Are you sh#tting me?  So the students are the only ones with firearms but not the instructors?  That is just insane almost comically so but it is Hawaii afterall.  Are the ROs armed?  I never noticed.

RO's are not armed.

Did you not look at the damn video of the mother shooting her son, at the gun range? What's to say she stops there?  If I saw someone purposefully point a gun at another individual, and shoot them, in the manner displayed in that video - there would most definitely be an imminent threat to health and safety in my direct vicinity.  I'm not going to sit and wait to see if they want to kill themselves afterwards; it's a threat - and it must be responded to as such for the health and safety of all in the area.  For all I would know is that I just witnessed the last straw in a persons mental breakdown and everyone else around them is next and about to die.   If they turn the gun on themselves, then obviously we would not want to shoot (we would want to attempt to de-escalate, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with pointing a loaded firearm in their direction.

No I did not look at the video (GZ's at work).  I assumed you were talking about the lady in Maui as it is the title of the thread.

I do understand your concern, but are you implying that it's more dangerous at a range for people with mental breaks than elsewhere?  I tend to differ in that I think the really deranged people who want to go out with a bang are the people who target schools, theaters, malls, etc.  I think they realize they don't want to go to a range.

^^^BTW sorry, never saw the link in the post you quoted.

It would be a crazy scene if someone started shooting other shooters at the public range. Especially the rifle range.

There's no backstop when you swing to the side and the crossfire of 20 guys returning fire might kill more people than the shooter would.

The RO's should be required to be armed.

I don't even want to think about it as I take my kids to the range almost every time I go.

Having armed RSO's would mean a complete shift in C&C policy.  It means they would be condoning arming of citizens, or it means that they would all be special duty LEOs. 

I will say again that people who want to make these giant splashes usually pick soft targets such as schools, theaters, malls, etc.  IMHO people showing up at a range would be the suicide person or the guy who wants suicide by cop.

Having armed RSO's would mean a complete shift in C&C policy.  It means they would be condoning arming of citizens, or it means that they would all be special duty LEOs. 

I will say again that people who want to make these giant splashes usually pick soft targets such as schools, theaters, malls, etc.  IMHO people showing up at a range would be the suicide person or the guy who wants suicide by cop.

I agree 100%.

Unfortunately those people are out there. And I don't think it would be suicide by cop. It would be suicide by us. Which is scary.

Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns.  At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.

It would be a crazy scene if someone started shooting other shooters at the public range. Especially the rifle range.

There's no backstop when you swing to the side and the crossfire of 20 guys returning fire might kill more people than the shooter would.

The RO's should be required to be armed.

I don't even want to think about it as I take my kids to the range almost every time I go.

Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns.  At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.

Yup.  That would SUCK !

Good thing this is purely hypothetical and only us responsible gun owners go to the range.   

And I'll still keep taking the kids. 

Wow, so sad. Every now and then I always wondered about something like that happening. It's so surreal to hear about something like this. Although very sad for her, her friends and family as well as people at that range, it could've been worse. Wish there was a way to prevent it but it seems almost impossible.  Just so saddening words can't explain.

Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns.  At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.

This is pretty much how I feel about going to the "range" we have on the big island. Its out in the woods. There is no body with any authority around. Close proximity to ocean view where all the crazies live. You never know who will show up. I wouldn't even go if there were any other options. I have always met responsible, safety concious people there so far but only been 3x

Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns.  At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.

but really isnt that why we have guns is cause everbody else has guns even the criminals but i like to think that we have guns is to stand up against the tyranny of a government most of all ...then looking at all of you with one eye closed. Unless ive got an open holographic sight then i no need close one eye.

The RO's should be required to be armed.

I was talking to someone about this today.  Yes. They should be.

Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns.  At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.

I'll say it.  We have criminals at the gun range. I don't trust other people with guns, unless I shoot with you regularly lol.  The reason we have so much safety stuff, is because we know, and understand, the dangers, risks, and finality of handling weapons.  We take it serious, because people can get hurt. 

I watch people who come near our bay, my students, or my guns.  I'm always paranoid at the range, sitting on condition orange for the most part.

I think we are going too far down the rabbit hole.
There is risk everywhere. We accept it as it is part of life. There's the possibility of a rogue, criminal shooting people amongst an infinite number of things that can happen. I think it is safer to shoot at Kokohead than it is running or walking in Waikiki, downtown or even in my own neighborhood. I seem to be a magnet for drivers that don't see me despite my white shirt, shoes and reflective gear.

I think we are going too far down the rabbit hole.
There is risk everywhere. We accept it as it is part of life. There's the possibility of a rogue, criminal shooting people amongst an infinite number of things that can happen. I think it is safer to shoot at Kokohead than it is running or walking in Waikiki, downtown or even in my own neighborhood. I seem to be a magnet for drivers that don't see me despite my white shirt, shoes and reflective gear.

