Mags don't fall out in combat, only in competition...

Mags don't fall out in combat, only in competition...

They seem to have a high rate of dropping in formal training classes, too.  The rate is directly proportional to the number of students watching.

 

They seem to have a high rate of dropping in formal training classes, too.  The rate is directly proportional to the number of students watching.

 

Had a rule at Sig Academy.  Chamber checks are free and if you press the trigger on a empty chamber, you run 100 yards to ring the gong of shame.  I was on the firing line with everyone else watching.  I draw and "click" and heard a lot of gasps.  Tap racked and ejected a round.  All good.

When I'm running a firing line it's not uncommon to see dropped magazines.  Due to tactical and admin reloads on a closed slide making it more difficult to lock into place.

Competition training is different from.......

Self defense training and this is different from......

LE training and this is different from......

Military training (so called "combat" training).

I am not an expert in any of the above and only experienced the last type of training.  I have not served in a combat zone.

And of course, it's just my 2 cents.

Competition training is different from.......

Self defense training and this is different from......

LE training and this is different from......

Military training (so called "combat" training).

I am not an expert in any of the above and only experienced the last type of training.  I have not served in a combat zone.

And of course, it's just my 2 cents.

This sums it up. Each has it's purpose.Like martial arts training for self defense. If you use BJJ and there's more than 1 attacker, you're going to get knocked out. Striking would be the most effective.

Interesting topic. 

Good point on the "timer doesn't go off".  That said, there's a lot of videos on correlation between performance shooting on "real work engagements".  Not necessarily combat, but LEO engagements, "CQB" (purposely in quotes), etc.

I've never been in combat, so will leave it to experts like CMO. . . 

This video focused a lot on mindset and emotional side of the comparison of the "misconception".  "mental and psychological terror", where many folks are associating gun handling proficiency with that experience.  Where many assume all are "gun guys", where many view guns as just another tool. 

One point that I've noticed with my personal experience with firearms training, is that there are those that can do, but not necessarily teach.  There is NOT a direct correlation with those that (at least say they are proficient) to teaching.  Teaching, especially relating to a range of people being trained is a special talent/skill. 

His value is survival, where he made a great point of diversifying other skills, especially medical. 

Interesting topic. 

Good point on the "timer doesn't go off".  That said, there's a lot of videos on correlation between performance shooting on "real work engagements".  Not necessarily combat, but LEO engagements, "CQB" (purposely in quotes), etc.

I've never been in combat, so will leave it to experts like CMO. . . 

This video focused a lot on mindset and emotional side of the comparison of the "misconception".  "mental and psychological terror", where many folks are associating gun handling proficiency with that experience.  Where many assume all are "gun guys", where many view guns as just another tool. 

One point that I've noticed with my personal experience with firearms training, is that there are those that can do, but not necessarily teach.  There is NOT a direct correlation with those that (at least say they are proficient) to teaching.  Teaching, especially relating to a range of people being trained is a special talent/skill. 

His value is survival, where he made a great point of diversifying other skills, especially medical.

Can you elaborate on this: I've seen competition shooting and when they messed up, they just gave up cause they know they won't finish their time goal.  Like fumble on re-load, jam, drop mag, of course jams may be rules as well to stop.

What I'm getting at is IMO, training thru the problem is the common all the above have except competition, unless it's a specific problem solving competition.  This is why I'm not a fan of setting up malfunctions cause you still know it's going to happen.  I learn more thru unplanned malfunctions, which is rare cause M45A1's don't jam (joke).

Can you elaborate on this: I've seen competition shooting and when they messed up, they just gave up cause they know they won't finish their time goal.  Like fumble on re-load, jam, drop mag, of course jams may be rules as well to stop.

What I'm getting at is IMO, training thru the problem is the common all the above have except competition, unless it's a specific problem solving competition.  This is why I'm not a fan of setting up malfunctions cause you still know it's going to happen.  I learn more thru unplanned malfunctions, which is rare cause M45A1's don't jam (joke).

Elaborate on what?

Not ALL folks who are into competition are in it for pure competition/score.  Some are in it for improvement of skill overall.  You should try it. . . it might open your eyes to some things. . .

Elaborate on what?

Not ALL folks who are into competition are in it for pure competition/score.  Some are in it for improvement of skill overall.  You should try it. . . it might open your eyes to some things. . .

A competitive situation is important when training for the real thing.  You're under pressure to hit the target in an area that scores points, you're under a time crunch, depending on the stage you may be using barricades, obstacles, moving targets and other challenges, and you have a bunch of people watching how you do.  All that, and you have to be careful of safety rules such as being aware of muzzle direction, safely drawing from holster, and above all not dropping your firearm.

Anyone can practice on a target range and meet high standards with enough practice, but that can change when you have to move, fire at moving targets, perform reloads, fire from behind cover, shoot through small openings, and do it all as fast as possible while following safety rules.

The problem I saw with MPPL competitions was the lack of trigger time.  Most of the time was spent watching everyone else shoot and helping reset or tape targets.  Maybe 15-20 minutes of shooting out of several hours standing in the midday sunshine trying to stay hydrated.

if they could have split us up into smaller groups among more stages running simultaneously, I would have continued going.

1) A competitive situation is important when training for the real thing.  You're under pressure to hit the target in an area that scores points, you're under a time crunch, depending on the stage you may be using barricades, obstacles, moving targets and other challenges, and you have a bunch of people watching how you do.  All that, and you have to be careful of safety rules such as being aware of muzzle direction, safely drawing from holster, and above all not dropping your firearm.

