This is just My Opinion but...
 
  I believe the law Makers are worried that if all the "locals" stated carrying guns everywhere that the turists would get scared and stop coming.  I may be way off but a uniformed, badged, armed LEO is a comfort to must, but all kinds of "common" people with guns would just be scary to alot of foriegners!  Do any of you agree or disagree?

This is a very true statement, and one of the largest reasons why conceal carry will be restored to Hawaii.  I would prefer a option of open or concealed, but the tourism industry will only allow for one.

Book, "Death By Government"  by R. J. Rummel a UH professor, updated every now and then.
 
Very interesting and eye opening.
 
 

I think what's tonsofguns is trying to say is the double standard of our justice system. 

Book, "Death By Government"  by R. J. Rummel a UH professor, updated every now and then.
 
Very interesting and eye opening.

It does look interesting. I also found some of it on a UH website.

I think what's tonsofguns is trying to say is the double standard of our justice system. 

I too think that is what most folks, and not just us "gun guys" are concerned about. First, to clarify things, governments have soverign immunity, which is sometimes carried over to the individuals in the government. Qualified immunity is generally the issue with police officers.
 

“Qualified immunity balances two important interests—the need to hold public officials accountable when they exercise power irresponsibly and the need to shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably.” Pearson v. Callahan (07-751). Specifically, it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right. When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights. Courts conducting this analysis apply the law that was in force at the time of the alleged violation, not the law in effect when the court considers the case.
Qualified immunity is not immunity from having to pay money damages, but rather immunity from having to go through the costs of a trial at all. Accordingly, courts must resolve qualified immunity issues as early in a case as possible, preferably before discovery.
Qualified immunity only applies to suits against government officials as individuals, not suits against the government for damages caused by the officials’ actions. Although qualified immunity frequently appears in cases involving police officers, it also applies to most other executive branch officials. While judges, prosecutors, legislators, and some other government officials do not receive qualified immunity, most are protected by other immunity doctrines.

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/qualified_immunity
 
And while there are some cases of police being tried and convicted of crimes, there are many where it appears those officers involved did receive some special protections or were cut a little more "slack" than your ordinary citizen.
 
For example, what do you think would have happened in the generally gun unfriendly state of Mass. to an ordinary citizen who did this:

drove drunk, crashed his car on a Dorchester street, pointed his gun at a Boston police officer, and later fired his gun into the ceiling of his home.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/09/trooper_to_be_a.html?p1=News_links
 
Well, first the ordinary citizen would have to be grateful if he survived after pointing his gun at a police officer. But in this instance not only did the guy who went on the rampage survive, he was released on his own recognizance.
 
And here's another case case with an interesting twist in that the honest officer who investigates the coverup of an unlawful assault on a driver by a DEA agent is forced to "retire early" for not standing united with those attempting the cover up....and note that those officers involved were not charged or convicted of anything related to the beating and the DEA agent is still employed....
 
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/25/2250584/exposing-agent-costs-kck-detective.html
 
There are plenty of other, similar cases. And, the reason I am interested in them is not to disparage the police or because I have something "against the man" but rather to assail the oft used meme that only police are qualified to carry guns for protection. It is clear that the police are no more infalliable than the rest of us and ergo that the rest of us should not be denied the right to carry firearms for personal protection based on that false meme.
 
 

Another example...what would have happened if you or I did this??

DENVER - A Gilpin County Sheriff's deputy was allowed to fly from Denver International Airport Sunday, even after Denver Police confiscated his personal handgun and a loaded magazine from his carry-on luggage....

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=156548&catid=339

Just out of curiosity, how does this discourse further the goals of 2aH? I COMPLETELY understand the frustration presented this thread, but attacking the police is NOT going to help us get in their good graces. Look, it's no secret that there is a major disconnect between the LEOs and the gun owners here in Hawaii...this is probably one of the BIGGEST differences between Hawaii (and other anti-gun states) and the pro-gun states. It is also one of the easiest (although slow) things to change through positive interaction (i.e.: inviting LEOs to our meetings). Having the police on the side of gun owners is a SIGNIFICANT step towards "shall issue" laws, among other things.

