Here's the "assault weapon" bill (Read 20719 times)

oldfart

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2024, 05:47:51 AM »
Not sure how this thread got derailed, but RE the prison system:

Put the inmates to work.
During the early years of Hawaii history, that's how a lot of stuff got done.
eg. the road to my grandfather's store was built by prisoners. circa 1900.

It's just common sense.
Especially at a time when the city is chronically shorthanded on workers.
There are so many benefits to doing this.
 :stopjack:
What, Me Worry?

ren

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2024, 07:10:09 AM »
Not sure how this thread got derailed, but RE the prison system:

Put the inmates to work.
During the early years of Hawaii history, that's how a lot of stuff got done.
eg. the road to my grandfather's store was built by prisoners. circa 1900.

It's just common sense.
Especially at a time when the city is chronically shorthanded on workers.
There are so many benefits to doing this.
 :stopjack:

unions wouldn't like that
Deeds Not Words

changemyoil66

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2024, 07:12:57 AM »
It's far easier to blame a gun than the entire criminal justice system post-guilt.

On one hand, higher rates of incarceration does little for society as a whole--it's costly, removes the ability for an offender to contribute to society, and statistically results in reincarceration. On the other, prison diversion programs bet on the impossibility that an officer of the court can make an affirmative determination on an offenders risk to the public.

It's hilarious when "one side" claims their system is better, because the reality is that both are severely flawed. Harsh jail sentences as a "deterrent" is scientifically questionable. Sentencing someone to jail for a year or more exposes them to a "life of crime" and resulting sentences for those future offenses. Restorative and rehabilitative justice as alternatives do not work for everyone, and when it fails, it usually has the same compounded effect of incarceration--further damage to society. The problem isn't the "system" really, it's the self-centered culture of America itself. Retail theft decriminalization? Lets steal, because I'm a victim of systemic racism! Can't get a CCW? "Ainokea", I goin carry  NEway because "shall not be infringed". It's literally the same mentality on both sides of the spectrum.

If America doesn't find a "sensible middle", this culture of extremes will doom us all. It's also the reason why I don't believe most people would get a meaningful amount of training if we had "constitutional carry"--a phrase which, by the way, is politically branded. There is no state in which you can carry "any gun, anywhere, anytime", even if it has the Constitutionalists politically excited.

THe reason America cannot find a sensible middle, is because the anti 2a (DNC) doesn't want one. They want it all.  But since they cannot get it all at once, they take little by little.  Here's what sensible it is:

NICS 20 min background check to buy a gun=OK
HI's 2 weeks to 40 day wait to buy a gun=Not OK
HI's requiring any kind of class to buy a gun or carry one=Not OK
Hi taking 8 months to issue CCW's=Not OK

If you believe in "classes", is a 18hr class requirement OK?  How about 40 hrs or 100hrs?  Where in you're opinion, do you draw the line?

QUIETShooter

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2024, 07:43:56 AM »
Too much kumbaya culture and overthinking.  Trying to appease everyone.  Even the perp.

The KISS doctrine applies here.  Do the crime.  Do the time.  Tuff sh*t.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

oldfart

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2024, 07:44:44 AM »
unions wouldn't like that
===========
yes I know that...maybe common sense will prevail one day.

That is why the clubs were not allowed to do repairs to the facilities at kokohead.
One of the range officers was painting the KHSC facilities on his own without permission or help.
HRA was allowed to cut kiawe trees to prep for the Shooting Sports Fair a few years ago.

That's why I was surprised when the kokonut coalition was allowed to repair the trail going up to the lookout.
What, Me Worry?

Brystont1

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2024, 08:01:11 AM »

At least we now acknowledge that laws apply to firearms and it's a matter of opinion on the severity of these laws. I swear not too long ago, people were saying "shall not be infringed" as a rebuttal and "you don't support the 2A" because my opinions on these matters were different.

I’m acknowledging that there ARE laws, not that I think they are constitutional. You misrepresented “constitutional carry” and I corrected you.

Stack_Xchange

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2024, 08:58:59 AM »
Then we make each incarceration longer and longer until they are off the streets for the rest of their lives.  Maybe those criminals returning to jail do so because there were no disincentives associated with their crimes -- i.e. released time after time with little to no actual time in prison.

