dry firing in your yard (Read 8912 times)

QUIETShooter

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2023, 12:50:57 PM »
Heres what you do, talk to your neighbors like human beings do. Let them know you are going to be doing dry fire practice in your yard.

This is a good idea.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2023, 01:12:31 PM »
stop derailing this thread. Id like to go to Perry next year and this is a vital part of my plan - to dryfire and practice.

Not trying to but I don't want someone reading Grovler's bad legal advice and acting on it.

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2023, 01:29:53 PM »
How?  You failed to explain your conclusion with any laws, examples or facts.  You just made a general and vague comment that basically equates you your standard, "Not necessarily."

If you are not a suspect in a crime, then the interaction is considered voluntary.  Unless you are detained, you are always free to leave and answer no questions.

If you are being detained as part of an investigation, the only thing the law requires is that you identify yourself, which can be done nonverbally by showing ID.  While that can be called answering the question "What's your name," you are not making any statements that may be used against you.

if you are under arrest, then you are protected by the 5th amendment, and the "right to remain silent" spelled out in the Miranda warning means just that.  They can't get you in trouble for exercising your rights.

Cops try to get everyone to identify themselves "for their report," but it's also an attempt to do a search on your info to check for wants, warrants, etc.  If you have the right to not answer any questions, then even "basic" answers should be avoided.

Of course, if you are the victim, then talking to the police is a requirement.  Hard to make a complaint without giving details -- that is, if you are interested in getting their help.


I said not necessarily because there are a million different things that can occur in an interraction between cops and the public and small details can make a difference. I would have to write you a whole book to lay out everything.

Let me give you an example where not identifying yourself could make things worse.
Scenario: Officers are looking for Kimo because they have a warrant to arrest him on. Officers see you and you look just like Kimo, same height, weight, and match the most recent photo so they stop you. They ask for your name, date of birth, basic stuff like that but you refuse to provide any information at all. The cops could arrest you for the warrant and be justified legally speaking for making a good faith effort. Eventually your finger prints would be taken and it could be verified that you weren't actually Kimo and you would be released with no charges. Quite the unnecessary inconvenience for you.

The reason that Grovler's advice is poor is because it is a blanket statement to never say anything to cops. If he had said something more specific, like don't answer cops questions about a crime you might be accused of, then that would be sound legal advice.

Refusing to answer even the most basic question, say for example "did you see who robbed that guy?" would raise the cops suspicion and give them some additional reason to dig further.

You are right, that cops will always try to get more information, it serves many different purposes. Not just as a victim or a suspect but also as a witness.

changemyoil66

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2023, 01:52:03 PM »
Not trying to but I don't want someone reading Grovler's bad legal advice and acting on it.

Of course you would think it's bad advise...

Flapp_Jackson

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2023, 01:58:16 PM »
And if you talk to the cops, they will detain and possibly arrest you the first thing you say they believe was a contradiction in your earlier statements.

***
Where are you going?

Home.

Where is home?

<give him the address>

That's in the other direction.

Well, I have to run an errand first.
******

At this point, you have given the Cop cause to suspect you are possibly lying.  had you chosen to not answer, you would not be causing yourself these problems.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2023, 02:01:41 PM »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2023, 02:03:36 PM »
Of course you would think it's bad advise...

Because it is....

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2023, 02:04:46 PM »
And if you talk to the cops, they will detain and possibly arrest you the first thing you say they believe was a contradiction in your earlier statements.

***
Where are you going?

Home.

Where is home?

<give him the address>

That's in the other direction.

Well, I have to run an errand first.
******

At this point, you have given the Cop cause to suspect you are possibly lying.  had you chosen to not answer, you would not be causing yourself these problems.

And what would cops here arrest you for if you made such a statement?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2023, 02:08:56 PM »
Why did I take him off ignore?

Back on ...   :thumbsup:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2023, 03:18:58 PM »

I said not necessarily because there are a million different things that can occur in an interraction between cops and the public and small details can make a difference. I would have to write you a whole book to lay out everything.

Let me give you an example where not identifying yourself could make things worse.
Scenario: Officers are looking for Kimo because they have a warrant to arrest him on. Officers see you and you look just like Kimo, same height, weight, and match the most recent photo so they stop you. They ask for your name, date of birth, basic stuff like that but you refuse to provide any information at all. The cops could arrest you for the warrant and be justified legally speaking for making a good faith effort. Eventually your finger prints would be taken and it could be verified that you weren't actually Kimo and you would be released with no charges. Quite the unnecessary inconvenience for you.

The reason that Grovler's advice is poor is because it is a blanket statement to never say anything to cops. If he had said something more specific, like don't answer cops questions about a crime you might be accused of, then that would be sound legal advice.

