mahalo
hopefully jury comes back today with verdict

Friday off, not sequestered.

bb

Maybe you should educate yourself about what the word murder means.

I strongly agree that the second amendment is all about protecting your life and the lives of your family.

 Strongly agree that the second amendment also serves to protect the general populace against government tyranny.

If however, you believe that the right to carry a gun makes you judge, jury and executioner in the world, then you are EXACTLY the kind of person that has no business owning or carrying a gun.

If you seriously believe that drawing down in a  law enforcement officer because you see him draw a gun (because in your mind you believe he is a out to commit murder) you are not only guilty of horrible judgement, you're delusional.

Explain to me exactly how that course of action will end well for you.

Scenario A) Police officer is on an undercover operation staking out an international drug dealer...
                    Said officer sees the opportunity to draw his weapon and apprehend the drug dealer.
                    Wolfwood, the self appointed judge and jury of the world decides that this police officer is about to "commit murder"
                    Wolfwood decides to draw his gun and hand out some wolf justice and prevent this murder.

                     What would happen:   
                    A) Police officer would get in a shoot out with wolfwood, one or both are killed.
                    B) Wolfwood would be shot in the head by the other officers that haven't revealed themselves yet.
                    C) Drug dealer gets away and wolfwood gets arrested and charged with multiple felonies.
                    D) wolfwood is the hero and walks away scot free.

I'm actually a attorney licensed in both HI and CA and have had a hand in litigating all three Second Amendment cases stemming from Hawaii so I am fairly sure I know what murder means.
If you see a government agent engaged in a crime against a U.S. citizen then you must take action.
Do you think in 1946 the men at the Battle of Athens asked themselves whether they would be incarcerated for defending their community against the government?
Do you think Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris asked themselves about the consequences when the defended the Weaver home from the ATF?
I could go on but history is riddled with examples of people standing up against the government because it was the right thing to do.
And it has worked. In Athens Georgia the people went back to democratic elections.
Due to the sacrifices of patriots at Ruby Ridge and Waco the Federal Government was forced to change its policy and stopped using armed raids as their go to tactic. Rather in the next standoff they negotiated and no lives were lost on either side.
Deedy needs to be sent to jail for the rest of his life so the Sovereign States can remind the Federal Government that it will not allow its jack booted thugs to come and murder its citizens.

bb

I'm actually a attorney licensed in both HI and CA and have had a hand in litigating all three Second Amendment cases stemming from Hawaii so I am fairly sure I know what murder means.

Since you're an attorney then I'm fairly sure you understand that murder is defined as the unlawful killing of another person without justification or excuse.
If Deedy had no justification or excuse, he would already be convicted.

Due to the sacrifices of patriots at Ruby Ridge and Waco the Federal Government was forced to change its policy and stopped using armed raids as their go to tactic. Rather in the next standoff they negotiated and no lives were lost on either side.
murder its citizens.

So am I to understand that you believe that David Koresh and his band of wackos are, in your mind, patriots? 

Deedy needs to be sent to jail for the rest of his life so the Sovereign States can remind the Federal Government that it will not allow its jack booted thugs to come and murder its citizens.

I do believe that Deedy should have executed better judgement, but he didn't murder anyone.
Either you haven't seen the video tapes of the incident or you're seriously delusional in saying that Deedy murdered Elderts.

I actually haven't seen the videos. Do you have a link? I live on the mainland nowadays. My partner Rick Holcomb does all the courtroom appearances.

I actually haven't seen the videos. Do you have a link? I live on the mainland nowadays. My partner Rick Holcomb does all the courtroom appearances.

This thread you are posting in is 31 pages long.  All the video links and other information, including some transcripts by one of our members, is contained herein.

