HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit) (Read 45416 times)

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #220 on: January 20, 2026, 09:15:31 AM »

oldfart

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #221 on: January 20, 2026, 09:49:46 AM »
I got something for their sensitive place. :rofl:
What, Me Worry?

QUIETShooter

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #222 on: January 20, 2026, 10:59:49 AM »
I got something for their sensitive place. :rofl:

I'd go one further and tell them where to shove their sensitive place.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #224 on: January 20, 2026, 02:55:24 PM »
So everythings done now.  HI CCW holders have some freedom due to the injuction until SCOTUS rules in June or so.  If SCOTUS sides with HI, then bye bye CCW as it's now useless. 

Kalihi Uka

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Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2026, 03:22:58 PM »
An hour or so of “all they are doing is voiding the 2A,” followed by a hour or so of “all we are doing is making it impossible, to carry a firearm.  There’s still a 2A on paper …. somewhere.”

Putting aside the brilliant “Hey we’re really a Kingdom, and once we were the KKK you know, I think that’s about it, right?

Painful to listen to.
My ankle monitor? It’s right there at home where it belongs

Begle1

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2026, 03:56:09 PM »
If you don't have time, here's the transcript

This case is interesting to me because a lot is at odds with the way I intuitively see things.

First of all, the way Bruen compels both sides to argue historical narratives is damn silly. Sure, as a libertarian, it's certainly nice that lawmakers are forced to find historical analogs before they can restrict firearms, but there is a lot unanswered about just how that should work. Questions like "are anti-poaching laws adequately analogous to anti-carry laws?", and "if colonial-era laws and traditions are relevant, why aren't pre-statehood laws and traditions relevant?", and "just because we all find the black codes distasteful or even unconstitutional today, does that make them any less applicable historically?" need to be answered... And hopefully this case clears some of that up at least.

Getting into the case itself, it does seem as much about property rights as firearm or self-defense rights. My personal philosophy is that public-facing businesses are largely required to do business with the public... This is an issue that comes up whenever there is a discrimination case, and it came up big during the COVID plague as well. In my view, if your business model is open to the public, if there is an "OPEN" sign on your unlocked door and you want people to walk into your business, then you are licensed, permitted and obligated to serve whoever is in your community, at least until they begin to take action within that you find detrimental. Legally speaking this is where "protected classes" come in, which is another legal concept I find silly... In my view, if you have a public-facing business, your default obligation is to serve anyone, regardless of any class they may belong to. 

But now the question is, are there any rules you can put on who you serve? Can you require people wear a mask to enter, or not wear a mask, or not have a backpack, or pull down their pants, or get a vaccine, or a hair cut, or speak English, or say a pledge of allegiance, or not smell like curry (whether or not you are deathly allergic to curry) to do business with them? On one hand, private property and the right to personally associate is absolute, sure... Until you are operating as licensed public-facing business, at which point I believe you yield a lot of your right to control who you associate with. For people also have a right to engage in commerce, and that right is often at odds with a business owners' right to freely associate. If somebody has a weird hairstyle, or a swastika tattoo, or is unvaccinated, or smells bad and looks dirty, and so every store in town decides they aren't going to do business with that person, then is that person now pariahed from society and destined to die because they can't engage in life-sustaining commerce?

I believe that everybody in a community has a right to engage in commerce with the public-facing businesses in that community. At least until they're disruptive in some way or adjudicated against.

But some things are disruptive by their very presence. What if they have a dog, can you tell them no dogs? What if they're naked, can you require they wear clothes? What if they're covered in vomit, can you tell them to come back after a shower? What if they are carrying a rifle, can you tell them no rifles? What if they are wearing an explosive suicide vest, can you tell them no explosive suicide vests? What if they have a MAGA hat?

My first personal conclusion is, I'm fine with a business saying "no guns allowed", but it can only go so far as openly-visible guns. A public-facing business doesn't have a right to pat you down or search you upon entering. "Concealed means concealed"; a business can't bar somebody from commerce due to any reason that isn't immediately visible or obvious.

I also don't philosophically believe businesses can use your entrance, presence or even transaction as as any sort of binding agreement; like it wouldn't be legally binding if McDonald's posted a sign that said "if you come through this door you agree to give us $1,000 and to name your first-born child Big Mac". It should be no more legally perilous if you had a concealed gun and carried it into a business despite the business having a sign that said "No Guns Allowed". Okay, I didn't do what the sign said; so what? What is legally binding about a sign on a door? If I do anything illegal or that you find offensive, that can be dealt with, but the sign shouldn't have bearing in that. "I didn't see that sign."


