I typed this up on Facebook a while back and thought it a good discussion for here but I cannot recall if I ever got around to it so if this is a repeat post I apologize.

A lot of people are upset about the gun violence problem we have in the USA and rightly so. They come up with all sorts of laws to restrict firearms and firearm access but one question keeps nagging me:

If gun violence is so much of a problem that it justifies heavily restricting firearms and firearm access, why does alcohol get such a pass?

I have looked at a lot of data on gun violence and a lot of data about the effects of alcohol in society and I can say definitively that alcohol causes a lot more damage than firearms. So why aren't heavy restrictions being placed on alcohol? Do the lives not matter anymore? Are we just too addicted to it that we can demand guns go away but don't touch my bottle?

Consider these statistics(USA)
Deaths by firearms average about 40,000 people per year of which:
-23,000 are suicides
-15,000 are homicides
Alcohol related deaths average about 95,000-140,00 people per year of which:
-10,500 were from DUI
-47,500 were from drinking related health problems
-About 10,000-14,000 were suicides

In fact the data would seem to suggest that eliminating alcohol would do far more to reduce the death rate than eliminating firearms. When you look at the crossover data you can really see how so much of the gun violence (and non-gun violence) appears to stem from the alcohol use :
-About 33-50% of people who committed homicide had been drinking - So out of about 25,000 homicides per year, up to 12,500 were committed by intoxicated people.
-About 37% of rapists had been drinking
-About 2/3rds of domestic violence suspects had been drinking
-About 40% of child abusers had been drinking during the abuse
-About ½ of violent crime perpetrators had been drinking
-About 40% of homicide victims had been drinking
-About ½ of sex assault victims had been drinking
-About ¼ of suicide victims were legally intoxicated
-About 30-40% of attempted suicide victims were intoxicated
-1-5% of children are born with fetal alcohol syndrome (37,000 per year if 1%)

Alcohol related problems I couldn't find hard numbers for:
-Non-violent domestic problems
-Child neglect
-Unplanned pregnancy
-General bad life deicisions

From the info posted, alcohol is worse.

Action against firearms probably has more traction due to news.  News probably televise shootings because it gets better #’s.

People are probably fearful of firearms due to the news coverage.

I don’t really recall any dui news except that police officer that killed a young lady decades ago and some kid named Bucky where everyone else in the car died

But I do recall mass shootings

Probably like most people, I don’t “feel” alcohol is a major issue. 

Hence, most people aren’t going to write to their delegates about alcohol.

I can’t find the chart where like less then 2% of deaths are caused by violence

So I feel that it is basically due to the amount of news exposure that firearm related crimes get, that seems to cause the support for more gun laws vs alcohol laws

People don’t research….they just go by what they were exposed to on tv

Guns cause no harm to society.

Since when does 40,000 deaths, most of which are suicides=, rise to the level of causing harm to society?

Individuals, families, friends -- all are impacted by death regardless of the cause.  But a relatively small number like 40K (or 15K if we only focus on the homicides) is not significant enough to be classified harmful to society.

Our nation has a population of over 325M.  The birth rate in 2023 is 12.023 per 1,000.
That's (325M/1,000) * 12.023 =
325,000 * 12.023 =
3,907,475.

I believe that 15,000 homicide stat is insignificant compared to the almost 4,000,000 people born in a year.

To say even 40,000 deaths in a year harms society is also inaccurate when 100 times that number come into the world.

The US death rate is 9.172 per 1,000 people, or 2,980,900 births per year.  That means 1 million more people were born than died from all causes.

So, if you're going to use stats on death by guns versus alcohol, and then ask which causes society more harm, the answer is: Neither.

The only harm is in the perception that the deaths were premature or preventable.  That's not something that harms society unless it's used to divide us into opposing camps -- which is actual harm.  it's harm caused by the anti-gun activists who are convinced guns in the hands of anyone except government are inherently evil and must be completely destroyed.

The government tried banning alcohol before any of us were born.  It made some people very wealthy.  I imagine the same would happen if guns, alcohol or for that matter,  anything currently legal was made illegal.

