DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$ (Read 31899 times)

fang23

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »
Planny.

Didn't used to shoot my LWRC M6A2 much. Nice gun, but heavier than a DI AR, plus the quad rails (with ladder rail covers) were more than I needed. Did some reading and found out the Samson and Rainier Evolution handguards clear most piston assemblies. Picked up a Rainer Evo. It fits well, looks good and is a lot lighter than the OEM handguard. Been shooting the LWRC more since then.
"If it ain't one thing, it's another."

drck1000

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 03:45:12 PM »
the only other difference i can think of is gas tubes vcan melt, while pistons wont, but youʻd have to shoot an assload of ammo in a very short time.
If only full auto guns were legal here.  Yeah, that would take a ton of ammo and I wouldn't want to be the one holding the gun when the tube melts. 

I've seen videos where they shot a gun enough that the Magpul MOE handguard caught on fire!  That didn't seem like that much, but I haven't seen the video in a while. 

roadster99

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 05:21:50 PM »
I bought the Sig 516 when it was relatively affordable ($1300). The biggest issue piston guns claim to have is carrier tilt. Oh, and every piston design is proprietary as well. Mil-spec doesn't seem to exist in the piston world. Personally, if I had to choose, I would go with piston as they run cleaner and cooler than DI. Just not as accurate, but I'm not looking for sub moa with my AR. I'm looking for functionality and reliability. Not trying to say piston is more reliable than DI, but just that what I have fits my wants. They are heavier, though the PWS I heard was pretty light (7lbs). All in all, if I had to do it again I would still buy piston. Just for the cleaner, cooler aspect, nothing more. 

kia_killer

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Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2013, 05:46:38 PM »
I own and shoot both regularly, piston is a lot cleaner if you're like me and tired from driving between Koko head and the west side it's nice to have hardly anything to clean when you get home. Yes it does make it a little front heavy for offhand shooting, but when I'm just shooting from the bench or prone no problem. The whole carrier tilt issue in most cases is exaggerated, but not without foundation. If your just a weekend shooter shooting 2-500 rds per visit you probably won't have issues with a piston system. The biggest bonus is easy clean up after a long day. Di is lighter, has greater potential for accuracy, and is reliable as well. Staggering the gas rings can be annoying, and having rings blow out is very annoying at the range if you don't carry spares... If I could only choose one it would be a DI and deal with cleaning thoroughly. If you don't want to spend a lot of time cleaning and just enjoy weekend shooting, the piston definitely shines there IMO.

mr. me 808

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2013, 05:58:02 PM »
When I bought my first AR I had the same dilemma.  After talking to some people I decided to go with the DI.  This is the information that was given to me that lead me to that decision.

1) The AR15 was not designed to be a piston rifle, if you want a piston rifle get one that was designed around that system like the AK.
2) If you plan to clean your rifle regularly reliability will be a non-issue. 
3) For SHTF purposes I was told that the average soldier walking around in Iraq/Afghanistan normally carries 7ea 30round magazines, for a total of 210 rounds.  Any decent AR, DI or piston will be able to fire 210 rounds in one sitting no problem. 
4) If the shit is that bad I'll either be running away or dead before I get off 210 rounds anyway.
5) I don't need a gun that can shoot thousands of rounds in one sitting because I can't carry that much ammo anyway.
6) I could buy a DI ar15 AND an ak for the price of the piston rifle that I wanted.  So I did.

I think this thread could probably go on forever.  I think it basically comes down to what YOU want.  For me if I was going piston I'd get an HK or LWRC.  If I could afford one I'd buy one in a heartbeat.  Fact is I can't.  If you got the money I"d get one.  My advice is to get whatever you want and you can't go wrong.  Aloha!   :shaka:

sworbeyegib

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2013, 12:14:37 AM »
I'm a DI guy. 

Piston systems are great, guns like the Scar, ak, and sig 556 have proven that.  But the AR-15 was designed as a DI gun, and functions best as a DI gun.  Trying to work a piston system in the mix is more snake oil than function IMO.

Unless you spend the major coin for a high end piston such as an lwrc, or a pws, you are going to have the problems listed.  Such as carrier tilt.  And even on my fathers PWS, it is much noticably heavier (especially muzzle heavy).