But that still doesn't entirely answer this case... This case is largely about the state compelling public-facing businesses to take a default position on enacting rules for their customers. In what other ways does government do that? They require sanitary requirements: "service animals only" and "no shoes, no shirt, no service" are Department of Health requirements, correct? I don't believe that is unconstitutional. But those requirements also apply to all applicable businesses; a business owner can't opt out of them, right? During COVID the state or county mandated we present vaccine cards for service; I'm pretty sure that was an unconstitutional requirement, for the government and the business, although I don't believe it was every adequately litigated. But again, for at least most of that period, it was a blanket requirement for all applicable businesses. Where else can a business rightfully make a decision on whether to allow something or not, but then the state decrees a default answer for all businesses? They don't do that for smoking; businesses can't opt-in to smoking. Where else is our government issuing a decree on behalf of all businesses but then giving them the opportunity to opt out of?

So I've reasoned this case out and have decided how it should work:
1) A business (or owner of any other open-to-the-public private property) can bar people from carrying visible guns, or most anything else, if they deem it disruptive.
2) Open-to-the-public private entities don't have means to know who is carrying concealed guns, and so can't bar concealed guns... And any attempt to bar them should be frivolous in the event a concealed gun becomes an unconcealed gun.
3) If there is customer requirement that a business does have control over, the state can't mandate a default stance one way or the other... What is actually up to property owners to decide, should be left to property owners to decide.

4) It would sure be nice to have a more explicit affirmation of gun rights than Bruen, which is still a pile of unanswered questions at this point.
5) One more thing, if a private entity does bar open carry on their property, that rule assuredly should apply to everybody, regardless of where they are getting paychecks from.

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #227 on: January 21, 2026, 01:38:05 PM »
This case is interesting to me because a lot is at odds with the way I intuitively see things.

First of all, the way Bruen compels both sides to argue historical narratives is damn silly. Sure, as a libertarian, it's certainly nice that lawmakers are forced to find historical analogs before they can restrict firearms, but there is a lot unanswered about just how that should work. Questions like "are anti-poaching laws adequately analogous to anti-carry laws?", and "if colonial-era laws and traditions are relevant, why aren't pre-statehood laws and traditions relevant?", and "just because we all find the black codes distasteful or even unconstitutional today, does that make them any less applicable historically?" need to be answered... And hopefully this case clears some of that up at least.

Getting into the case itself, it does seem as much about property rights as firearm or self-defense rights. My personal philosophy is that public-facing businesses are largely required to do business with the public... This is an issue that comes up whenever there is a discrimination case, and it came up big during the COVID plague as well. In my view, if your business model is open to the public, if there is an "OPEN" sign on your unlocked door and you want people to walk into your business, then you are licensed, permitted and obligated to serve whoever is in your community, at least until they begin to take action within that you find detrimental. Legally speaking this is where "protected classes" come in, which is another legal concept I find silly... In my view, if you have a public-facing business, your default obligation is to serve anyone, regardless of any class they may belong to. 

But now the question is, are there any rules you can put on who you serve? Can you require people wear a mask to enter, or not wear a mask, or not have a backpack, or pull down their pants, or get a vaccine, or a hair cut, or speak English, or say a pledge of allegiance, or not smell like curry (whether or not you are deathly allergic to curry) to do business with them? On one hand, private property and the right to personally associate is absolute, sure... Until you are operating as licensed public-facing business, at which point I believe you yield a lot of your right to control who you associate with. For people also have a right to engage in commerce, and that right is often at odds with a business owners' right to freely associate. If somebody has a weird hairstyle, or a swastika tattoo, or is unvaccinated, or smells bad and looks dirty, and so every store in town decides they aren't going to do business with that person, then is that person now pariahed from society and destined to die because they can't engage in life-sustaining commerce?

I believe that everybody in a community has a right to engage in commerce with the public-facing businesses in that community. At least until they're disruptive in some way or adjudicated against.

But some things are disruptive by their very presence. What if they have a dog, can you tell them no dogs? What if they're naked, can you require they wear clothes? What if they're covered in vomit, can you tell them to come back after a shower? What if they are carrying a rifle, can you tell them no rifles? What if they are wearing an explosive suicide vest, can you tell them no explosive suicide vests? What if they have a MAGA hat?

My first personal conclusion is, I'm fine with a business saying "no guns allowed", but it can only go so far as openly-visible guns. A public-facing business doesn't have a right to pat you down or search you upon entering. "Concealed means concealed"; a business can't bar somebody from commerce due to any reason that isn't immediately visible or obvious.