Maybe the problem is we've made prisons too comfortable.  My brother spent a week in jail for failing to make good on a couple of checks he wrote that bounced.  he said that was the worst experience of his life, and that he's never going to go back to jail.  It had the intended effect -- negative reinforcement for undesirable behavior.


Oh, you support California's "Three Strikes Law"? Interesting.

Although you think your bothers week in jail was a "deterrent", have you considered the "shame" he experienced in his social circles as another possible deterrent? We know that execution and life imprisonment do not deter people from criminal acts, that is, we still have people murdering others knowing if they are caught, it could lead to a life sentence. Why do you think that is? What if I told you that it's not punishment (jail and fines) that deter people, but rather the social accountability they have to family, friends, and peers are what keep people from committing crimes? If a persons social circle are a bunch of criminals, going to prison may in fact elevate them in those circles-- the sentence they receive then, serves little as a deterrent. Domestic terrorists are often "disenfranchised individuals" as well.

Not sure how this thread got derailed, but RE the prison system:

Put the inmates to work.
During the early years of Hawaii history, that's how a lot of stuff got done.
eg. the road to my grandfather's store was built by prisoners. circa 1900.

It's just common sense.


Sounds like the North Korean penal system, except that it's not multi-generational. It also sounds like enslaving the natives to perform laborious work for colonialists. Imagine women, children, and the elderly performing forced labor as well.


If you believe in "classes", is a 18hr class requirement OK?  How about 40 hrs or 100hrs?  Where in you're opinion, do you draw the line?

A live-fire class long enough to demonstrate a draw from concealment and rapid fire at a targets of reasonable self-defense range, say 5ft. 10ft. 15ft. because that's what you will need to do in a self defense situation when your gun is being carried on your person.

I’m acknowledging that there ARE laws, not that I think they are constitutional. You misrepresented “constitutional carry” and I corrected you.

Wait, so you think any laws related to guns are unconstitutional? So, you do believe that you should be able to carry any gun, anywhere, anytime?

changemyoil66

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2024, 09:01:57 AM »

A live-fire class long enough to demonstrate a draw from concealment and rapid fire at a targets of reasonable self-defense range, say 5ft. 10ft. 15ft. because that's what you will need to do in a self defense situation when your gun is being carried on your person.



U didn't answer my question. When a gun law is made, they cannot put "long enough" in it. So I repeat, how long? You're also forgetting that a class includes book work. How long should this portion be?

changemyoil66

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2024, 09:02:44 AM »


Wait, so you think any laws related to guns are unconstitutional? So, you do believe that you should be able to carry any gun, anywhere, anytime?

As long as one is a legal gun owner, yes. 1 shou[ld be able to carry a gun anytime and anywhere without the government telling them they cannot. Private property owners can do as they wish.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2024, 11:06:50 AM »
Oh, you support California's "Three Strikes Law"? Interesting.

Although you think your bothers week in jail was a "deterrent", have you considered the "shame" he experienced in his social circles as another possible deterrent? We know that execution and life imprisonment do not deter people from criminal acts, that is, we still have people murdering others knowing if they are caught, it could lead to a life sentence. Why do you think that is? What if I told you that it's not punishment (jail and fines) that deter people, but rather the social accountability they have to family, friends, and peers are what keep people from committing crimes? If a persons social circle are a bunch of criminals, going to prison may in fact elevate them in those circles-- the sentence they receive then, serves little as a deterrent. Domestic terrorists are often "disenfranchised individuals" as well.

Sounds like the North Korean penal system, except that it's not multi-generational. It also sounds like enslaving the natives to perform laborious work for colonialists. Imagine women, children, and the elderly performing forced labor as well.

A live-fire class long enough to demonstrate a draw from concealment and rapid fire at a targets of reasonable self-defense range, say 5ft. 10ft. 15ft. because that's what you will need to do in a self defense situation when your gun is being carried on your person.

Wait, so you think any laws related to guns are unconstitutional? So, you do believe that you should be able to carry any gun, anywhere, anytime?

STOP TELLING US WHAT WE BELIEVE OR SUPPORT UNLESS WE SAY SO.  Are you daft? 

ASK if I support CA 3 strikes laws -- don't just assume.   :wtf:

As for my brother, were you there to bail him out like my mother and I were?  IF not, don't try to hypothesize what he was thinking,  I know what he SAID.

