DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$ (Read 30169 times)

ImKu

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 08:41:11 AM »
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2013, 11:23:53 AM »
I offer ammo, a venue, a nationally approved course of fire for you to put your LWRC up against rack grade miltary rifles and you wimp out......
How else are you going to compare your stuff against DI systems? Swimsuit and Evening Gown categories?.
....just saying.......


Well Teichi I offer you a laid back spot, bunch of cool guys and a range that goes out to well..........maybe 1400 meters?  Why don't you come out to KR-3 the next time it's available? If you aren't a club member, I'll sponsor you.

How do I compare the DI vs the piston, I've shot mine as I own both.  I offered Ren the opportunity to shoot one of my pistons and he took me up on it.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch, but if you want I can buy you a looser pair of granny panties.

drck1000

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2013, 12:40:29 PM »

Well Teichi I offer you a laid back spot, bunch of cool guys and a range that goes out to well..........maybe 1400 meters?  Why don't you come out to KR-3 the next time it's available? If you aren't a club member, I'll sponsor you.

How do I compare the DI vs the piston, I've shot mine as I own both.  I offered Ren the opportunity to shoot one of my pistons and he took me up on it.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch, but if you want I can buy you a looser pair of granny panties.
I wasn't able to make it out to KR-3 yesterday, but next time we're out there, I'd love to give your gun a try!  I've been meaning to get my Rem 700 out to KR-3, but haven't had the chance yet.  Sounds like we won't have a range until June though.   :(

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2013, 01:18:15 PM »
I wasn't able to make it out to KR-3 yesterday, but next time we're out there, I'd love to give your gun a try!  I've been meaning to get my Rem 700 out to KR-3, but haven't had the chance yet.  Sounds like we won't have a range until June though.   :(

No probs man, just let me know which one you want to try out.  I think Ren did my SPR (5.56), you can do that one and the REPR (7.62).  Also I believe 338Lapua is once again approved for use at KR-3, so hopefully the guys with the longe range equipment will be able to come out and use their rifles.

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2013, 05:02:10 PM »

Well Teichi I offer you a laid back spot, bunch of cool guys and a range that goes out to well..........maybe 1400 meters?  Why don't you come out to KR-3 the next time it's available? If you aren't a club member, I'll sponsor you.

How do I compare the DI vs the piston, I've shot mine as I own both.  I offered Ren the opportunity to shoot one of my pistons and he took me up on it.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch, but if you want I can buy you a looser pair of granny panties.

KR3 is a heavily used range for crew served weapons qualification and unknown distance long range marksmanship. Targets past 300 meters are also in Depleted Uranium (DU) contamination area. Only range maintenance crew can go out there to set up or paint the long range targets (Steel Silhouettes). Spotting and accurately recording shot groups will be difficult if you can only do a hit or miss spot. A quality spotting scope will barely be able to see the splash on steel past 500 meters. Deployments are drawing down and both tenant brigades are back and using all the shooting ranges. 2 weekends a month the KRs, CRs and MFs are shut down for maintenance. The other weekends are shared between the Reserves and Guard. SRGC is at the bottom of the list for using KR3. I know this because I sit in the resource conferences to reserve training land.

Targets at Puuloa are paper and graduated for minute of angle. Hits can be marked and verified by the target pullers and then viewed with the spotting scopes on the firing line. There are slowfire and rapidfire stages that can test the controllability, accuracy and function of the rifle and ammo. I can request ranges a year out at Puuloa if needed. If you don't like the competition part, I can set you on the wing targets and you can shoot in the prone off a bipod or sandbag the entire time as long as you stay within the time sequences for the course of fire and as long as your rifle does not have a muzzlebrake that blasts the other shooters.

 What I offer is a place to shoot and learn marksmanship techniques with US Service Rifles and Pistols. We have shooters and coaches/instructors from the Army, Marines, and National Guard with proven techniqes for both competition and combat. 

