I've heard it more than a few times - Boastings of Hawaii's Gun laws and low number of guns being responsible for the lowest murder rate in the USA.  A statistic that does not add up with other stats across the globe let alone the remainder of USA. There has to be another reason for this oddity.
Lets apply Accums Razor -
Keep in mind along with the above, Hawaii does not put fluoride in its water supply and our air is relatively lead free to that of the rest of the occupied world.
Read through the following links and you will see why Hawaii has such a low murder rate. Pass this information on to those around you.

http://dianabuckland.webs.com/Div%20Added%20Files/Fluoride%20&%20Aggression/WATER%20FLUORIDATION%20AND%20CRIME%20IN%20AMERICA%202005.pdf

http://news.sky.com/story/1035550/violent-crime-linked-to-levels-of-lead-in-air

lucky we live hawaii

most of the time anyway 

umm
occam's razor

that study that attempts to associate the CF3 group in prozac to F- in water is not scientific
the study is not from a peer-reviewed journal, it is a paper presented in an anti-flouride association journal
and the first footnote says more than you need to know about the validity of the data
a
The collecting of news stories utilized The Union Leader (Manchester, NH), and America Online; many of the
stories from these sources originated from The Associated Press or from Reuters. The stories were selected,
based on their content and on my intuition, from my routine daily reading, rather than from a methodical or
exhaustive search using, for example, keywords or search engines. Events were typically multiple murders,
usually with firearms, having an apparent “senseless” character to them. Events with known motives (except
crimes grossly disproportionate to their motives), or which were known to be gang- or drug-related, were
excluded. Domestic violence was excluded unless the victims included children. Stories were typically clipped, or
were downloaded and printed, and placed in a file; periodically, the file would be reviewed, and the fluoridation
status of the locations and of the perpetrators would be determined using the Fluoridation Census 1992.
American Automobile Association roadmaps for the entire United States were regularly consulted to gain
information about locations mentioned in news stories. In many cases telephone calls were made to get detailed
information about local water systems. Calls were also made, with far less success, to get information about
perpetrators and their life histories. Law enforcement personnel were generally reluctant to divulge much in the
aftermath of an event, while it was still being investigated. Efforts to gain information from news writers were
equally fruitless. In many instances, a succession of news stories over a period of time was needed to extract
basic information about an event, as the initial reporting about a multiple shooting might be sketchy. On several
occasions, after a major event, the news sources carried a list of 10 or 15 similar events—school shootings,
workplace shootings, etc. These event lists, if they included events I had not already listed, were typically
searched out using the Internet. This, along with current reporting of event sequelae, such as court proceedings,
provided an avenue for including events going back several years. These lists also provided a basis for
comparison: by the time I had accumulated 152 events, the database was more inclusive, by a factor of ten, than
the longest of these lists which the media had presented; yet it is by no means deemed to be exhaustive.

Accum, occam, scrotum.

 

Macsac
Umm
Anti-fluoride

We're talking about brain damage and a whole host of other peer reviewed scientific findings of poisoning in the human body through fluoride in drinking water… not Prozac. Prozac was simply noted as the red flag inspiring a deeper search into fluoride as an additive in water. More peer review research is surfacing daily that proves fluorides destructiveness in the human body.

Next time - It would be nice if you were to add quotes around citations derived from the source document.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/harvard-study-published-in-federal-government-journal-finds-fluoride-lowers-childrens-iq.html
http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/fluoridation.htm

Occam's Razor:

Asians/Pacific Islanders constitute less than 1% of prison inmates.---->Asians/Pacific Islanders are pretty law-abiding.------>Hawaii's population is mostly Asian/Pacific Islanders.
---->Hawaii has a low crime rate.

In my opinion, based on what I've researched, the comparison of any crime statistics on a state-by-state basis is tough to analyze.  I've found that stats by city are much better.  State data doesn't always paint a proper picture.  For example, Chicago is the worst city for murder rates, but Illinois is #11 by state.

Look at cities with the same or similar population sizes, economic growth, gang presence, etc.  That keeps the comparisons in the apples-to-apples realm.

Having said that, finding a causal relationship between violent crime and any environmental factor is very difficult.  Hawaii has many factors that might have an impact on the murder rate, both positively and negatively. 

Perhaps the lower rate of gun means the State has been successful making gun ownership too expensive and too difficult.  Perhaps the absence of gangs and other bad elements makes people feel safer here and less likely to need protection.  Maybe it's caused by economics ... when many have to work 2 jobs to live a decent life, the last thing they can afford are firearms, ammo, etc.