The government tried banning alcohol before any of us were born.  It made some people very wealthy.  I imagine the same would happen if guns, alcohol or for that matter,  anything currently legal was made illegal.

How TRUE!
See how well the war on drugs has worked and that has created billionaires and private armies.

I typed this up on Facebook a while back and thought it a good discussion for here but I cannot recall if I ever got around to it so if this is a repeat post I apologize.

A lot of people are upset about the gun violence problem we have in the USA and rightly so. They come up with all sorts of laws to restrict firearms and firearm access but one question keeps nagging me:

If gun violence is so much of a problem that it justifies heavily restricting firearms and firearm access, why does alcohol get such a pass?

I have looked at a lot of data on gun violence and a lot of data about the effects of alcohol in society and I can say definitively that alcohol causes a lot more damage than firearms. So why aren't heavy restrictions being placed on alcohol? Do the lives not matter anymore? Are we just too addicted to it that we can demand guns go away but don't touch my bottle?

Consider these statistics(USA)
Deaths by firearms average about 40,000 people per year of which:
-23,000 are suicides
-15,000 are homicides
Alcohol related deaths average about 95,000-140,00 people per year of which:
-10,500 were from DUI
-47,500 were from drinking related health problems
-About 10,000-14,000 were suicides

In fact the data would seem to suggest that eliminating alcohol would do far more to reduce the death rate than eliminating firearms. When you look at the crossover data you can really see how so much of the gun violence (and non-gun violence) appears to stem from the alcohol use :
-About 33-50% of people who committed homicide had been drinking - So out of about 25,000 homicides per year, up to 12,500 were committed by intoxicated people.
-About 37% of rapists had been drinking
-About 2/3rds of domestic violence suspects had been drinking
-About 40% of child abusers had been drinking during the abuse
-About ½ of violent crime perpetrators had been drinking
-About 40% of homicide victims had been drinking
-About ½ of sex assault victims had been drinking
-About ¼ of suicide victims were legally intoxicated
-About 30-40% of attempted suicide victims were intoxicated
-1-5% of children are born with fetal alcohol syndrome (37,000 per year if 1%)

Alcohol related problems I couldn't find hard numbers for:
-Non-violent domestic problems
-Child neglect
-Unplanned pregnancy
-General bad life deicisions

Neither.
Democrats and socialists have caused the most harm.
 

The government tried banning alcohol before any of us were born.  It made some people very wealthy.  I imagine the same would happen if guns, alcohol or for that matter,  anything currently legal was made illegal.

Additionally, bootlegging and graft exploded, creating a massive crime wave.  Whoever controlled the black market production and distribution of booze would make boat loads of cash.

Prohibition saw the birth of the term "Organized Crime."

https://www.history.com/news/prohibition-organized-crime-al-capone

Additionally, bootlegging and graft exploded, creating a massive crime wave.  Whoever controlled the black market production and distribution of booze would make boat loads of cash.

Prohibition saw the birth of the term "Organized Crime."

https://www.history.com/news/prohibition-organized-crime-al-capone

makes me think of NASCAR and Dukes of Hazzard. my favorite TV car, the General Lee!
I must be part Red-Neck 

Never heard of any one shooting too much and getting pregnant. 

Seven states still ban sales of alcohol at restaurants, bars and package stores on election day.

Used to be every state.

There's a reason for the law.  Impaired judgement when voting.

There's also a reason politicians decided to do away with the law.   Impaired judgement when voting! 

From the info posted, alcohol is worse.

Action against firearms probably has more traction due to news.  News probably televise shootings because it gets better #’s.

People are probably fearful of firearms due to the news coverage.

I don’t really recall any dui news except that police officer that killed a young lady decades ago and some kid named Bucky where everyone else in the car died

But I do recall mass shootings

Probably like most people, I don’t “feel” alcohol is a major issue. 

Hence, most people aren’t going to write to their delegates about alcohol.

I can’t find the chart where like less then 2% of deaths are caused by violence

So I feel that it is basically due to the amount of news exposure that firearm related crimes get, that seems to cause the support for more gun laws vs alcohol laws

People don’t research….they just go by what they were exposed to on tv

I think one of the issues is that so many people drink that they don't want to admit that an activity they participate in has such harms. That is not a judgment either, I myself do drink alcohol to.