Anyone can practice on a target range and meet high standards with enough practice, but that can change when you have to move, fire at moving targets, perform reloads, fire from behind cover, shoot through small openings, and do it all as fast as possible while following safety rules.

2) The problem I saw with MPPL competitions was the lack of trigger time.  Most of the time was spent watching everyone else shoot and helping reset or tape targets.  Maybe 15-20 minutes of shooting out of several hours standing in the midday sunshine trying to stay hydrated.

if they could have split us up into smaller groups among more stages running simultaneously, I would have continued going.

1) That's mostly why I started shooting USPSA.  Well, mostly to "do more" than shooting on the bullseye range, specifically shooting and moving.  The pressure of the (fcuking) buzzer does simulate stress.  Ya, not stress of "real thing", but point (at least my take away) is your performance (mind, body, whatever) is affected by stress, adrenaline, etc.  It's not necessarily a bad thing,  but key to realize that it happens and some level of exposure of if/when it happens.  Also the "problem solving" aspects, which (at least to me) include assessing of target difficulty, and yeah the fumble and occasional malfunction.  And YES, the stress of competing with your friends definitely matters, which makes it fun, challenging, and sometimes embarrasing.

2) Yeah, that is one sucky part of it.  You're there for 5+ hours for maybe 2 mins tops of shooting.  The range does make a lot of limitations for groups waiting on neighboring stage.  I've been to some mainland matches where every stage is a separate bay.  However, in some cases, that leads to folks taking a ton of time to walk through the stages. . .

1) That's mostly why I started shooting USPSA.  Well, mostly to "do more" than shooting on the bullseye range, specifically shooting and moving.  The pressure of the (fcuking) buzzer does simulate stress.  Ya, not stress of "real thing", but point (at least my take away) is your performance (mind, body, whatever) is affected by stress, adrenaline, etc.  It's not necessarily a bad thing,  but key to realize that it happens and some level of exposure of if/when it happens.  Also the "problem solving" aspects, which (at least to me) include assessing of target difficulty, and yeah the fumble and occasional malfunction.  And YES, the stress of competing with your friends definitely matters, which makes it fun, challenging, and sometimes embarrasing.

2) Yeah, that is one sucky part of it.  You're there for 5+ hours for maybe 2 mins tops of shooting.  The range does make a lot of limitations for groups waiting on neighboring stage.  I've been to some mainland matches where every stage is a separate bay.  However, in some cases, that leads to folks taking a ton of time to walk through the stages. . .

sounds like fun
too bad i don't own any firearms nor ammo...

sounds like fun
too bad i don't own any firearms nor ammo...

I can loan you one… for PCC 🤔

I can loan you one… for PCC 🤔

guns are evil...

Competition is beneficial and can lead to a better shooter overall.  Both competition and combat forces you to go 100%.  If it's action type shooting, both will raise your adrenaline, heartbeat, breathing, etc.  Working under stress and using muscle memory for a lot of things.

Problem with competition is everything is already known...where the targets, layout, time, etc.  Most of the time you can see the stage and walk through it.  Or it's shown on paper and you can rehearse it at home or mentally visualize it. You can plan ahead where you will reload, what order to shoot the targets, etc.

I've done combat competitions where you go into the stage blind which is an improvement.  However with elaborate stages, sometimes you don't know what to do and you need guides to tell you which takes away from it.

Then there's simunitions or airsoft/paintball which is a good experience for getting the heart pumping and tactics/coordination.  But the safety gear and guns take away the realism.

Competition is beneficial and can lead to a better shooter overall.  Both competition and combat forces you to go 100%.  If it's action type shooting, both will raise your adrenaline, heartbeat, breathing, etc.  Working under stress and using muscle memory for a lot of things.

Problem with competition is everything is already known...where the targets, layout, time, etc.  Most of the time you can see the stage and walk through it.  Or it's shown on paper and you can rehearse it at home or mentally visualize it. You can plan ahead where you will reload, what order to shoot the targets, etc.

I've done combat competitions where you go into the stage blind which is an improvement.  However with elaborate stages, sometimes you don't know what to do and you need guides to tell you which takes away from it.

Then there's simunitions or airsoft/paintball which is a good experience for getting the heart pumping and tactics/coordination.  But the safety gear and guns take away the realism.

The introduction of stress really changes things. I did a lot of paintball and just started doing airsoft and when you can hear the rounds hitting around you it definitely makes a difference in your abilities until you can learn to account for the stress. Some things don't translate that well from paintball and airsoft but overall I do think they benefit a person seeking to learn combat shooting.

The introduction of stress really changes things. I did a lot of paintball and just started doing airsoft and when you can hear the rounds hitting around you it definitely makes a difference in your abilities until you can learn to account for the stress. Some things don't translate that well from paintball and airsoft but overall I do think they benefit a person seeking to learn combat shooting.

I talked to the Dogs of War owner. He mentioned once that some SEALs came by to go against some kids. The kids worked them.  1 example on why was the SEALs were treating it like how they treat real combat. So cover behind certain things wasn't taken as a bullet would go thru it.  and why they would continue try to shoot thru soft walls when the kids were taking cover behind them.

But no matter what, you know you not going die.

That is the difference.

But no matter what, you know you not going die.

That is the difference.

That's the main reason for regular practice.  You want to react according to your training instead of trying to make split-second decisions under threat of death. 

He who hesitates is lost.

The introduction of stress really changes things. I did a lot of paintball and just started doing airsoft and when you can hear the rounds hitting around you it definitely makes a difference in your abilities until you can learn to account for the stress. Some things don't translate that well from paintball and airsoft but overall I do think they benefit a person seeking to learn combat shooting.

combat? tell us about your "combat experience"