I personally believe Hawaii's gun rate/murder rate question is like this:
    The gun ownership rate is low BECAUSE crime rates are low.  (Less crime = less fear = fewer guns)
    Lower gun ownership in Hawaii did not cause a decrease in murders.  If that were true, then the islands are in trouble after these last 3 months of gun buying frenzy!

I bet if home invasions and random, gang-related murders suddenly spiked 4 fold, more and more people would be looking at getting pistol permits!

The real question should be, "What ,exactly, is keeping the murder rate so low in Hawaii, if not the strict restrictions on gun ownership?"

Cougar,
      How does that explanation pan out in the Philippines?   

sorry
"a
The collecting of news stories utilized The Union Leader (Manchester, NH), and America Online; many of the
stories from these sources originated from The Associated Press or from Reuters. The stories were selected,
based on their content and on my intuition, from my routine daily reading, rather than from a methodical or
exhaustive search using, for example, keywords or search engines. Events were typically multiple murders,
usually with firearms, having an apparent “senseless” character to them. Events with known motives (except
crimes grossly disproportionate to their motives), or which were known to be gang- or drug-related, were
excluded. Domestic violence was excluded unless the victims included children. Stories were typically clipped, or
were downloaded and printed, and placed in a file; periodically, the file would be reviewed, and the fluoridation
status of the locations and of the perpetrators would be determined using the Fluoridation Census 1992.
American Automobile Association roadmaps for the entire United States were regularly consulted to gain
information about locations mentioned in news stories. In many cases telephone calls were made to get detailed
information about local water systems. Calls were also made, with far less success, to get information about
perpetrators and their life histories. Law enforcement personnel were generally reluctant to divulge much in the
aftermath of an event, while it was still being investigated. Efforts to gain information from news writers were
equally fruitless. In many instances, a succession of news stories over a period of time was needed to extract
basic information about an event, as the initial reporting about a multiple shooting might be sketchy. On several
occasions, after a major event, the news sources carried a list of 10 or 15 similar events—school shootings,
workplace shootings, etc. These event lists, if they included events I had not already listed, were typically
searched out using the Internet. This, along with current reporting of event sequelae, such as court proceedings,
provided an avenue for including events going back several years. These lists also provided a basis for
comparison: by the time I had accumulated 152 events, the database was more inclusive, by a factor of ten, than
the longest of these lists which the media had presented; yet it is by no means deemed to be exhaustive."

your article link was better this time (the harvard study)

however, basic scientific facts are lacking in several cases on the second link (drlwilson)
fluorine gas (F2) is a toxic agent, just like chlorine gas (Cl2)
yet NaF (sodium fluoride) is bad, while NaCl (sodium chloride) is table salt
there is a distinct difference between elemental gas (-ine) and ions (-ide)
sodium fluoride is not used in rat poison, sodium fluoroacetate was (warfarin is used now- should we ban warfarin because it is used as a rat poison?)
sodium fluoride is not used in sarin nerve gas, yes it has a P(O)F group in it, but that has nothing to do with fluoride ion
until the anti-fluoridation groups get off the misinformation and stick to the facts, they only appear as fear-mongerers

next time- it would be nice if you used a small m and a k in "macsak"
this is getting way off topic, so i will stop now

Macsac
Umm
Anti-fluoride

We're talking about brain damage and a whole host of other peer reviewed scientific findings of poisoning in the human body through fluoride in drinking water… not Prozac. Prozac was simply noted as the red flag inspiring a deeper search into fluoride as an additive in water. More peer review research is surfacing daily that proves fluorides destructiveness in the human body.

Next time - It would be nice if you were to add quotes around citations derived from the source document.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/harvard-study-published-in-federal-government-journal-finds-fluoride-lowers-childrens-iq.html
http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/fluoridation.htm

Moosed,
      I agree with much of what you’re stating. Environment on many levels will dictate the statistics but much of this statistic has to do with mental health in the case of murder outside self protection and those things effecting mental health will be the largest contributors to the stats. The rudiments of mental health begin with physical and emotional development and extend into our social environment. Compromising either of the primary basics can result in mental disorders. Some of the basics we have here in Hawaii with regard to physical environment advantages is our global position between the tropical latitudes, effectively creating year round exposure to the correct solar angle for the body’s effective natural development of vitamin D3 ( a proven vitamin that when lacking often leads to depression and many other physical illnesses). Something as simple as Vitamin D3 can have a huge impact on social behaviors/interactions as well. When we begin to look at the physical environmental advantages, we have an unparalleled advantage in many ways to that of the rest of the nation. Other violent crimes in the state can be much attributed to primal needs but murder itself is most often committed under conditions of mental adversity. So if we look at the D3 advantage, lack of fluoridated water, low levels of airborne lead, etc. We can see a more physically healthy environment emerging and from that base, a better emotional wellness can be established.  There’s always going to be exceptions to the conditions but as an overall consideration, the advantages are pretty clear. The larger part of my original point revolves around governments roll in securing the general welfare of mental wellness, ways to promote it and things to watch out for with regard to those things that can compromise such an effort.  When we have representatives that blindly rush forward with gun initiatives, we are simply wasting resources, which in this case, will result in the opposite effects on the desired outcome.