- Alex

I don't think I am attacking the police, nor am I being anti-police. But factual responses to those who believe that police are the only ones trained enough to be able to carry guns are always appropriate retorts to an emotional argument against concealed carry.

Example:

Anti: Citizens are not trained and therefore will not be able to hit their intended target or will panic and shoot at an innocent person.
2A: Like this guy?
http://www.laindependent.com/news/local/west-hollywood/deputy-west-hollywood-liquor-store-clerk-shooting-sheriff-104253944.html

""The deputy fired eight rounds and missed him,'' Ault told WeHo News. “Ultimately, deputies determined that the man the deputy fired upon was the store's clerk who was pointing to them trying to get their attention.'' 

Anti: That idiot that tried to take his gun on the plane should be thrown in jail...he's obviously lying or too stupid to be trusted with a gun, let alone a CCW
2A:   Like this guy?
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=156548&catid=339

DENVER - A Gilpin County Sheriff's deputy was allowed to fly from Denver International Airport Sunday, even after Denver Police confiscated his personal handgun and a loaded magazine from his carry-on luggage....

I don't think there is a big disconnect between the police the gun community...cops who shoot know us and support us, even if they cannot do so in a "too public" way. Did you know the cops who work the gun show are volunteers?  Notice you see the same cops every year? It is the brass, the politician cops who are our concern. And, iroinically the ones most likely to try and present the "we're the only ones trained enough" argument in response to any effort to get CCW. Until we change the political "climate," here, or until we get a police chief with an unusual disregard for his career, we're unlikely to see any change from the HPD brass.

But you are right in that the more police we can get to support us, both publically and "behind the scenes," the better we should be able to do. How do you balance using factual evidence to refute emotional arguments and not appear to bash all cops?

The big disconnect is between police administration and their "perception" of what they think the public Needs to be protected from.
 
Not to mention that it cuts into their eliteist mentality.  If the general puclic carried guns, who needs the police.....
Most HPD officers have little or no experience with firearms, if they are a product of the public school system, then the majority
were not taught to "be all they can be" in sense of major individualism.
 
The Wife has been told by several HPD officers (pro 2A) who have seen her shoot, that she is better than a lot of officers who have little or no
interest in firearms.  These are the officers that consider a gun a "tool of the trade" and not a Life Saving device.
 
The majority of gun owners are highly independent Individuals with a "can do" atitude.
 
Case in point.  In a Major emergency, like a Cat 5 Hurricane, Tsunami, or earthquake, how many of you would go to a shelter if your home is
damaged but still livable? 
Would you go before or After the hurricane/tsunami?
 
I asked this question on the Hawaii forum and on several gun forums.  99.9% said they'd stay.  I think only 1 said they'd go only if nothing was left and they couldn't go to a relative's place.
 
I have a class mate from 1st grade, an O supporter (even now), who said that he would go to a shelter when they ran out of food.  Not because the home was wrecked.  The Wife and other friends really don't think too much of him.....
 
The various PDs that support 2A are those with Chiefs who are in tune with the people they work for.  They are the one that encourage their
citizens to come and get their CCW permit and make it easy for them to acquire it. 
 If i went to my Wife's friend's home in Minnesota, I can get a non resident permit fairly easily.  Downside is that it will be mailed to home here in Hawaii and I can use it Next time I visit Minnesota.
If I went with my other friend to his small Texas (50,000+ population) I can have my Texas permit in 5 days and use it for the rest of the time
I'm in Texas.
If I vist my friend in Juneau, Alaska, I don't need a permit to carry.  Juneau is the capitol of Alaska and is smaller than Kailua in population.
 
IF we can Change One local Chief to issue a CCW permit, the dam will burst.  All we need is one Chief to issue that One permit.....
 
 

If I vist my friend in Juneau, Alaska, I don't need a permit to carry.  Juneau is the capitol of Alaska and is smaller than Kailua in population.

Why are they not shooting each other dead on a daily basis? Haha. JK

Alaska is cool!

If I went with my other friend to his small Texas (50,000+ population) I can have my Texas permit in 5 days and use it for the rest of the time I'm in Texas

How would you get this? Texas CHL has a minimum of 60 days processing before they issue.