As for execution and life in prison, it absolutely DOES deter people from criminal acts.  It's a proven fact that every single person executed has never committed another crime.   :thumbsup:

Do executions and life sentences deter ALL capital crimes?  Of course not, but there's no way to know whether or not someone decided against murder or rape based on the potential consequences.  Nowadays, so many skate on technicalities and insanity defenses, I believe that causes more violent crimes than you'd think.  If there's a 0% chance you'll be free if caught versus a 50% chance, which is more of a deterrent?

As for "forced labor," isn't that what we all experience?  If you want an income, a decent standard of living, a nice car, maybe a house, etc., aren't you being forced to work?  Sure, a small group might start their own companies, but the vast majority have to work for others.  Where would the markets be if everyone was a company owner and there were no workers to hire?

Great, you have a standard you believe is adequate to qualify people to concealed carry.  You didn't state a number of hours for the class.  You also only focused on the manual of arms and marksmanship requirements.  The state also requires training in mental health self-evaluation, reporting, and treatment.  It also requires training on the laws of the federal, state, and city/county so gun toters know what's permissible and what will get their gun rights stripped from them if they get caught not following every single gun law.

And don't forget the cost.  When you have to fork out $200 for a handgun safety class, another $200 for a CCW class, and the ever-increasing CCW application fees, they have essentially priced CCW out of reach of many.  It's the poorest among us who have few options on where they live and when they work.  Those are the people more likely to live and travel through the areas with the worst crime.  These requirements of yours prevent them from legally being armed when walking to the bus stop at 4:30 AM or from the bus stop at 12:30AM.  But, as long as YOU feel safer, that's all that matters.

After buying a handgun, holster, ammo to practice and carry, maybe an extra mag, some range accessories, paying for range time, and a secure way to store the weapon, you really think poor people will be able to afford your training?  i highly doubt it. 

If you care about safety, how about offering a free handgun storage box/safe for first time gun buyers?  Maybe instead of mandating safe storage in homes with kids, we should actually enable everyone who needs it to own a pistol safe. 

As for safety in public when a CCW owner discharges their firearm, it's a statistical fact that CCW carriers who engage bad guys have a much, much lower number of collateral injuries than the well-trained, often-tested, professionls of Law Enforcement.  So, I really don't see that there's a crisis of people walking around with guns without proper training.  I guarantee you a majority have had training -- self selected classes, military training, law enforcement, family members, friends, ... If all you seemingly care about is being able to draw a pistol and hit a "target" that's a threat, then that doesn't take more than an hour at the most.  The rest is practice, which you don;t get in a class unless you opt for one on your own dime like Front Sight.

And your little strawman comment "Wait, so you think any laws related to guns are unconstitutional? So, you do believe that you should be able to carry any gun, anywhere, anytime?" is just that.  You're trying to start an argument over something nobody here has said.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 11:13:43 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Stack_Xchange

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2024, 11:09:51 AM »
U didn't answer my question. When a gun law is made, they cannot put "long enough" in it. So I repeat, how long? You're also forgetting that a class includes book work. How long should this portion be?

"So I repeat..."  :rofl:

The CCW class should be a live-fire testing session where the applicant can demonstrate a draw from concealment and deploy 5 rounds into a target at distances between 5 and 15 feet. That sounds like a realistic scenario.

I don't care about the written test. If you pass the test, you pass. I think "hourly requirements" are silly. Study on your own time or take a "prep" class if you need to. FWIW, and feel free to make assumptions, I finished my Civil Service Exam about 5th, and my rifle permit test 1st. Those tests are so easy and based on common sense that if someone can't pass it, I honestly don't feel bad.

STOP TELLING US WHAT WE BELIEVE OR SUPPORT UNLESS WE SAY SO.  Are you daft? 

Cont....

I suppose it was only a matter of time before I get the CAPSLOCK treatment.

What you are referring to is called "Hedonic Calculus". Not going to touch anything else you've said.  :shaka:

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2024, 11:15:00 AM »
"So I repeat..."  :rofl:

The CCW class should be a live-fire testing session where the applicant can demonstrate a draw from concealment and deploy 5 rounds into a target at distances between 5 and 15 feet. That sounds like a realistic scenario.

I don't care about the written test. If you pass the test, you pass. I think "hourly requirements" are silly. Study on your own time or take a "prep" class if you need to. FWIW, and feel free to make assumptions, I finished my Civil Service Exam about 5th, and my rifle permit test 1st. Those tests are so easy and based on common sense that if someone can't pass it, I honestly don't feel bad.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before I get the CAPSLOCK treatment.