 

...............Due to the sacrifices of patriots at Ruby Ridge and Waco the Federal Government was forced to change its policy and stopped using armed raids as their go to tactic. Rather in the next standoff they negotiated and no lives were lost on either side.
Deedy needs to be sent to jail for the rest of his life so the Sovereign States can remind the Federal Government that it will not allow its jack booted thugs to come and murder its citizens.

Holy smokes...............the Branch Davidians at Waco were patriots?  I think your time would be best served investigating what kind of nut job Koresh was and what kind of heinous acts he carried out. 

I'm disappointed an attorney would speak out with such determination without first gathering facts.

Holy smokes...............the Branch Davidians at Waco were patriots?  I think your time would be best served investigating what kind of nut job Koresh was and what kind of heinous acts he carried out. 

I'm disappointed an attorney would speak out with such determination without first gathering facts.

Yes, but not surprised, given that the vast majority in Congress are also lawyers!          

I actually haven't seen the videos. Do you have a link? I live on the mainland nowadays. My partner Rick Holcomb does all the courtroom appearances.

You really should do your dillegence before typing your thoughts. #dissapointed.   

Based on your statement, I will also take the next logical step and say that you: didn't read this forum, didn't listen to testimony, didn't read any of the filings, are unaware of training and guidelines for those carrying firearms, do not follow closely developments in self-defense laws or cases, and have limited experience with the policies and procedures of carrying a firearm.

The last statement of your paragraph shows total disregard and disdain for the judicial process, and it blows my mind how you are simply advocating for the destruction of a potentially innocent mans life.

If the ATF wanted to arrest David Koresh they would have simply arrested him while out in town. Instead they raided the complex and the Davidians simply defended their land. There is no dispositive evidence they even were engaged in unlawful activity. The only ones guilty of a crime are the ATF for using smoke grenades and negligently lighting the whole complex on fire with smoke grenades which resulted in the deaths of many innocent children. Being a nutjob i.e. practicing your religion is protected by something called the First Amendment. While there are allegations Koresh engaged in underage sex, these were never substantiated. The ATF also tried to make the claim that a machine gun was burned in the fire as evidence the raid was proper. How could a wood fire melt a machine gun to that extend?
 Every Davidian that died is a martyr who helped end a horrible shoot first investigate later policy by the Federal Government.

If the ATF wanted to arrest David Koresh they would have simply arrested him while out in town. Instead they raided the complex and the Davidians simply defended their land. There is no dispositive evidence they even were engaged in unlawful activity. The only ones guilty of a crime are the ATF for using smoke grenades and negligently lighting the whole complex on fire with smoke grenades which resulted in the deaths of many innocent children. Being a nutjob i.e. practicing your religion is protected by something called the First Amendment. While there are allegations Koresh engaged in underage sex, these were never substantiated. The ATF also tried to make the claim that a machine gun was burned in the fire as evidence the raid was proper. How could a wood fire melt a machine gun to that extend?
 Every Davidian that died is a martyr who helped end a horrible shoot first investigate later policy by the Federal Government.

That standoff lasted 51 days.  In that time, all Koresh had to do was surrender peacefully.  Instead, he and his brainwashed followers decided this was their "Armageddon" or "Apocalypse".  They thought this was their chance to go to heaven, fighting for their beliefs.  This is the problem with anyone with deep religious beliefs bent on violence:  there is no way to rationally convince them what they are doing is wrong, legally or morally.

The ATF had legal warrants when the raid started.  If Koresh had surrendered, he would have had his day in court.  Instead of proving to the world he was the victim, he kept the standoff going.  This was no different than Jonestown, in my opinion.  A wack-job leader causing the mass suicide of a bunch of brainwashed followers who believed more in the leader than the teachings of the Bible he pretended to preach.  After nearly 3 months, at what point do you think the gov't should walk away in defeat?  Once the Dividians killed the 4 agents in the initial raid, there was no way any of them were going to surrender peacefully...especially not after a 51 day stand-off.

