the notary's job to validate, verify or otherwise check the contents of the document being signed.

If I ask a notary public to notarize a letter saying the moon is made of cheese, they will -- to signify that I was the person signing my name.  The notary is not supposed to deny service if they disagree with the letter's contents.

True.

So....why are these things happening?

Two things I can see. 1) notary is only to witness the instructors signature of the documents and not to certify the contents of the document, and that is acceptable use of a notary? in which case hpd is nitpicking. or 2. shenanigans that could and probably will possibly negatively impact the cause.

Two things I can see. 1) notary is only to witness the instructors signature of the documents and not to certify the contents of the document, and that is acceptable use of a notary? in which case hpd is nitpicking. or 2. shenanigans that could and probably will possibly negatively impact the cause.

Yes.  I agree with these possibilities.  In the case of the previous poster who mentioned the affidavits were dated on a Thursday but the class was on Saturday, it's reasonable to assume that the affidavits were notarized  on a Friday, which is perfectly fine.

However, we all know how anti-2a Hawaii is and HPD is no different so, something like this, especially when HPD discovered this discrepancy, can possibly negatively impact our 2a cause.

NV"s CCW app stating you completed the approved instructors class doesn't need to be notarized.  Just a regular signature.  HI is making things difficult on purpose.

Yes.  I agree with these possibilities.  In the case of the previous poster who mentioned the affidavits were dated on a Thursday but the class was on Saturday, it's reasonable to assume that the affidavits were notarized  on a Friday, which is perfectly fine.

However, we all know how anti-2a Hawaii is and HPD is no different so, something like this, especially when HPD discovered this discrepancy, can possibly negatively impact our 2a cause.

OR, It could be that HPD is doing the instructors and the students a favor, and making sure that all their documents are in line. In case of the affidavit being used in court, if it was left with "incorrect" dates, you can imagine the field day lawyers would have with it.

I'm reminded of the day my divorce was granted.

I received word that the divorce would be final (future tense) after my soon-to-be-ex, my one minor daughter, and I attended a lecture/class designed to make sure the younger family members were aware of why the divorce was happening and what to expect.

So, we attended the meeting at 5 PM the day we were scheduled.  Note this was after business hours. 

Side note: Looking around the room at the courthouse, there were a LOT of people getting divorced, and those were just the ones with young kids ... and just for that one month!!

After the meeting, I pulled up our divorce info on the Hawaii family court case search website.  Sure enough, the divorce was final -- and dated that same day. 

The final date was not the date the judge issued a decision granting the divorce, but the date we completed the required meeting -- a contingency as it were.

I see no difference between that process and the training affidavits.  If the letters are handed out contingent upon successful completion of the class, then the date the affidavit was signed is immaterial.  The completion date can be included in the document as well.  Possession of the letter should be proof of completion, since the trainer would only hand them to those who finished the class.

HPD is making up their own rules again.

OR, It could be that HPD is doing the instructors and the students a favor, and making sure that all their documents are in line. In case of the affidavit being used in court, if it was left with "incorrect" dates, you can imagine the field day lawyers would have with it.

I never would have seen it from this standpoint but it does make perfect sense.  Prior to this I've always thought HPD was nit-picking but in a way, not only does this help the CCW holder and Instructor, but also HPD in case for some reason any document relating to granting a CCW license gets used in court.

But then again, this is compounded greatly by the fact that there are so many BS documents to apply for CCW and I wish it was more streamlined but that would be subject for another thread.

BTW a few weeks back at the HPD meeting i attended, Records and ID Major/Captain mentioned that as of that day, the back log of applications was over 1000.

I never would have seen it from this standpoint but it does make perfect sense.  Prior to this I've always thought HPD was nit-picking but in a way, not only does this help the CCW holder and Instructor, but also HPD in case for some reason any document relating to granting a CCW license gets used in court.

But then again, this is compounded greatly by the fact that there are so many BS documents to apply for CCW and I wish it was more streamlined but that would be subject for another thread.

There should be no requriements for affidavids. No requirements for hpd to review any paperwork.

They arent CYA-ing, theyre looking for reasons cause they dont like what Bruen opened up.

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yup exactly, I wouldn't receive the affidavit from the instructor if I did not complete the course. what difference does it make when the affidavit was notarized.

I'm reminded of the day my divorce was granted.

I received word that the divorce would be final (future tense) after my soon-to-be-ex, my one minor daughter, and I attended a lecture/class designed to make sure the younger family members were aware of why the divorce was happening and what to expect.

So, we attended the meeting at 5 PM the day we were scheduled.  Note this was after business hours. 

Side note: Looking around the room at the courthouse, there were a LOT of people getting divorced, and those were just the ones with young kids ... and just for that one month!!

After the meeting, I pulled up our divorce info on the Hawaii family court case search website.  Sure enough, the divorce was final -- and dated that same day. 

The final date was not the date the judge issued a decision granting the divorce, but the date we completed the required meeting -- a contingency as it were.

I see no difference between that process and the training affidavits.  If the letters are handed out contingent upon successful completion of the class, then the date the affidavit was signed is immaterial.  The completion date can be included in the document as well.  Possession of the letter should be proof of completion, since the trainer would only hand them to those who finished the class.

HPD is making up their own rules again.

6 years or so ago when I took my CCW class in Hawaii ( apply in AZ and get reciprocity from other States ) they gave us our certificates at the class when passed and had notary show up at the end and set up outside. We could then choose to pay the notary right there and get it notarized or go get it notarized ourselves. Pretty much everyone got it notarized on the spot.

Looks like complaining to the police commission works.  Hope this gets more people to apply now.

HPD approves 409 concealed-carry licenses, making headway on backlog
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2023/08/03/hawaii-news/hpd-approves-409-concealed-carry-licenses-making-headway-on-backlog/

Looks like complaining to the police commission works.  Hope this gets more people to apply now.

HPD approves 409 concealed-carry licenses, making headway on backlog
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2023/08/03/hawaii-news/hpd-approves-409-concealed-carry-licenses-making-headway-on-backlog/

Can you post w/o the paywall?

I got 2 friends who got theirs this week. AFter waiting over 150days.

HNN this morning said 409 apps approved and several people were moved to the processing department to speed things up.  Maybe they realized licensed CCW holders are not the ones they should be worried about. I will apply for a license once the sensitive places law gets overturned along with the BI's relinquishing your privacy affidavit.

Logan claims backlog will be cleared this month.

https://www.kitv.com/news/more-permit-requirements-coming-for-gun-users-in-hawaii-starting-in-24/article_0ad18a3a-31d4-11ee-90cc-47edd4683154.html

HONOLULU (KITV4) -- Gun advocates are calling it another roadblock to legal gun ownership. In order to buy a handgun in Hawaii you'll need to get a permit by either taking a handgun safety class or a hunter's ed class.

Current certifications will be void starting January 1st, 2024 and a new class will be required.


KITV is linking this to criminals robbing a store. Stupid AI or dumb ass-clownery "jounalists"

https://www.kitv.com/news/police-still-looking-for-two-suspects-involved-in-armed-robbery-at-little-caesars-pizza-in/article_798a16ac-2a92-11ee-bd34-5bc01081b510.html

So I went to the Ewa Beach post office to pick up my letters yesterday. It "looks" like they have a stack of 20+ letters that they haven't delivered yet.