What you are referring to is called "Hedonic Calculus". Not going to touch anything else you've said.  :shaka:

You're not here to discuss the topic ... obviously.

I didn't write all of that because I care what you think.  i wrote it so everyone else can read it and decide for themselves which of us has a better grasp of the problems and solutions.

 :geekdanc: :popcorn:

Pro tip:  you can ignore someone on the internet without having to post you are ignoring them.

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 11:21:54 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Stack_Xchange

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2024, 11:48:05 AM »
You're not here to discuss the topic ... obviously.

I didn't write all of that because I care what you think.  i wrote it so everyone else can read it and decide for themselves which of us has a better grasp of the problems and solutions.

 :geekdanc: :popcorn:

Pro tip:  you can ignore someone on the internet without having to post you are ignoring them.

 :rofl:

Well, I mean you got really upset (starting yelling over the interwebs via. capslock) when I said you believe in "increasing penalties for repeat offenders", because you said "When we make each incarceration longer and longer until they are off the streets for the rest of their lives", which is exactly what Cali's three-strikes law aimed to do. It's clear that you will think whatever you want to think and that's cool with me. I think maybe you got upset because Cali is the devil and you accidentally agreed with a policy made in California.

I care what other people think, because I believe this forum is for exchanging information. I don't care about farming "likes", so whether more people "like" your comments or mine doesn't matter to me. What matters is that maybe, just maybe, there is another way of thinking. That's what I aimed to do in my comments about your bother. You said you believe that he's scared of potential penalties for continued criminal offenses because that's what he said. I just suggested, that it may be something else. Perhaps it's that your bother is really afraid of being shunned by his friends, family, and community, that makes him discontinue offences, even if he thinks the reason he will not further offend is due retributive penalties. A convicted criminal like your brother who is apparently not disenfranchised is different from criminals who are. Imagine if your bother had no family, community, or friends who are not criminals. It would be a different case, no?

I'm not ignoring you, if you're keeping score. I was avoiding interaction with you because you seemed really upset, you know, a de-escalation tactic. You response appeared as if you were waiting for, and perhaps wanting, a confrontation.

macsak

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2024, 11:54:17 AM »
says the guy that always says he has aieahound on ignore...


Pro tip:  you can ignore someone on the internet without having to post you are ignoring them.

 :rofl:

zippz

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2024, 11:55:13 AM »
unions wouldn't like that

Prisoners can work the farms for cheap labor instead of bringing immigrants.  Repay their debts

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2024, 11:59:22 AM »
Well, I mean you got really upset (starting yelling over the interwebs via. capslock) when I said you believe in "increasing penalties for repeat offenders", because you said "When we make each incarceration longer and longer until they are off the streets for the rest of their lives", which is exactly what Cali's three-strikes law aimed to do. It's clear that you will think whatever you want to think and that's cool with me. I think maybe you got upset because Cali is the devil and you accidentally agreed with a policy made in California.

I care what other people think, because I believe this forum is for exchanging information. I don't care about farming "likes", so whether more people "like" your comments or mine doesn't matter to me. What matters is that maybe, just maybe, there is another way of thinking. That's what I aimed to do in my comments about your bother. You said you believe that he's scared of potential penalties for continued criminal offenses because that's what he said. I just suggested, that it may be something else. Perhaps it's that your bother is really afraid of being shunned by his friends, family, and community, that makes him discontinue offences, even if he thinks the reason he will not further offend is due retributive penalties. A convicted criminal like your brother who is apparently not disenfranchised is different from criminals who are. Imagine if your bother had no family, community, or friends who are not criminals. It would be a different case, no?

I'm not ignoring you, if you're keeping score. I was avoiding interaction with you because you seemed really upset, you know, a de-escalation tactic. You response appeared as if you were waiting for, and perhaps wanting, a confrontation.

LOL!  There you go again -- telling me what I feel.  you just can't help it, huh?  I wasn't upset -- it was an attention getter -- which obviously worked.    :geekdanc:  Too bad you were more concerned with the delivery than the message.

Just because a particular thought is different doesn't mean it's better.  Your thoughts are not new.   I have a feeling i've lived through more government administrations than you have.  Your "ideas' have been tried, and this is where it's gotten us.