I just find it incredibly ironic that there is such a strong drive to restrict guns because of the harm to society yet when it comes to a much greater harm, it is all crickets...

We tried prohibition and on many measures it didn't really work. But that isn't really because of some nature of prohibition, it was because too many people wanted to keep drinking. We as a society have decided that the 100,000+ deaths per year from alcohol are an acceptable cost for the freedom to drink.

Guns cause no harm to society.

Since when does 40,000 deaths, most of which are suicides=, rise to the level of causing harm to society?

Individuals, families, friends -- all are impacted by death regardless of the cause.  But a relatively small number like 40K (or 15K if we only focus on the homicides) is not significant enough to be classified harmful to society.

Our nation has a population of over 325M.  The birth rate in 2023 is 12.023 per 1,000.
That's (325M/1,000) * 12.023 =
325,000 * 12.023 =
3,907,475.

I believe that 15,000 homicide stat is insignificant compared to the almost 4,000,000 people born in a year.

To say even 40,000 deaths in a year harms society is also inaccurate when 100 times that number come into the world.

The US death rate is 9.172 per 1,000 people, or 2,980,900 births per year.  That means 1 million more people were born than died from all causes.

So, if you're going to use stats on death by guns versus alcohol, and then ask which causes society more harm, the answer is: Neither.

The only harm is in the perception that the deaths were premature or preventable.  That's not something that harms society unless it's used to divide us into opposing camps -- which is actual harm.  it's harm caused by the anti-gun activists who are convinced guns in the hands of anyone except government are inherently evil and must be completely destroyed.

I would not agree with the definition you seem to be using for the word harm. The presence of a firearm can often cause a death that would not have occurred without a firearm, or a larger number of deaths, than if no firearm was present. I would say that this would be a good way of defining a harm caused by a firearm. Just like with car accidents, you will have some car accidents simply because of the nature of speed, mechanical problems, and human error but then you will have some excess number of deaths related to alcohol making people more dangerous drivers. Guns and alcohol very much do cause a harm to society. The real question is how much harm is acceptable for the benefits provided. For guns there are a number of benefits that at least justify some gun ownership, for alcohol there are no true benefits unless you count feeling drunk as a benefit.

The significance of loss of life should not be measured by how many lives are lost vs how many lives come into this world. You wouldn't write off 1,000 military casualties as insignificant just because 100,000 joined the military (made up numbers).

I would not agree with the definition you seem to be using for the word harm. The presence of a firearm can often cause a death that would not have occurred without a firearm, or a larger number of deaths, than if no firearm was present. I would say that this would be a good way of defining a harm caused by a firearm. Just like with car accidents, you will have some car accidents simply because of the nature of speed, mechanical problems, and human error but then you will have some excess number of deaths related to alcohol making people more dangerous drivers. Guns and alcohol very much do cause a harm to society. The real question is how much harm is acceptable for the benefits provided. For guns there are a number of benefits that at least justify some gun ownership, for alcohol there are no true benefits unless you count feeling drunk as a benefit.

The significance of loss of life should not be measured by how many lives are lost vs how many lives come into this world. You wouldn't write off 1,000 military casualties as insignificant just because 100,000 joined the military (made up numbers).

Define "harm to society."

society
     sə-sī′ĭ-tē
noun
1.  The totality of people regarded as forming a community of interdependent individuals.

2.  A group of people broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.

3.  An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest.

In order to harm society, the effect has to be on the community as a whole, not just the individual or immediate circle of family, coworkers and friends.

One example would be drug addiction -- including alcohol addiction.  That takes a toll on society in terms of lost productivity that might have been contributed by the addicts, lost financial resources due to increased crime, lost resources in terms of healthcare for addicts (OD emergencies, treatment, etc.), impact on communities when addiction is rampant among the homeless, increase in crime associated with the drug trade, and so on.  Those things impact society.

Simply having a few drinks and beating your spouse doesn't have the same effect on society to any real degree.  If the abuser is addicted to alcohol, then that's different, but you failed to even mention that.