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:06 PM »
No probs man, just let me know which one you want to try out.  I think Ren did my SPR (5.56), you can do that one and the REPR (7.62).  Also I believe 338Lapua is once again approved for use at KR-3, so hopefully the guys with the longe range equipment will be able to come out and use their rifles.

I was wondering why Ren's shooting was getting worse.

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2013, 06:50:59 PM »
KR3 is a heavily used range for crew served weapons qualification and unknown distance long range marksmanship. Targets past 300 meters are also in Depleted Uranium (DU) contamination area. Only range maintenance crew can go out there to set up or paint the long range targets (Steel Silhouettes). Spotting and accurately recording shot groups will be difficult if you can only do a hit or miss spot. A quality spotting scope will barely be able to see the splash on steel past 500 meters. Deployments are drawing down and both tenant brigades are back and using all the shooting ranges. 2 weekends a month the KRs, CRs and MFs are shut down for maintenance. The other weekends are shared between the Reserves and Guard. SRGC is at the bottom of the list for using KR3. I know this because I sit in the resource conferences to reserve training land.

Targets at Puuloa are paper and graduated for minute of angle. Hits can be marked and verified by the target pullers and then viewed with the spotting scopes on the firing line. There are slowfire and rapidfire stages that can test the controllability, accuracy and function of the rifle and ammo. I can request ranges a year out at Puuloa if needed. If you don't like the competition part, I can set you on the wing targets and you can shoot in the prone off a bipod or sandbag the entire time as long as you stay within the time sequences for the course of fire and as long as your rifle does not have a muzzlebrake that blasts the other shooters.

 What I offer is a place to shoot and learn marksmanship techniques with US Service Rifles and Pistols. We have shooters and coaches/instructors from the Army, Marines, and National Guard with proven techniqes for both competition and combat.


Again I respect that you folks want to shoot structured competition, but that is not for me.  As for spotting splash, setup of targets, etc. all true, but I guarantee you that I can spot splash on the berm at about 900 yds.  Took me a fair amount of ammo to walk my shots out there.  Distances.........for some reason my rangefinder really gets spotty (to not returning any information) on that range beyond 250-300 yds.


If you can arrange the Puuloa range for AR based firearms that would be great, I would think that there are a bunch of us here who would take you up on that.  Keep in mind though that some of our stuff might not be strictly US issue, so I'd rather not have a bunch of guys getting upset if I bring out a REPR (AR10 based, side charging handle, muzzle brake, etc.) or a SR9TC (HK91 based, non-US, etc.).  I know there was quite a broohaha a while back about some guys shooting out there with non US based cartridges.

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2013, 06:51:25 PM »
I was wondering why Ren's shooting was getting worse.

You'll need to talk to Ren about the SPR.   ;D

ren

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2013, 09:09:32 PM »
I was wondering why Ren's shooting was getting worse.
mid age crisis
Deeds Not Words

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2013, 09:52:28 PM »

Again I respect that you folks want to shoot structured competition, but that is not for me.  As for spotting splash, setup of targets, etc. all true, but I guarantee you that I can spot splash on the berm at about 900 yds.  Took me a fair amount of ammo to walk my shots out there.  Distances.........for some reason my rangefinder really gets spotty (to not returning any information) on that range beyond 250-300 yds.


If you can arrange the Puuloa range for AR based firearms that would be great, I would think that there are a bunch of us here who would take you up on that.  Keep in mind though that some of our stuff might not be strictly US issue, so I'd rather not have a bunch of guys getting upset if I bring out a REPR (AR10 based, side charging handle, muzzle brake, etc.) or a SR9TC (HK91 based, non-US, etc.).  I know there was quite a broohaha a while back about some guys shooting out there with non US based cartridges.

80% of the rifles shot at Puuloa competitions are AR based.
Muzzle brakes are specifically prohibited by NRA rules.Only M1A/M14, M16 "birdcage" or A2 styles are allowed.

Per the NRA High Power Rules

3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes - The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a “muzzle brake.” The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4” x 1” slots cut at 12 and 6 o’clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the installation of sight bases will be allowed.

