Couple of my coworkers picked up nicer (to me) red dots and lpvo’s for their multi-role hurricane/shtf/HD/range toy ar’s. (One guy has only one AR, the other has 2 AR’s cause he is a “2 is 1” type)

I have my AR’s split into 3 groups
- range toy (4-12x42 scope, no buis)
- pig (Grendel, 7.62x39, lpvo’s, buis)
- HD/shtf/hurricane (iron sights only)

For the HD/shtf/hurricane AR’s, they are simple/lightweight
- pencil barrel
- iron back sight / FSB
- elzetta FSB light mount
- streamlight polytac
- cvlife quick adjust slings

For the folks that have ar’s set up towards HD (not dual purpose HD/range toy….so your HD ar only sees the range only in a blue moon to check function) are you using red dots?

Red dots are great but I’m pake.  And I feel stuff with circuits tend to be the first to go.  Which is why i bought lpvo’s for the pig ar’s.  Even when the circuit goes kaput, it still has an etched reticle and still usable for decades

So I’m thinking iron sights are adequate for 15-20 feet and red dots won’t make much of a difference for the average Oahu person who is unlikely to get into a HD shoot out…..where shoot outs nationally average like 2 shots

At 15-20 ft, I’m thinking almost dont need sights….can just shoulder and aim down the hand guard….or just put the light on the BG to aim

But I could be wrong in my thoughts about nice red dots on HD longarms that only see the range maybe twice in a decade to check function)

We love the cheap red dot on our Ruger Mark III….surprisingly accurate at silhouette.  My friends love their cheap Bushnell red dots on their Ruger 10/22’s.  Based on our experience and experience of friends, cheap red dots (Bushnell TR25, etc) are fairly durable, hold zero and great for range toys

Forgot to mention that I hate cleaning ar’s so they only go to the range if we have a friend/relative coming along.  For me, I’m fine with a 22lr bolt action at the rifle range.

In my home, if an intruder breaks in, there is nowhere in my home where the intruder and myself will be at a distance more than 7 yds when I confront him (them).

So for me, no.

When most people think of home defense, they equate it to their time at the range.  For self defense its usually the opposite

1. Well lit. -->. Dim with shadows
2.  No stress. -->. Extreme stress
3.  Take your time. -->. Split second actions
4.  Clear target. -->. Target obscured by cover/concealment/movement
5.  Feeling good. -->. Just fell out of bed groggy
6.  warmup shots. -->. None
7.  comfortable. -->. Shooting from a cramped doorway with your rifle banging into stuff.
8.  Safe downrange -->. Family and neighbors in the way.
9.  Safe -->. Getting return fire.

It's easy to.miss with a rifle at 10 to 20ft under those conditions.  Especially if they take cover with only a half head exposed in the dark and shooting at you.

That is why red dots rule in extreme conditions in close quarters.  You don't need a $900 aimpoint.  They got durable reliable stuff for $200 or so nowadays.

yes

For the majority of home defense situations, youre facing intruders with a knife or unarmed and likely to run away.  Red dots give you an advantage.

For the less likely scenario where you face intruders with a firearm and basic skills, and who are determined to win.  Red dots are a significant advantage.

At Front Sight, putting 2 rounds in a bad guy target center mass within 2 seconds was the standard when stationary at 7-12 feet.

We also practiced clearing a room.  That upped the stress of staying behind cover while trying to identify and pop the bad guy targets -- without hitting the good guy targets. 

Then there was the hostage exercise.  We had to attach a silhouette cutout over the face of the bad guy target which represented our loved one being used as a shield.  There was enough room to hit the bad guy in the noggin, but the idea was to take your time, get a good sight picture, and squeeeeeeeeze the trigger so you don't miss.

A complete miss could mean the bad guy hurts your loved one.  A miss the other direction meant YOU hurt your loved one.  To give it a little more pressure, you had to write the name of your loved one on the cutout.     

The point being, it's not enough to assume you will only need a sight -- red dot or not -- to hit a target at a given distance.  You may be in a situation where you need to take a shot and be dead-on balls accurate (It's an industry term!).

Given that, a well zeroed red dot on your primary HD gun makes sense EVEN IF you believe your situation will follow the 7-12 foot average distance for self defense shootings.  You still need to take into account over variables.

I have red dots and lasers for self defense, where I would be shooting at very close distances in conditions that are not conducive to finding an eye box.

The range of an LPVO is irrelevant unless you're worried about being besieged in your hacienda.


Storage and use doctrine is a more important factor than optics. Will you be able to get the weapon into your hand in time? Will you be able to navigate your surroundings with it? If you can do those things, it scarcely matters what type of firearm it is or what sort of optics it has. 22 revolver in hand is better than AR stuck under the bed.

Every one of my long guns have a optics.  It's almost a requirement. 

HD shotgun with a light that has a spot in the middle is better in tight spaces since we can't have short barrels here. I'd like to find one of those lasers that spreads with the pattern though.

EOTechs are notorious for draining batteries very quickly, but I like their big TV screen field-of-view.

6 yr old pic.  If I were to break this one out of dormant storage, I'd probably use a Aimpoint CompM4:  big tube red dot, long battery life, built like a tank, reliable as hell.

It depends on how pake you are.  There are RDS that cost a lot and affordable ones.  My SIG Romeo5 costed me $140.  Compare this to an EOTech Reflex or Trijicon type.