I also don't philosophically believe businesses can use your entrance, presence or even transaction as as any sort of binding agreement; like it wouldn't be legally binding if McDonald's posted a sign that said "if you come through this door you agree to give us $1,000 and to name your first-born child Big Mac". It should be no more legally perilous if you had a concealed gun and carried it into a business despite the business having a sign that said "No Guns Allowed". Okay, I didn't do what the sign said; so what? What is legally binding about a sign on a door? If I do anything illegal or that you find offensive, that can be dealt with, but the sign shouldn't have bearing in that. "I didn't see that sign."


But that still doesn't entirely answer this case... This case is largely about the state compelling public-facing businesses to take a default position on enacting rules for their customers. In what other ways does government do that? They require sanitary requirements: "service animals only" and "no shoes, no shirt, no service" are Department of Health requirements, correct? I don't believe that is unconstitutional. But those requirements also apply to all applicable businesses; a business owner can't opt out of them, right? During COVID the state or county mandated we present vaccine cards for service; I'm pretty sure that was an unconstitutional requirement, for the government and the business, although I don't believe it was every adequately litigated. But again, for at least most of that period, it was a blanket requirement for all applicable businesses. Where else can a business rightfully make a decision on whether to allow something or not, but then the state decrees a default answer for all businesses? They don't do that for smoking; businesses can't opt-in to smoking. Where else is our government issuing a decree on behalf of all businesses but then giving them the opportunity to opt out of?

So I've reasoned this case out and have decided how it should work:
1) A business (or owner of any other open-to-the-public private property) can bar people from carrying visible guns, or most anything else, if they deem it disruptive.
2) Open-to-the-public private entities don't have means to know who is carrying concealed guns, and so can't bar concealed guns... And any attempt to bar them should be frivolous in the event a concealed gun becomes an unconcealed gun.
3) If there is customer requirement that a business does have control over, the state can't mandate a default stance one way or the other... What is actually up to property owners to decide, should be left to property owners to decide.

4) It would sure be nice to have a more explicit affirmation of gun rights than Bruen, which is still a pile of unanswered questions at this point.
5) One more thing, if a private entity does bar open carry on their property, that rule assuredly should apply to everybody, regardless of where they are getting paychecks from.

Bruen isn't supposed to have both sides show text, history, and tradition.  Only the state needs to as if the plantif were to do so, then Bruen would be asking them to prove something that doesn't exist.

Property owners can almost choose who enters. There are some protected classes for medical, race, etc...reasons. The issue with the law is it's adding the weight of the law to somone CCWing when the property owner doesn't want them to.  This means the government is restrictng a right.  A property owner is free to ask someone to leave and then tresspass them if they refuse.  But at no point should a firearm charge be implemented.

There's a reason why the state never specifically banned CCWing in churches (falls under 1st amendment too).

rpoL98

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #228 on: January 21, 2026, 03:09:13 PM »
Quote
Breitbart News pointed out that Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson contended that “Black Codes” offer precedent needed to justify Hawaiian gun controls, although she subsequently admitted said codes were “unconstitutional.”
Quote
Roll Call explained:
    Justices Neil M. Gorsuch and Samel A. Alito Jr. objected to Hawaii relying on the 1865 law, part of the “Black Codes” meant to disenfranchise newly freed former slaves. Alito called it the “height of irony” to cite a law meant to disarm freed slaves and make them vulnerable to the Ku Klux Klan in support of the modern Hawaii law.

https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2026/01/20/justice-alito-hawaiis-gun-control-relegates-2a-to-second-class-status/

separately, some chick YouTube blogger Stones2ndSense posts:  "WILD! KBJ Tried To Use WHAT To Defend 2A Infringement"
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AHSWb66EGnk


Biden's DEI hire ...  :wacko:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2026, 03:15:01 PM by rpoL98 »

Westside_Redneck

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #229 on: January 21, 2026, 04:00:31 PM »
So everythings done now.  HI CCW holders have some freedom due to the injuction until SCOTUS rules in June or so.  If SCOTUS sides with HI, then bye bye CCW as it's now useless.

With that said, what does the injunction mean for us Hawaii CCW holders as of right now?

Can we CC into private businesses now regardless of the signage in the windows, knowing that there's a federal level injunction until June 2026 on the matter?