The fact that it is all expensive propiety parts suck.  I recently ordered a new bolt carrier group for my Dads PWS mk11.  It was $380! And I could only get it from the maker directly.  Not to mention its this weird one piece item with a charging handle and rod. I'm a big supporter of carrying an extra bolt carrier group with my gear, I would not be able to do this with it.

The myth of needing to meticulously clean an AR in order for it to function is just that, a myth.  Yes, you should clean it.  But the most important factor is LUBE!  Keep your ar wet, and it WILL keep chugging.  The myth of using less lube so not to attract dust and debris is a horrible idea. 

In general...

A wet/clean gun will work
A wet/dirty gun will work
A dry/clean gun will work for awhile
A dry/dirty gun WILL NOT

I read once that 95% of all ar failures can be linked to the MEAL system

Magazines-crappy mags wont feed ammo, regardless if its a piston
Extractor-a mil spec/upgraded extractor fixes this problem.  A piston can still have extractor problems.  I've seen it.
Ammunition-crap ammo is crap ammo.  I've seen piston guns first hand mess up.  Many times because the gas setting just wasnt right. 
Lube-you should lube both either way

Buy a quality DI gun, and be happy. 

SpeedTek

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Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 01:53:16 AM »
I have had some PWS's come in with bad carrier tilt problems.  Inside the reciever was worn and the buffer tube was worn down.
I replaced the buffer tube and welded the carrier.   added .010" to the diameter.  So far better than the original.

I have modified a bunch of Osprey Kits also.  I weld on the back end of the carrier and machine it back down to fit the buffer tube better. 
It helps but most customers havent put the quantity of rounds thru thier guns to really see if it is a fix or not.

I think Piston is way more maintenence than DI.

On my personal DI guns I never fully clean them. Just take out the bolt carrier and grease it when it looks dry.
My DI upper with 5000+ rounds has no wear on it.  Dirty as cr*p tho....but i'm going to let it run till it jams.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 02:02:37 AM by SpeedTek »
Political Correctness is FOS
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GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 08:13:45 AM »
I bought the Sig 516 when it was relatively affordable ($1300). The biggest issue piston guns claim to have is carrier tilt. Oh, and every piston design is proprietary as well. Mil-spec doesn't seem to exist in the piston world. Personally, if I had to choose, I would go with piston as they run cleaner and cooler than DI. Just not as accurate, but I'm not looking for sub moa with my AR. I'm looking for functionality and reliability. Not trying to say piston is more reliable than DI, but just that what I have fits my wants. They are heavier, though the PWS I heard was pretty light (7lbs). All in all, if I had to do it again I would still buy piston. Just for the cleaner, cooler aspect, nothing more.

I think the piston accuracy is overblown.  There are pistons that are pretty accurate (enough to outshoot the bulk of the people) and DI guns that are not accurate. 

I have a friend who had his REPR shoot under a quarter sized group straight out of the box, no sandbags, etc.

ImKu

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 09:54:43 AM »
I think the piston accuracy is overblown.  There are pistons that are pretty accurate (enough to outshoot the bulk of the people) and DI guns that are not accurate. 

I have a friend who had his REPR shoot under a quarter sized group straight out of the box, no sandbags, etc.

Just curious, what grain was your friend using?
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 12:34:59 PM »
^^^It was years ago, but my guess is either 150 or 168.

macsak

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 12:37:07 PM »
hmm
interesting
PWS claims no carrier tilt with their system

how many is "some"?
and did it depend on round count how bad their problems were?

I have had some PWS's come in with bad carrier tilt problems.  Inside the reciever was worn and the buffer tube was worn down.
I replaced the buffer tube and welded the carrier.   added .010" to the diameter.  So far better than the original.

I have modified a bunch of Osprey Kits also.  I weld on the back end of the carrier and machine it back down to fit the buffer tube better. 
It helps but most customers havent put the quantity of rounds thru thier guns to really see if it is a fix or not.

I think Piston is way more maintenence than DI.

On my personal DI guns I never fully clean them. Just take out the bolt carrier and grease it when it looks dry.
My DI upper with 5000+ rounds has no wear on it.  Dirty as cr*p tho....but i'm going to let it run till it jams.

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 12:53:53 PM »
If someone wants to furnish the ammo, I'd put one of my LWRC's up against a DI for comparison.............just sayin'................... :wave:

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2013, 01:27:14 PM »
If someone wants to furnish the ammo, I'd put one of my LWRC's up against a DI for comparison.............just sayin'................... :wave:

We've been trying to get you to come out to Puuloa  Range and see what you can do on the NRA 800 AGG for a while now.