The raid that ended the stand-off was a tragic loss of innocent life, but based on the circumstances, I personally believe there was more risk of the desperate mass suicide of 100% of the people (ala Jonestown), versus the chance a good number would be saved in a raid.

In all, 76 Branch Davidians died[9] and nine survived the fire on April 19 (five others had been killed in the initial ATF raid and buried on the grounds, one had been killed by ATF after the raid, and 35 had left during the FBI standoff)

An independent investigation by two experts from the University of Maryland's Department of Fire Protection Engineering concluded that the compound residents had sufficient time to escape the fire, if they had so desired.

Autopsy records also indicate that at least 20 Branch Davidians were shot, including five children under the age of 14. Three-year-old Dayland Gent was stabbed in the chest. The medical examiner who performed the autopsies believed these deaths were mercy killings by Branch Davidians trapped in the fire with no escape. The expert retained by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel concluded that many of the gunshot wounds "support self-destruction either by overt suicide, consensual execution (suicide by proxy), or less likely, forced execution."

If the ATF wanted to arrest David Koresh they would have simply arrested him while out in town. Instead they raided the complex and the Davidians simply defended their land. There is no dispositive evidence they even were engaged in unlawful activity. The only ones guilty of a crime are the ATF for using smoke grenades and negligently lighting the whole complex on fire with smoke grenades which resulted in the deaths of many innocent children. Being a nutjob i.e. practicing your religion is protected by something called the First Amendment. While there are allegations Koresh engaged in underage sex, these were never substantiated. The ATF also tried to make the claim that a machine gun was burned in the fire as evidence the raid was proper. How could a wood fire melt a machine gun to that extend?
 Every Davidian that died is a martyr who helped end a horrible shoot first investigate later policy by the Federal Government.

Again your fact checking is flawed and incomplete. 

If the smoke grenades were what started the fires, then how did the fires start nearly simulaneously in several areas of the compound?  Also if so, why were those areas found to have accelerants and such accelerants found on the clothing of other (cult) members? 

As far as not abusing the girls/children/women......just one of many stories from people who were there and were witness.:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/14/waco.koresh.believers/index.html

Doyle says his daughter started having sex with Koresh when she was 14. Koresh fathered at least 13 children with sect followers and engaged in sexual acts with underage Davidian girls, according to the Justice Department, numerous affidavits of Davidians and interviews CNN conducted with survivors. Watch a video Koresh recorded of himself with his children inside the compound during the siege.

Davidian Kiri Jewel testified during 1995 congressional hearings on the siege that Koresh slept in a bed with women and children, and she believed that he had impregnated a 14-year-old. Koresh, she said, often talked about how the young girls at the compound pleased him sexually. Jewel described in graphic detail how Koresh sexually assaulted her. She testified that she wasn't afraid of getting pregnant; she was too young, she explained. She'd not even started menstruating yet.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/koresh-led-his-cult-children-to-death-led-his-children-to-death-1569755.html

David Koresh told members of his Branch Davidian cult - including 12 children identified by DNA genetic fingerprinting to have been fathered by him - to prepare for death before the inferno that destroyed the cult ranch at Waco, Texas, an inquest in Manchester into the deaths of 23 Britons was told yesterday..............

...........Fifty adults and 25 children died in the inferno following a second raid by federal agents. The inquest was told that DNA genetic fingerprint tests on the victims had identified at least 12 children who perished as having been fathered by Koresh with different women.

The sad thing is these people think this is OK.  Parents willing to give up their children to false prophets.

In any case you will maintain your viewpoint regardless of whatever is placed in front of you.  That's your Right, I just don't happen to agree with it.

This is why you need to be well versed in the Bible.

You need to be well versed so that you are not fooled by "wolves in sheep clothing."

Koresh was doing adultery and no one seemed to object.  Also doing fornication.

Where were the other leaders?


Sadly this kind of things are still happening today.

This is why you need to be well versed in the Bible.

You need to be well versed so that you are not fooled by "wolves in sheep clothing."