Alaska, even in Summer can get Cold for me.  Especially when it rains.
Love to hear the sound of FULL AUTO echoing across the water when I was fishing there.
I think Alaska has more guns per capita than any other place in the US.
The only thing that locals will tell you is Please do not open carry when the tour boats are in town, tends to get the tourists upset.
They're not used to people walking around with loaded guns.  Out of town is not a problem.  Recommended in fact.
A black bear with cub walked thru the lodge area when I was there.  Not to mention a grumpy Female Grizzly was also in the area.
The lodge kept a Loaded 12 ga right next to the front door, "just in case".....
My good friend just retired from the EMT service as a senior admin guy.  He tells me that there has never been a problem with CCW in Alaska.
 
RE Texas, that's what my friend was told when he went back home to his "small" town.  He can get his non res permit in 5 days.
Guess it all depends on where you are and the attitude of the Chief.  Back then, the Chief Actively Encouraged the people in his town
to get CCW permits.
As a side note, several years later, in that town, a citizen with a CCW carrying a 45 1911 took on an Unhappy man with an AK-47(full auto/supressors is legal in Texas), that was shooting up the town courthouse.  The citizen took him on at 75 yards.  He lost, but slowed the bad guy down enough that DPS and the Sherriff's Deputies got him.  The citizen was called Hero by Texas Law Enforcement.
 
Remember the local guy Pagan that was in a Texas prison and escaped, raped a local woman and was caught in Mexico?
It was Open Season on him.  Almost every major county highway intersection had a Deputy backed up by local hunters looking for him.
He was lucky the Mexican cops found him and returned him to Texas.  Don't want to imagine what he'd look like if the locals got him.
 
All boils down to how law enforcement in an area looks at guns.  They know the pros and cons and the Good guys get to carry.
 
 
 

^Old Guy, you always have the most interesting posts. 

Case in point.  In a Major emergency, like a Cat 5 Hurricane, Tsunami, or earthquake, how many of you would go to a shelter if your home is
damaged but still livable? 
Would you go before or After the hurricane/tsunami?
 
I asked this question on the Hawaii forum and on several gun forums.  99.9% said they'd stay.  I think only 1 said they'd go only if nothing was left and they couldn't go to a relative's place.

I'd be in the 99% who stay.  I can provide for myself and my family on my property much more efficently than any government run disaster program.   The living conditions would be cleaner and more comfortable at home, the food would be better, we'd be safer, and in the long run it'd probably end up costing less.  Gosh, a private enterprise doing things more efficently than the public sector...  who'd have thought.

Quote

If I vist my friend in Juneau, Alaska, I don't need a permit to carry.  Juneau is the capitol of Alaska and is smaller than Kailua in population.

Why are they not shooting each other dead on a daily basis? Haha. JK

Alaska is cool!

If I remember correctly, Alaska has the most lax gun control, but also has the highest gun death per capita. May be totally false or outdated. If true, must be all the alocholics O_o.

^Old Guy, you always have the most interesting posts. 

Quote from: Old Guy on October 06, 2010, 02:57:37 AM

Case in point.  In a Major emergency, like a Cat 5 Hurricane, Tsunami, or earthquake, how many of you would go to a shelter if your home is
damaged but still livable? 
Would you go before or After the hurricane/tsunami?
 
I asked this question on the Hawaii forum and on several gun forums.  99.9% said they'd stay.  I think only 1 said they'd go only if nothing was left and they couldn't go to a relative's place.

I'd be in the 99% who stay.  I can provide for myself and my family on my property much more efficently than any government run disaster program.   The living conditions would be cleaner and more comfortable at home, the food would be better, we'd be safer, and in the long run it'd probably end up costing less.  Gosh, a private enterprise doing things more efficently than the public sector...  who'd have thought.

You got that right bro!

 RE Texas, that's what my friend was told when he went back home to his "small" town.  He can get his non res permit in 5 days.
Guess it all depends on where you are and the attitude of the Chief.  Back then, the Chief Actively Encouraged the people in his town
to get CCW permits

Fortunately in Texas (my home state) the Chief of Police (or any LEO/political figure head) has no say in whether you get or don't get a permit. You can get a TEXAS CHL without living there, but you must take the course in the state. You can carry in Texas and in states that recognize Texas NON-Resident CHL. Process time is still about 60 days. Hell, they even have an online application process...
 