macsak - 

     I've heard it more than a few times - Boastings of Hawaii's Gun laws and low number of guns being responsible for the lowest murder rate in the USA.  A statistic that does not add up with other stats across the globe let alone the remainder of USA. There has to be another reason for this oddity.
Lets apply Accums Razor -
Keep in mind along with the above, Hawaii does not put fluoride in its water supply and our air is relatively lead free to that of the rest of the occupied world.
Read through the following links and you will see why Hawaii has such a low murder rate. Pass this information on to those around you.

http://dianabuckland.webs.com/Div%20Added%20Files/Fluoride%20&%20Aggression/WATER%20FLUORIDATION%20AND%20CRIME%20IN%20AMERICA%202005.pdf

http://news.sky.com/story/1035550/violent-crime-linked-to-levels-of-lead-in-air

if you were really applying Occam's Razor, im not sure if you;d be making such a bold leap as to be blaming fluoridated water.

a far simpler, and thus more in line with what Occam's Razor requires, would be to look at the fact that violence is much higher in metropolitan areas infested with warring drug gangs.

fluoridated water theory is some chemtrail level paranoia.

In my opinion, based on what I've researched, the comparison of any crime statistics on a state-by-state basis is tough to analyze.  I've found that stats by city are much better.  State data doesn't always paint a proper picture.  For example, Chicago is the worst city for murder rates, but Illinois is #11 by state.

Look at cities with the same or similar population sizes, economic growth, gang presence, etc.  That keeps the comparisons in the apples-to-apples realm.

Having said that, finding a causal relationship between violent crime and any environmental factor is very difficult.  Hawaii has many factors that might have an impact on the murder rate, both positively and negatively. 

Perhaps the lower rate of gun means the State has been successful making gun ownership too expensive and too difficult.  Perhaps the absence of gangs and other bad elements makes people feel safer here and less likely to need protection.  Maybe it's caused by economics ... when many have to work 2 jobs to live a decent life, the last thing they can afford are firearms, ammo, etc.

I personally believe Hawaii's gun rate/murder rate question is like this:
    The gun ownership rate is low BECAUSE crime rates are low.  (Less crime = less fear = fewer guns)
    Lower gun ownership in Hawaii did not cause a decrease in murders.  If that were true, then the islands are in trouble after these last 3 months of gun buying frenzy!

I bet if home invasions and random, gang-related murders suddenly spiked 4 fold, more and more people would be looking at getting pistol permits!

The real question should be, "What ,exactly, is keeping the murder rate so low in Hawaii, if not the strict restrictions on gun ownership?"

lack of drug gangs and the street wars they cause.

next.

MDS http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/thumbsup.gif
thanks for keeping it civil
i was trying to illustrate a point about the anti-gun/pro-gun debate and trying to see what kind of reaction i could get out of you on fluoridation
and unfortunately, i was not able to illustrate it fully because you refused to let me bait you into getting emotional
we were lucky that no anti-gun people showed up the other week on gun appreciation day
i don't know how much resistance we will get this friday, but at some point, there will be potential confrontations taking place
it is better not to engage, or just to simply refute their claims by stating simple facts
the ADA taught us to use the exact same tactic i was using with MDS
just say, "that's not scientific"
if you get sucked in to spouting off and getting emotional you lose
it does not further our cause and frankly, the media will use those images against us

i promise to try and stay out of fluoride discussions from now on
note i said, "try"
http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/shaka.gif