Refusing to answer even the most basic question, say for example "did you see who robbed that guy?" would raise the cops suspicion and give them some additional reason to dig further.

You are right, that cops will always try to get more information, it serves many different purposes. Not just as a victim or a suspect but also as a witness.

For every example you give, there are others that can be given to support don't talk to cops.

changemyoil66

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2023, 03:19:46 PM »
And what would cops here arrest you for if you made such a statement?

Cops in HI during the covid proclamation when you could only go to and from essential places.

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2023, 09:10:04 PM »
Cops in HI during the covid proclamation when you could only go to and from essential places.

The reason I asked him that question is because I knew he couldn't point to a law which would allow a cop to arrest someone in his silly scenario. The closest thing is false reporting and that has to do with making a false statement to a cop about a crime, such as making a false claim that someone attacked you.

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2023, 09:15:15 PM »
For every example you give, there are others that can be given to support don't talk to cops.


Thats why you have to know what to not talk about. A blanket statement of don't talk to cops will just lead you into trouble. The difference is in asking basic identifying information (not in interrogation) compared to asking details related to an incident. The 5th amendment protects against interrogation, not against asking for name and date of birth.

Plus, if someone is a witness to a crime, you would hope that they would come forward and tell the cop what happened right? Just saying don't talk to the cops could end up screwing over a victim from having justice be served.

What situation would there be where giving your name to cops would be bad?

ren

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2023, 09:16:19 PM »
what an arse GTFO with your arguments
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2023, 09:19:56 PM »
what an arse GTFO with your arguments

.... no...

ren

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2023, 09:21:16 PM »
.... no...

what does any of your bullshit have anything to do with dry firing
Deeds Not Words

eyeeatingfish

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2023, 09:22:05 PM »
what does any of your bullshit have anything to do with dry firing

Nothing. I was point out why Grovler's legal advice is bad advice.

ren

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2023, 09:22:51 PM »
Nothing. I was point out why Grovler's legal advice is bad advice.

so take your shit with him and move to Green Acres.
Deeds Not Words

changemyoil66

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2023, 08:15:45 AM »

Thats why you have to know what to not talk about. A blanket statement of don't talk to cops will just lead you into trouble. The difference is in asking basic identifying information (not in interrogation) compared to asking details related to an incident. The 5th amendment protects against interrogation, not against asking for name and date of birth.

Plus, if someone is a witness to a crime, you would hope that they would come forward and tell the cop what happened right? Just saying don't talk to the cops could end up screwing over a victim from having justice be served.

What situation would there be where giving your name to cops would be bad?

See how you stated "not against asking for name". So you are correct that the 5th applies because "asking" is different from demanding.  When someone or a cop "ask" you something, you don't have to answer.

What situation would it be bad, maybe if someone had a warrant. They're walking down the street not breaking any law, about to break the law, or did break the law and a cop randomly ask for ID because they "look suspicious" or exercising a 1A right.  This happens all the time across the nation, people make hundreds of youtube videos on various channels about this.  THen say the person doesn't have a warrant, now the cop makes up a charge. Again hundreds of YT vids of this across the nation.So they're not isolated events. You should YT "police audits".

If someone witnesses a crime, I do hope they come forward, but I don't want to FORCE them to come forward. See the difference. Citizens do not implement "ask, tell, make" to other citizens.

Lets apply this to CCW where it's the law/ordinance to inform and produce an ID, CCW license and proof of registration when "interacting" with LEO.  If 1 doesn't interact, then they don't have to produce anything, so 1 walks away as a cop approaches them.  Then it's possible the person forgot their drivers license or CCW or registration as people change wallets or things that hold these documents. Now you've just commited a crime and might now be able to renew your CCW in the future, get it voided, and possible all guns taken away. So why take the change to "interact" with a cop. This is 1 specific example where someone might not want to be a witness to a crime due to having to "interact" and inform LEO they're CCWing.

changemyoil66

Re: dry firing in your yard
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2023, 08:24:12 AM »
Ren

The above has to do with this thread because if a cop approaches you, you have 2 options.

1) Comply when they ask for ID, even though you broke no law. Unless the cop articulates what law was broken.  Example "your neighbor reported you pointed your gun at them". THen you will have to ID.

2) Say no if nothing is articulated to what law was broken. But be prepared for a hassle as cops don't like it when people know their rights.


EEF
B4 you use whataboutism, this has happened before.  Someone was carrying a rifle case (not illegal) and was stopped by a cop (HPD). The cop detained him and asked for ID and frisked him. The chief (Logan) then showed up and he was released. At no time was his gun case opened and he was allowed to keep it.  So the chief would get an A for this situation for protecting someones right. But the initial officer gets a F and so do the other 3 or 4 cops who showed up before the chief did.