The next shoot is the NRA State Championship 800AGG on 18 May. I can supply 88 rounds of Federal 62gr FMJBT CMP ammo or M855 green tip for you to shoot.

The Hawaii National Guard Marksmanship Team will be bringing out rack grade M16A2s for National Guard Shooters that do not have their own rifles. The Marines will be fielding their shooters with National Match M16A4s, but will be shooting MK294 MOD 0 moly coated ball. The following day 19 May is the CMP Rifle EIC 500 Agg and Pistol 300 Agg EIC Matches. These are reserved only for rifles and pistols that comform to CMP rules

Hunter1007

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 04:33:03 PM »
Pistons are a little heavier if that matters to you at all. Pistons make a difference too if was an SBR but that doesn't matter here cause you can't have one. Sure piston guns don't have to be maintained as much as DI's but I've never had a problem, even with dirty Wolf ammo. Someone told me that spare parts for piston guns would add to the cost down the road when parts breakdown. I was like if I could afford that much ammo to shoot to wear the gun down, I could afford a brand new rifle! I say buy one of each.

SpeedTek

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Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 04:38:09 PM »
hmm
interesting
PWS claims no carrier tilt with their system

how many is "some"?
and did it depend on round count how bad their problems were?

I have fixed 3 already. All had under 1500 rounds.   

I never believe anything the factories say.  I see all kinds of problems everyday.  All kinds of guns.  Nature of the business.
Political Correctness is FOS
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& Bolt Action 308s also 10/22 Rugers.
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michalebsdad

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 05:09:17 PM »
When I bought my first AR I had the same dilemma.  After talking to some people I decided to go with the DI.  This is the information that was given to me that lead me to that decision.

1) The AR15 was not designed to be a piston rifle, if you want a piston rifle get one that was designed around that system like the AK.
2) If you plan to clean your rifle regularly reliability will be a non-issue. 
3) For SHTF purposes I was told that the average soldier walking around in Iraq/Afghanistan normally carries 7ea 30round magazines, for a total of 210 rounds.  Any decent AR, DI or piston will be able to fire 210 rounds in one sitting no problem. 
4) If the shit is that bad I'll either be running away or dead before I get off 210 rounds anyway.
5) I don't need a gun that can shoot thousands of rounds in one sitting because I can't carry that much ammo anyway.
6) I could buy a DI ar15 AND an ak for the price of the piston rifle that I wanted.  So I did.

I think this thread could probably go on forever.  I think it basically comes down to what YOU want.  For me if I was going piston I'd get an HK or LWRC.  If I could afford one I'd buy one in a heartbeat.  Fact is I can't.  If you got the money I"d get one.  My advice is to get whatever you want and you can't go wrong.  Aloha!   :shaka:

This was supposed to be a quote response but somehow I screwed that up..

Just for the record, our basic load is 210 rounds. The only issue with the 5 F's is due to lack of cleaning properly, wear of parts after years of being passed from one Soldier to the next, sand (that fine nasty shit found in Afghanistan) and Soldier's not treating their weapons correctly. That being said, the moment your M4 doesn't fire when you need it takes all those times it performed just fine right out of the fucking window and it becomes the biggest piece of shit M4 EVER!!!!!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 05:15:08 PM by michalebsdad »

GZire

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 05:30:02 PM »
We've been trying to get you to come out to Puuloa  Range and see what you can do on the NRA 800 AGG for a while now.



I'd love to shoot out there, but I'm not a fan of the structured competition.

Teichi

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 11:33:06 PM »
If someone wants to furnish the ammo, I'd put one of my LWRC's up against a DI for comparison.............just sayin'................... :wave:
[/quote

I'd love to shoot out there, but I'm not a fan of the structured competition.

I offer ammo, a venue, a nationally approved course of fire for you to put your LWRC up against rack grade miltary rifles and you wimp out......
How else are you going to compare your stuff against DI systems? Swimsuit and Evening Gown categories?.
....just saying.......

dirsh

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 11:39:57 PM »
 :geekdanc:
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ren

Re: DI (direct impingement) vs Piston Drive....Is it worth the Extra $$$
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2013, 08:33:33 AM »
oh boy  :o... :popcorn:
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 08:52:38 AM by ren »
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