3. EQUIPMENT AND AMMUNITION
This section defines authorized equipment. Where alternative types of equipment are shown, the least restrictive conditions apply unless the tournament program sets forth limitations.

3.1 Service Rifle - As issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, or the same type and caliber of commercially manufactured rifle, having not less than 4 1/2 pound trigger pull, with standard type stock and standard type leather or web sling. External alterations to the assembled arm will not be allowed. The application of synthetic coatings, which includes those containing powdered metal, to the interior of the stock to improve bedding is authorized provided the coating does not interfere with the function or operation of safety features. The front and rear sights must be the standard or National Match design, but may vary in dimensions of rear sight aperture and front sight blade. The rear sight aperture may be hooded. The internal parts of the rifle may be specially fitted and include alterations that will improve the functioning and accuracy of the arm, provided such alterations in no way interfere with the proper functioning of the safety devices as manufactured. The rifle must be so modified as to be incapable of automatic fire without removing, replacing, or altering parts. The gas system must be fully operational.

(a) U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30 M-1, or caliber 7.62mm M-1 - A device consisting of a modified cartridge clip that is intended to permit single loading from the clip into the chamber during slow fire is considered an internal alteration to improve functioning and is permissible under this rule.

(b) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm M-14 - Must be no more than 2 inches wide at a point immediately to the rear of the front band, no more than 2.5 inches wide at the front and rear of the receiver, and have a continuous taper from receiver to front band. Width at receiver may be carried through to the butt plate, which may be the flat M-1 or hinged M-14 plate, which will be used only in the folded position. In all courses and in all positions the standard 10 or 20-round box magazine or a reduced capacity magazine of the same external dimensions will be allowed. For stock dimension see diagram in illustrations.

(c) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm M-16 series - In all courses of fire and in all positions the standard 10, 20- round or 30-round box magazine or a reduced capacity magazine of the same external dimensions will be attached. A case deflector (DC-T-30 or commercial equivalent) is allowed.

(d) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm M-110 series - In all courses of fire and in all positions the standard 20 round box magazine or a reduced capacity magazine of the same external dimensions will be attached. The flash suppressor may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. The front sling swivel must be attached to the end of the handguard, and must remain in the 6 o’clock position no more than ½ inches from its original location. The sights must be of the standard design found on the M-16 series of firearms. Rear sight windage and elevation adjustments may be modified to allow finer adjustments. Plastic covers may be used on the mounting rails on the handguard.

(e) Any rifle or modified rifle not covered by NRA Rule 3.1, but permitted by CMP Rules is considered a
service rifle in NRA sanctioned competition.

3.2 Any Rifle - A rifle with no restrictions on sights or accessories including Schuetzen type buttplates and palm rests except that it must be safe to competitors and range personnel. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition.) The provisions of Rule 3.16.1 apply to this definition.

(a) See Rule 3.4 and 3.14.

(b) Any rifle not meeting eligibility requirements of 3.1, 3.3., 3.3.1 or 3.3.2 is considered to be an Any Rifle.

3.3 NRA Match Rifle - A center fire rifle with metallic sights and a magazine capable of holding not less than 5 rounds.

(a) See Rule 3.14, Palm Rest.

(b) A service rifle may be used as a match rifle unless otherwise stated in the program. Any service rifle used as an NRA Match Rifle shall conform to Rule 3.1 as applies to trigger pull.

(c) Semi-Automatic rifle. M-16 or commercially equivalent rifles, configured or customized as NRA Match
Rifles are exempt from the 4 1/2 pound trigger weight requirement.

(d) Any semi-automatic rifle that has an original factory design receiver/frame in excess of 3 1/4 inches below the center line of the bore may be used as an NRA Match Rifle.

(e) Other Nations - A center fire rifle with metallic sights. This rifle must meet the requirements to be a legal target rifle in the participant’s home country, and may only be used by someone who is a foreign national, and can provide evidence thereof. (It would be wise for a foreign competitor to have a copy of his own country’s rifle rule, or letter of certification from his National Association with him when competing under this rule.)