Your comments about my brother are pure hypothetical nonsense.  First you tell me what my brother might have felt (totally wrong), and now you want to theorize that without family, etc, he would have had a different opinion of incarceration.  You're falling into the same liberal mindset that got us here.  Rather than treat everyone as an individual, you want to pigeonhole criminals based on their circumstances and decide what's best for them as a group.

What do you think would have been a better punishment for my brother?  He was given 6 months to pay less than $400 in restitution and court costs.  When he didn't, he was jailed for contempt of court.   My mother couldn't bail him out on Monday because she got paid on Thursday.  I came home from college for that holiday weekend, and had i not, my mother would have been short the funds to get him out.  She brought the amount he said he owed, but he didn't think about the court costs -- and they wouldn't take a check (would have been ironic in a bounced check case). 

Tell me, what does your sense of fairness and "crime prevention" prescribe for that scenario?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2024, 12:00:45 PM »
says the guy that always says he has aieahound on ignore...
Doesn't make the statement less true, does it?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2024, 12:12:51 PM »
"So I repeat..."  :rofl:

The CCW class should be a live-fire testing session where the applicant can demonstrate a draw from concealment and deploy 5 rounds into a target at distances between 5 and 15 feet. That sounds like a realistic scenario.

I don't care about the written test. If you pass the test, you pass. I think "hourly requirements" are silly. Study on your own time or take a "prep" class if you need to. FWIW, and feel free to make assumptions, I finished my Civil Service Exam about 5th, and my rifle permit test 1st. Those tests are so easy and based on common sense that if someone can't pass it, I honestly don't feel bad.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before I get the CAPSLOCK treatment.

What you are referring to is called "Hedonic Calculus". Not going to touch anything else you've said.  :shaka:

"So I repeat", is a bad example because you weren't clear on what you feel requirements for a CCW should be.  U just wrote distances. 

But now you put get all 5 hits at each distance, which means pass with 100%.  So had I asked again about what you now wrote, "I repeat" can be used without coming off like a know it all.

What kind of target?  A 6 inch circle or a 15 foot circle?  Again, think before you post as this is what YOU want and feel others should be doing. Which you are being asked to provide detailed examples.  Or you're no better than when Moms Demand Action states they want "common sense gun laws". Then when you ask their members, what, what they state is already law or they have no clue what "common sense gun laws are".

The issue with your requirements is that FBI data states 21 feet. So now you're requirement would be considered under par by the anti 2a lawmakers and HPD if they choose to use statistics and not feelings.

Finally, you're OK with learning book stuff like law, mental health, gun safety "on your own time", but shooting has to be certified and required. 

In the end, I don't think you will change your mind on the requirement, but what I'm doing is providing very plausible things that maybe you never thought about.

I'm trying to point out how requirements that you feel are needed has holes in it.

Now here's the kicker, what if our anti 2a lawmakers what to make the shooting test harder?  Would you be OK with that?  Once you open the door for a "requirement", then this can always be changed.

changemyoil66

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2024, 12:27:52 PM »
You guys ever watch YT channel TheRealLarryLawton?  He finds our current prison system doesn't rehabilitate people, but makes it worst.  But he never states what he would change.  Since doing what we're doing isn't working due to our over 70% re-offending rate, maybe we need to try something different and see how that turns out.

Although he never directly states it, he leads on that we should be treating prisoners better than how they're currently being treated.  He always brings up how the guards (CO's) would kick his ass or keep him in the hole, or lose things, etc...Which I disagree with, but I was never in, so it would be nice if he discusses why he thinks it would be better.

What about more capital punishments and like. A thief with 1 arm missing will have a harder time stealing.  Same goes with drug dealers/users. But then I'm pretty sure this would make it more difficult for cops to arrest people since they know what the punishment will be. 

Or is what we're currently doing the best option as both above would make things worst?

hvybarrels

Re: Here's the "assault weapon" bill
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2024, 01:43:01 PM »
If you provide a secure environment for business to operate then jobs get created and there are fewer criminals. That’s what the corporate communists are trying to destroy. Tear down the system and replace it with totalitarianism. Take away our guns and make us beg them to restore order. Only it will be the New World Order

That's the plan anyway, but it will fail like all their other plans and result in chaos.

https://www.activistpost.com/2024/01/homelessness-in-the-u-s-is-up-48-percent-since-2015-and-americans-are-being-laid-off-in-droves.html
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 02:21:06 PM by hvybarrels »
The F in Communism stands for Food