Read all about it!:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm

I've never been to Texas.
 
Just repeating what my friend told me when he went back home to visit his parents.
 
He was chatting with a local Sgt who told him his LIFE class for Hawaii Certification is OK and can get his CCW permit in a week.
Carry for the rest of the time he was there.
 
He's one of the "good old boys".  Tell you stories you can't believe, but they're true.
 
As a summer job, one of his duties was to dynamite harden cow manure piles.  BIG piles of Sh-t.
Or the time he and some friends tried to dynamite the only tree for miles aroung and had an old man drive
past just when the charge went off.  FWIW, trees don't cut like they do in the TV and movies......
 
He wants me to go bird hunting with him back home.  Just so he can watch me go full auto(with a pump shotgun)
the first time a rattlesnake scares me.......
 
Honest, I do not make these stories up.   
 
One of his sayings about heavy rain, "Tall cow pissing on a flat rock".
 
Yeah, he's full of them......
 
 

If I remember correctly, Alaska has the most lax gun control, but also has the highest gun death per capita. May be totally false or outdated. If true, must be all the alocholics O_o.

Actually per: http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000, DC has the highest gun 'Death' rate, and Alaska is second. 
 
Odd, I thought DC's gun laws where one of the strictest in the nation? 
 
However, Gun 'Deaths' are not the same as Gun 'Murders'.  Apples and oranges.  A quick serch on 'Gun homicide By State' did not show any quick numbers.  I need more time to research this further, but my intinct tells me that gun 'Murder' will be higher amongst states where guns are strictly controlled for law abiding citizens.
 
Other interesting read on firearm murder rates:
From:  http://gunowners.org/op0746.htm

For example, though Norway has far and away the highest firearm ownership per capita in Western Europe, it nevertheless has the lowest murder rate. Other nations with high firearms ownership and comparably low murder rates include Denmark, Greece, Switzerland, Germany and Austria. Holland has a 50 percent higher murder rate despite having the lowest rate of firearm ownership in Europe. And Luxembourg, despite its total handgun ban, has a murder rate that is nine times higher than countries such as Norway and Austria.

In the rare case in which gun bans work, murderers use other weapons. Eight decades of police-state enforcement of handgun prohibition have kept Russian gun ownership low, resulting in few gun murders. Yet Russia's murder rates have long been four times higher than those in the U.S. and 20 times higher than rates in countries such as Norway. Former Soviet nations like Lithuania also ban handguns and severely restrict other guns, yet have 10-15 times higher murder rates than European nations with much higher gun ownership.

Quote

If I remember correctly, Alaska has the most lax gun control, but also has the highest gun death per capita. May be totally false or outdated. If true, must be all the alocholics O_o.

Actually per: http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000, DC has the highest gun 'Death' rate, and Alaska is second. 
 
Odd, I thought DC's gun laws where one of the strictest in the nation? 
 
However, Gun 'Deaths' are not the same as Gun 'Murders'.  Apples and oranges.  A quick serch on 'Gun homicide By State' did not show any quick numbers.  I need more time to research this further, but my intinct tells me that gun 'Murder' will be higher amongst states where guns are strictly controlled for law abiding citizens.
 
Other interesting read on firearm murder rates:
From:  http://gunowners.org/op0746.htm

Quote

For example, though Norway has far and away the highest firearm ownership per capita in Western Europe, it nevertheless has the lowest murder rate. Other nations with high firearms ownership and comparably low murder rates include Denmark, Greece, Switzerland, Germany and Austria. Holland has a 50 percent higher murder rate despite having the lowest rate of firearm ownership in Europe. And Luxembourg, despite its total handgun ban, has a murder rate that is nine times higher than countries such as Norway and Austria.

Quote

In the rare case in which gun bans work, murderers use other weapons. Eight decades of police-state enforcement of handgun prohibition have kept Russian gun ownership low, resulting in few gun murders. Yet Russia's murder rates have long been four times higher than those in the U.S. and 20 times higher than rates in countries such as Norway. Former Soviet nations like Lithuania also ban handguns and severely restrict other guns, yet have 10-15 times higher murder rates than European nations with much higher gun ownership.

Take a look at Hawaii and "Homicide victims by other weapons"  to put this in perspective