The biggest problem is that every where I go to a range, the individuals running it are armed.   LIFE instructors are commonly armed.. the IPSC guys are a reload away from being armed.   It's been a concern of mine for a while, and I think this is going to be fuel to fight the fight.

An active shooter with a goal to kill as many people as possible in a short amount of time i.e. what happened in Aurora, Virginia Tech etc. is HIGHLY UNLIKELY at a firearms range.
Look at all those scenarios, those sick CRIMINALS targeted UNARMED individuals. Ask yourself why would a sick individual go to a firearms range to kill in mass? Those "targets" would most likely shoot back or those "other targets" would shoot back as well. Whatever their motives were it certainly didn't involve people who were armed, it involved targets who were unarmed. These active shooters were cowards as well. Now suicidal people have a different agenda altogether.  We can look at this recent case and other historical cases as well.
I can understand safety issues i.e. new shooter who doesn't understand rules, not knowing how to handle a gun etc. but not trusting the guy next to you at a gun range thinking he/she might at any time turn around and shoot you? Do you have substantiating proof that he/she is a criminal and should not be in possession of a firearm? Perhaps range personnel or LE should know so that this person can be escorted and dealt with.
There has to be a level of understanding that doesn't cross over to irrational paranoia.

An active shooter with a goal to kill as many people as possible in a short amount of time i.e. what happened in Aurora, Virginia Tech etc. is HIGHLY UNLIKELY at a firearms range.
Look at all those scenarios, those sick CRIMINALS targeted UNARMED individuals. Ask yourself why would a sick individual go to a firearms range to kill in mass? Those "targets" would most likely shoot back or those "other targets" would shoot back as well. Whatever their motives were it certainly didn't involve people who were armed, it involved targets who were unarmed. These active shooters were cowards as well. Now suicidal people have a different agenda altogether.  We can look at this recent case and other historical cases as well.
I can understand safety issues i.e. new shooter who doesn't understand rules, not knowing how to handle a gun etc. but not trusting the guy next to you at a gun range thinking he/she might at any time turn around and shoot you? Do you have substantiating proof that he/she is a criminal and should not be in possession of a firearm? Perhaps range personnel or LE should know so that this person can be escorted and dealt with.
There has to be a level of understanding that doesn't cross over to irrational paranoia.

That mother didn't seem to hesitate to blow her son away. And it's not the individuals who are shooting up the school im concerned with... you might have someone wanting to hurt or kill another person steal guns, shoot someone (a targeted individual), and snap or hit fight mode.

That mother didn't seem to hesitate to blow her son away. And it's not the individuals who are shooting up the school im concerned with... you might have someone wanting to hurt or kill another person steal guns, shoot someone (a targeted individual), and snap or hit fight mode.

It's not the scenario that you can think of that should scare you.  It's the one you CAN'T imagine that should worry you.  All you can do is prepare, stay alert, and hope you're lucky enough to be armed at the moment you need to be.  Like I tell others who ask me, "So, why do you need guns?  You really think the government is becoming tyrannical, or that little Johnny living next door is plotting to kill you?"  My reply is always, "I own a gun for the same reason I have insurance.  You never know when you'll need it.  I'd much rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it!"

Its sad but fact is there is not much anyone can do if a person is determined to take their own life.


Just an idea here: Since the majority of people are taking the pistol safety course to buy a handgun and with Hawaii laws being what they are, why don't instructors request that students get their long gun permit first? Instructors would know that some sort of background check has been done. And students will know if they can own a firearm, what they need to get sorted out and then decide whether they still want to spend $100+ for the class. Does that make sense or is it just me?

Its sad but fact is there is not much anyone can do if a person is determined to take their own life.


Just an idea here: Since the majority of people are taking the pistol safety course to buy a handgun and with Hawaii laws being what they are, why don't instructors request that students get their long gun permit first? Instructors would know that some sort of background check has been done. And students will know if they can own a firearm, what they need to get sorted out and then decide whether they still want to spend $100+ for the class. Does that make sense?

The part that makes no sense is requiring everyone to get a long gun permit to take a handgun course.  You are also asking that everyone do the 2 week wait before being allowed to attend the class.

Not everyone wants to buy a long gun (strange, yes, but true!).  Plus, the added cost to the state/county to issue the superfluous long gun permit to acquire would be very wasteful.

If the extra cost and time of doing this just to handle a gun for training will actually solve the problem, then it makes sense.  If this does NOTHING to screen out violent or suicidal mentally disturbed people who are more likely to pose a danger to themselves or others, then the process you outlined will be like many of the anti-gun regulations we already have.  They make someone feel better, but they have zero effect on preventing these life threatening situations.