Also, RDS have become the new norm on rifles.  I rarely see anyone taking a skill builder in HI with just irons.  They have become much more reliable as well.  but Murphy's an asshole, so things can fail.  Which is why it's important to have back up irons and know how to deploy them.  My battery ran out during an exercise.  I immediately flipped my back up irons and finished.  I welcomed this because there's no real way to practice "unexpected" problems.

An LVPO generally would cost more than a RDS.  And each has it's usages.  Try scanning your home with a LVPO, then with a RDS.  A RDS will be much easier.  But now, try shooting out to 200+ yards.  A LVPO would be easier.  But now if you're engaging at 200yrds, do you have the legal authority to claim self defense?  Just for reference, I can hit a 6 inch gong at 100yrds all day with my RDS.

Tim,

Couple of questions:
1) What is your price range for RDS?  Understand that $400-$1000 for Aimpoints, EoTechs, etc are quite a bit of cash for some folks.  However, there are decent quality options for $150-$200 ish range.  I have one (Holosun) on an AR and while I don't shoot it as much as others (mostly a tester gun), it's done great.  I've taken courses where the instructors had the same (maybe older or different MOA) and it is fine.  I've taken many courses with this group over the years and the RDS is on a gun that gets shot often and is def not babied.
2) Why do you consider your "HD guns" as one that "only sees the range only in a blue moon"?  Personally, I shoot and train with mine often, or at least used to.  Since I don't shoot my ARs as much as I used to.  But I'd have no issues with shooting my AR(s) intended for HD.  They have an uber safe life of 5k rounds, and I'd say much more.  I personally have multiple, but I can understand those who have one.  I think having one gun and "saving it for a rainy day" and not training is a recipe for complacency (not quite disaster).

To answer your question, yes, my HD guns have RDS, AND iron sights.  I don't train as often with the irons as I should, but I do train with them.  Recently, I even bought an AR upper dedicated to shooting irons only.  Yeah, I can shoot the irons I have on the guns I have RDS, but I wanted something more basic/simple. 

As for your point shooting, I THINK I get what you are saying.  I've seen folks who can do amazing with point shooting.  That said, it's one thing if/when it happens versus counting on it to be "guud enuff".  I get you don't like cleaning your ARs, ammo is expensive, and range time is hard to fit in your lifestyle.  I get it, people have priorities.  I def can understand folks that either don't have time or don't want to hit the range to practice and/or train.  But seems like you're looking for an "easy button".

Yeah, I've seen said Bushnells (TR25 and similar) do very well on 22s.  I believe I know at elast one of your friends mentioned.  I've also seen those guns with Bushnells get shot a lot and banged around.  However, the recoil on those are nothing.  Not that the recoil on 5.56 is a lot either. 

Yeah, I've seen said Bushnells (TR25 and similar) do very well on 22s.

Bushnell's can work fine on AR15s.  The problem is it's not bright enough in full sunlight to acquire the dot as quick.  It's a minor point and it can work for HD if that's the budget you have.

Bushnell's can work fine on AR15s.  The problem is it's not bright enough in full sunlight to acquire the dot as quick.  It's a minor point and it can work for HD if that's the budget you have.

Just checked Amazon and listed at $57.99.  I thought they were slightly more, like closer to $100. 

I have a Holosun 403B that I thought I got closer to $100, maybe slightly more.  It may have been on one of those once in a while sales, I think Primary Arms.  Where I decided to give it a try for the price, and it's been decent.  Maybe 2k and no issues.  Just checked Amazon and going rate for 403B seems ot be about $150-160ish.  They have so many models though.  I have a Holosun (I think 503) on my AR9, but don't shoot that gun much.  Plan is to shoot it in PCC matches, but haven't yet. 

Never owned a primary arms, but heard good things about them, they're a mainstream value optic.

Red dots are fairly simple with two pieces of glass and dot emitter.  I don't see the point of getting the high end ones.

  I don't see the point of getting the high end ones.

Same guys buy Trijicon RMR for $600.

gUud enuFf

Same guys buy Trijicon RMR for $600.

Never owned a primary arms, but heard good things about them, they're a mainstream value optic.

Red dots are fairly simple with two pieces of glass and dot emitter.  I don't see the point of getting the high end ones.

I am all about value, and I own a range from what I'd consider mid-budget to high(er) ends RDS.  Say Holosun in the $150-$200 range to Aimpoint CompM5 and EoTech EXPS.  I'd say the Aimpoint and EoTech are on the higher end of RDS.  From my experience, all of the RDS on ARs that I own function well.  However, I do notice differences. 

Discussed this in other threads in RDS.  I think there is a premium placed on name brands.  However, I also think some of that premium is on what goes into the products ahead of the actual product.  R&DTE, QC, etc.  Will it matter to the "average consumer"?  Probably not, but there are some that will pay the premium. 

gUud enuFf

bRaH

Some are GTG with whatever they have, ya know.  B/c one time in skill builder, in a galaxy far far away. . . 

If you don't have the money to spend on a proven, reliable optic, stay with the always tried and true iron sights. Aimpoints, Trijicons, EoTechs all are proven. There is no 100% guarantees in life but if I'm putting my life on a tool I want it to be trustworthy. The Aimpoint RDS can be had for $400 that includes the mount and tools to mounts it. Out of the box onto your rifle. Went through trials and now its adopted by the FBI.
You can spend less than that on a product that hasn't been through that but that difference is that risk of it failing. Is it worth it? Is it "good enough" to protect you, your family, friends in a situation where everything has gone to sh!t? I cant justify spending a lot of money on a rifle i.e. a Barrett and then put an Osprey on it. It's like getting a brand new 2003 Tacoma and putting bed springs to lift it.