Koresh was doing adultery and no one seemed to object.  Also doing fornication.

Where were the other leaders?


Sadly this kind of things are still happening today.

Cults only work with one Alpha Male.

Personally, I reserve judgement on what actually happened at all these places because the facts are not completely in, and there is ambiguous information. It is nice to decide either way but I just don't think objectively we can do that.

Regarding them being patriots, I can see what wolfwood is getting at but I think the definition of a patriot is someone who takes action specifically for the betterment of the country and/or his/her peers. I don't feel these cult guys did that. Their main objective was not to make America better (e.g., I would argue that wolfwood is more of a patriot than Koresh, as he seems to be actively engaged in the legal battles to secure 2A for fellow citizens), but to run their own cult camps the way they like. They may be expressing their 1A and 2A for freedom of faith, speech, arms, etc. but they are not actively engaged in defending them. Depending on what you think you can say they are martyrs or victims of happenstance, but they are not patriots. If Koresh said to America, guys I am going to test the 1A and 2A by doing this, and you will see what happens. Then that might be different but just because he got shot up, doesn't pass muster.

I think the point that wolfwood raised is an interesting one, but I also agree the scenario outlined by KK is very valid (the officer arresting the drug dealer). It is not cut and dried. For example, what if we saw a Nazi about to shoot dead some Jewish children, and we were a German citizen (the Jewish children are also German citizens BTW). Maybe children is too obvious an example. Maybe if the Nazi was going to execute someone for simply muttering something negative about Hitler in public. What then? Not so clear cut.

There is no evidence of mass suicide. What happened is the ATF is all there wisdom tried to smoke out the Davidians with smoke grenades which are rather hot immediately after deployment.
This caused a fire that caused the death of the Davidians not some mass suicide theory that was concocted by the government to cover up the fact their negligence caused the death of innocent women and children.
The raid was unnecessary just like the killing of Elderts.
 every single person from Janet Reno on down should have been charged with involuntary manslaughter for their actions.

The government knew that the Dravidians would have held out just like the Weavers so they got desperate and used smoke grenades when they should have known better.



As to the accelerants they hit a mutiple areas where they stored gasoline when firing many smoke grenades. It should come as no surprise that this would be found. Remember the government also made the claim that their was something that problay was machine gun that was so badly melted that it could not be ascertain to have been one. Metal metled that bad in a wood fire?

Astoundingly, the Judge didn't give the jury the option of Manslaughter.
Talking about the Deedy trial.

 

Is the jury back yet ?

Side note: The Randy Weaver/Ruby Ridge situation is tragic and F-ed up !
Damnit ! I went back off track. 

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I am sure this Deedy trial is mega-political.

There is no evidence of mass suicide.

Autopsy records also indicate that at least 20 Branch Davidians were shot, including five children under the age of 14. Three-year-old Dayland Gent was stabbed in the chest. The medical examiner who performed the autopsies believed these deaths were mercy killings by Branch Davidians trapped in the fire with no escape. The expert retained by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel concluded that many of the gunshot wounds "support self-destruction either by overt suicide, consensual execution (suicide by proxy), or less likely, forced execution."

I propose as a lawyer, you would have to agree the official findings of the autopies would be considered evidence.  If you choose to challenge those findings, and the conclusions based on the evidence, then you would have to have evidence to the contrary or at the very least a credible expert who shares your contrary opinion.

And your opposing evidence is ?? 

(hint:  conspiracy theories and anti-government accusations are not evidence, no matter how passionately you believe them)

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I am sure this Deedy trial is mega-political.

We'll pretty much know for sure if there's a mistrial / hung jury and they don't try him again.

Think there will be a hung jury ?

Can we start a Waco thread ?

Hey what happens with a hung jury?

Does the jury HAVE to come back with a verdict, for the accused to be immune via Double Jeopardy?

Surely there is a deadline for the verdict?