Moosed,
      I agree with much of what you’re stating. Environment on many levels will dictate the statistics but much of this statistic has to do with mental health in the case of murder outside self protection and those things effecting mental health will be the largest contributors to the stats. The rudiments of mental health begin with physical and emotional development and extend into our social environment. Compromising either of the primary basics can result in mental disorders. Some of the basics we have here in Hawaii with regard to physical environment advantages is our global position between the tropical latitudes, effectively creating year round exposure to the correct solar angle for the body’s effective natural development of vitamin D3 ( a proven vitamin that when lacking often leads to depression and many other physical illnesses). Something as simple as Vitamin D3 can have a huge impact on social behaviors/interactions as well. When we begin to look at the physical environmental advantages, we have an unparalleled advantage in many ways to that of the rest of the nation. Other violent crimes in the state can be much attributed to primal needs but murder itself is most often committed under conditions of mental adversity. So if we look at the D3 advantage, lack of fluoridated water, low levels of airborne lead, etc. We can see a more physically healthy environment emerging and from that base, a better emotional wellness can be established.  There’s always going to be exceptions to the conditions but as an overall consideration, the advantages are pretty clear. The larger part of my original point revolves around governments roll in securing the general welfare of mental wellness, ways to promote it and things to watch out for with regard to those things that can compromise such an effort.  When we have representatives that blindly rush forward with gun initiatives, we are simply wasting resources, which in this case, will result in the opposite effects on the desired outcome.

macsak - 

great discussion, but you are only looking at environmental factors
you did mention their effect on emotional wellness
but i think it's more cultural/religious,etc
there are distinct differences is the religious backgrounds of asian/pacific islanders vs whites/blacks/hispanics
asian/paciific islanders are much more likely to be part of the "eastern" religions vs whites/blacks/hispanics are much more likely to be catholic/protestant/mormon
with the major exceptions of filipinos/catholic and pacific islanders/mormon
depending if you believe in the "model minority" theory, asian/pacific islanders are newer immigrants, thus they are more likely to stress education, following the rules, and "fitting in"
and it's mostly a stereotype, but asian/pacific islanders tend to be more "laid back" than some of the other ethnic groups

Moosed,
      I agree with much of what you’re stating. Environment on many levels will dictate the statistics but much of this statistic has to do with mental health in the case of murder outside self protection and those things effecting mental health will be the largest contributors to the stats. The rudiments of mental health begin with physical and emotional development and extend into our social environment. Compromising either of the primary basics can result in mental disorders. Some of the basics we have here in Hawaii with regard to physical environment advantages is our global position between the tropical latitudes, effectively creating year round exposure to the correct solar angle for the body’s effective natural development of vitamin D3 ( a proven vitamin that when lacking often leads to depression and many other physical illnesses). Something as simple as Vitamin D3 can have a huge impact on social behaviors/interactions as well. When we begin to look at the physical environmental advantages, we have an unparalleled advantage in many ways to that of the rest of the nation. Other violent crimes in the state can be much attributed to primal needs but murder itself is most often committed under conditions of mental adversity. So if we look at the D3 advantage, lack of fluoridated water, low levels of airborne lead, etc. We can see a more physically healthy environment emerging and from that base, a better emotional wellness can be established.  There’s always going to be exceptions to the conditions but as an overall consideration, the advantages are pretty clear. The larger part of my original point revolves around governments roll in securing the general welfare of mental wellness, ways to promote it and things to watch out for with regard to those things that can compromise such an effort.  When we have representatives that blindly rush forward with gun initiatives, we are simply wasting resources, which in this case, will result in the opposite effects on the desired outcome.

macsak - 

I didn't read all that but I will.  We don't have the murder problems simply because of our unique demographics being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.  That's my take on it and one of the biggest reasons why I moved back.  No murderous crypts and bloods, no MS-13 or nortes y surenos.  I hope we keep it that way.

Chemtrails; Is that really appropriate? I wouldn’t call scientific findings and NAS recommendations addressed to the department of health and human services and scientific correlations between violence, mental health and fluoride poisoning a chemtrail level argument. Nor is it when the CDC recently steps in also. Not that I will partake in it or be derailed by it, but if you want to delve into chemtrail spirited subjects you could go back to the 1940’s and pull up recently declassified documents revolving about the Manhattan Project and the Atomic Energy Commission accompanied by the role of the toxicology department at the University of Rochester, under the direction of Harold Hodge in developing information to safeguard the government against possible fluoride poisoning law suits brought about by the public. The paperwork is there within national archives stamped “SECRET”.

Back to present realities –

From the following we see “suggestive rather than definitive” and we’ve since found a correlation pointing at fluorides role in assisting lead absorption.

“Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Otago Medical School, Dunedin, New Zealand.
Abstract -
Although the blood-brain barrier is relatively impermeable to fluoride, it does not pose an absolute barrier and fluoride has the ability to enter the brain. The literature was examined to assess the quality of the evidence for cerebral impairment occurring due to exposure to fluoride from therapeutic or environmental sources. Several surveys of persons chronically exposed to industrial fluoride pollution reported symptoms related to impaired central nervous system functioning with impaired cognition and memory. Examination of individual case reports showed the evidence for aetiological relationships between symptoms and fluoride exposure to be of variable quality. The evidence was seen as being suggestive of a relationship rather than being definitive. The difficulties with concentration and memory described in relation to exposure to fluoride did not occur in isolation but were accompanied by other symptoms of which general malaise and fatigue were central. Possible mechanisms whereby fluoride could affect brain function include influencing calcium currents, altering enzyme configuration by forming strong hydrogen bonds with amide groups, inhibiting cortical adenylyl cyclase activity and increasing phosphoinositide hydrolysis.
PMID:
8056997
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]”

Source for continued reading of the above abstract  - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8056997

Other research –
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8747751

On another side note regarding Street Gangs –
Street Gangs are a social issue across the US, regardless of state. edit to add - Why haven’t our gangs in Hawaii “stepped it up a level”?
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14694941/special-report-youth-gangs-in-hawaii

Anyhow... I just wanted to bring this issue to light as it does play a role in the subject overall. Whether one wants to accept that is up to he or she but being armed with additional information can be useful at times.

macsak – I wasn’t expecting a person who would actually take the time to scrutinize the particulars (a true exception these days and a compliment). I could spend a great deal of time pulling up more valid work on the matter but I’m pretty sure you can see the validity in the argument with the additional citations. Also to add - what are the fundamental sources of "culture" and where is that experience derived from? The root becomes environment - climate, food and shelter source, etc. Correct?

aloha MDS
you seem like an intelligent, thoughtful person, and very well spoken
so yes, it is a compliment to you
if we should ever meet, first beer is on me

i apologize for being pedantic, but i was just trying to illustrate the point  about how two sides of an issue can be so opposite and so heated that it takes away from either sides' viewpoints and positions
and to your credit, you didn't take my bait http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/geekdanc.gif
we need to avoid the anti-gun crowd getting us to react emotionally especially on demonstration days where there may be press present
and also need to remember that everyone with a cellphone becomes a "citizen journalist" that can make us look bad on youtube, etc

i will from this point on endeavor to stay away from the topic of fluoridated water
as you can probably guess, i am a dentist, so this subject is very dear to me too

re: culture
an interesting point about location and resources
never thought about it that way
you look at where the roots of "civilization" were formed (tigris/euphrates, lidat') you can say that the river deltas provided rich lands and available water
which allowed people to set down "roots" and begin to be settlers rather than nomads
and then they could develop society and culture
plus access to open ocean allowed trade to develop too (once other civilizations were started)
not sure where this thought is going, but you definitely have me thinking

macsak – I wasn’t expecting a person who would actually take the time to scrutinize the particulars (a true exception these days and a compliment). I could spend a great deal of time pulling up more valid work on the matter but I’m pretty sure you can see the validity in the argument with the additional citations. Also to add - what are the fundamental sources of "culture" and where is that experience derived from? The root becomes environment - climate, food and shelter source, etc. Correct?
[/quote]

Aloha macsak,

       When that time comes, the second round is on me. 

       I do agree that we need to be careful about being baited into arguments and I would also agree Fluoride isn’t perhaps the best avenue for attempts to garner an eye off gun control measures. But at the heart of the matter, mental wellness does need a greater focus at the legislative level. I know that we all here in this forum already recognize the absurdity in “assault style weapons” bans and magazine limits, etc. I’m really hoping the courts come through for us on the many other gun matters.

       My education has inspired a great deal of study in physics theory related matters and through that, I’ve been exposed to a great number of readjustment with regard to supposed laws (physical) and accepted theory. I’ve experienced many heated debates regarding the matter and found long ago that rigid perspectives are our worst enemy with regard to expedited advancements in understanding.  When I’ve applied an outline considerate to the multi faceted perspectives present, I’ve found excellent results with regard to broad acceptances. In as much, I’ve also seen our directions mature while shedding many antiquated notions. Unfortunately our wide array of disciplines often limit our perspectives and hence hinder effective communication, be it through our applied terminology differences or our general narrow corridor of concern/discipline. The sciences though “scientific” still harbor a variety of doctrine/canon that effectively separate us from one another. 

     The sad part of this entire issue, it’s our sciences that should be leading our way through this time of trouble and yet we hear little to nothing of undeniable substance. Be that a result of suppression or division I’m not certain. One thing is for certain, we are facing some serious issues and we need to make the correct choices at this time or there will be troublesome consequences.  Societal experimentation at all levels needs limitation and we seem to be doing just the opposite in many cases.

Cougar,
      How does that explanation pan out in the Philippines?   

Haha, good point.  Grinding poverty brings out the worst in people, and when you throw in a dash of Islamic terrorism, you've got a lot of violence on your hands.  Look at the crime rates in other Asian countries; Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, all of them have low crime rates, so I'd say that the Pilippines is the exception that proves the rule!