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle –

(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.

(b) Any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.

 3.3.2 NRA Any Sight Match Rifle/Tactical Rifle - Same as NRA Match Rifle Rule 3.3 except there is no restriction as to sights. The following restrictions will apply:

(a) No person firing an any sight rifle under 3.3.2 will be allowed to compete with any other group of shooters who are also firing. A competitor using an any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.2 will only be eligible for awards in their own division.

(b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber.

(c) Competitors may use a service rifle equipped with optic sights to compete under this rule. Competitors
using service rifles described in Rules 3.1(c) and 3.1(d) may remove the carry handle to allow mounting of the optic sight.

Specific rules for Puuloa SDZ restrict cartridges to the ballistic equivalent to 30-06 M2 ammo

If you want to shoot and not compete, that is allowable, but you will need to stay within the time limits of the course of fire.

Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club is the only club that holds CMP rifle competitions in Hawaii in which civilians and military competitors can earn national marksmanship awards.

ren

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2013, 09:59:03 PM »

Again I respect that you folks want to shoot structured competition, but that is not for me.  As for spotting splash, setup of targets, etc. all true, but I guarantee you that I can spot splash on the berm at about 900 yds.  Took me a fair amount of ammo to walk my shots out there.  Distances.........for some reason my rangefinder really gets spotty (to not returning any information) on that range beyond 250-300 yds.


If you can arrange the Puuloa range for AR based firearms that would be great, I would think that there are a bunch of us here who would take you up on that.  Keep in mind though that some of our stuff might not be strictly US issue, so I'd rather not have a bunch of guys getting upset if I bring out a REPR (AR10 based, side charging handle, muzzle brake, etc.) or a SR9TC (HK91 based, non-US, etc.).  I know there was quite a broohaha a while back about some guys shooting out there with non US based cartridges.

We have practice days and you can bring the REPR.
Deeds Not Words

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2013, 07:57:34 AM »
..................Specific rules for Puuloa SDZ restrict cartridges to the ballistic equivalent to 30-06 M2 ammo

If you want to shoot and not compete, that is allowable, but you will need to stay within the time limits of the course of fire.

Puuloa Rifle and Pistol Club is the only club that holds CMP rifle competitions in Hawaii in which civilians and military competitors can earn national marksmanship awards.

OK for me no probs on the cartridge as I max on on 308Win/7.62NATO.

I C on the shoot and not compete, that's something I'd be more interested in.

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2013, 07:58:05 AM »
We have practice days and you can bring the REPR.

How often do you folks do practice days and would I need to join CMP to be allowed on range?

dirsh

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2013, 12:03:40 PM »
We have practice days and you can bring the REPR.

Could I just come out and watch? I don't have any high-powered rifles yet, but I'd like to learn about em
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
╾━╤デ╦︻

kevlar

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2013, 09:46:55 PM »
I own two ARs and they're both piston driven; a PWS and a SIG 556 Classic. I got them for the easier clean up and they don't heat up as bad as DI systems. Carrier tilt is a worry of mine, but both rifles have less than 500 rounds through them, and I only shoot maybe once or twice a month. So, I don't think it's an issue yet.

I clean my guns after every shooting session, so maybe I should get a DI AR.

ren

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2013, 10:10:58 PM »
How often do you folks do practice days and would I need to join CMP to be allowed on range?
nope
Deeds Not Words

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2013, 10:44:08 PM »
CMP or club membership is not required unless you want the CMP Bennies of mail order gear, ammo and rifles.

 Miltitary affiliation is not required to shoot, but this is a military based Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) sanctioned organization.

 We have "practice" days and "best practice" days and "Match" Day.

 "Practice" days are when no scores are kept and you can shoot any position across the range 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. Best Practice " days are the NRA Matches. more rules, gear  and time restrictions are implemented to prepare for "Match" day. "Match" day is a CMP event for points toward a "Distinguished" badge. Time, gear,and  technique is strictly enforced. No sighter rounds are allowed. Shooters are required to know the point of impact of every round fired.