I believe Hawaii CCW holders have the right to know what we can and cannot do as of right now.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #230 on: January 21, 2026, 04:17:25 PM »
https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2026/01/20/justice-alito-hawaiis-gun-control-relegates-2a-to-second-class-status/

separately, some chick YouTube blogger Stones2ndSense posts:  "WILD! KBJ Tried To Use WHAT To Defend 2A Infringement"
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AHSWb66EGnk


Biden's DEI hire ...  :wacko:
Jackson is the moron that said in her confirmation hearing that the can't define what a woman is, because she's not a biologist!

The fact that this type of analog is considered by any justice to be valid shows how polarized the court has become.  TDS lives in the SCOTUS, and there's not much we can do but keep a person like Trump in the White House so the next SCOTUS appointees are less radical.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

hvybarrels

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #231 on: January 21, 2026, 04:48:46 PM »
separately, some chick YouTube blogger Stones2ndSense posts:  "WILD! KBJ Tried To Use WHAT To Defend 2A Infringement"
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AHSWb66EGnk
Biden's DEI hire ...  :wacko:

KBJ trying to make an asinine argument, and then Sarah Harris steps in



Sharing is caring, but forced redistribution is communism.

Photobaby808

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #232 on: January 21, 2026, 04:58:26 PM »
With that said, what does the injunction mean for us Hawaii CCW holders as of right now?

Can we CC into private businesses now regardless of the signage in the windows, knowing that there's a federal level injunction until June 2026 on the matter?

I believe Hawaii CCW holders have the right to know what we can and cannot do as of right now.

Could be totally wrong, but even currently, if a business has a sign, you are not allowed to carry.  Would be the same if SCOTUS ruled in our favor. The only business that I have come across is Whole Foods. 

But like I said, I could be wrong.

hvybarrels

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #233 on: January 21, 2026, 05:09:50 PM »
Could be totally wrong, but even currently, if a business has a sign, you are not allowed to carry.  Would be the same if SCOTUS ruled in our favor. The only business that I have come across is Whole Foods. 

But like I said, I could be wrong.

It’s not economically viable for most businesses to offend half of their customers

Ask Hollywood how that’s going
Sharing is caring, but forced redistribution is communism.

zippz

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #234 on: January 21, 2026, 06:32:28 PM »
With that said, what does the injunction mean for us Hawaii CCW holders as of right now?

Can we CC into private businesses now regardless of the signage in the windows, knowing that there's a federal level injunction until June 2026 on the matter?

I believe Hawaii CCW holders have the right to know what we can and cannot do as of right now.

The injunction still holds.  Can carry in places without a guns allowed sign, places that serve alcohol, parks/beaches, banks, shared parking lots between government buildings and other uses.  However you cannot carry if those places have a no guns sign.

Should respect a buisness choice if they have a guns not allowed sign.  Just shop someplace else that wants your business.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2026, 08:02:20 PM by zippz »

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #235 on: January 21, 2026, 07:46:25 PM »
With that said, what does the injunction mean for us Hawaii CCW holders as of right now?

Can we CC into private businesses now regardless of the signage in the windows, knowing that there's a federal level injunction until June 2026 on the matter?

I believe Hawaii CCW holders have the right to know what we can and cannot do as of right now.
If theres a city issued signage, u cannot enter.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

aletheuo137

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #236 on: January 30, 2026, 06:55:40 AM »
If theres a city issued signage, u cannot enter.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
At Waikiki Shell, so far...

Sent from my SM-A156U1 using Tapatalk

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #237 on: January 30, 2026, 07:27:51 AM »
At Waikiki Shell, so far...

Sent from my SM-A156U1 using Tapatalk

If the city owns it, like how they own Blaisdell, then it's a government owned building, thus banned anyways.

changemyoil66

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #238 on: January 30, 2026, 07:28:56 AM »
NRA donated to the lawsuit too.  They also allowed Beck and O'Grady to use their office there as well.

Glad to see the NRA finally do more.

rpoL98

Re: HIFICO, Wolford etal vs. Lopez (Hawaii State Sensitive Places Lawsuit)
« Reply #239 on: January 30, 2026, 12:17:27 PM »
The injunction still holds.  Can carry in places without a guns allowed sign, places that serve alcohol, parks/beaches, banks, shared parking lots between government buildings and other uses.  However you cannot carry if those places have a no guns sign.

Should respect a buisness choice if they have a guns not allowed sign.  Just shop someplace else that wants your business.
Kapolei Cheesecake Factory doesn't want 2A business, No Guns signage on the front door, but that doesn't seem to be hurting their business model any.  Olive Garden on the other side of the parking lot doesn't have No Guns signage, so that's the 2A alternative.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2026, 05:20:53 PM by rpoL98 »