Apparently they're still going after all 50 cals in the newest version of SB3196. What is the best rhetorical tack to defend against this?


Defending hunting tends to play well with fence sitters, so explaining that 50 cals do have a valid hunting purposes seems a good argument to make.

Now that AR's aren't being banned under the bill, the 50 Beowulf seems like a great candidate for defense. Lever actions in 500S&W or 50 Alaskan and old-school buffalo rifles deserve to be defended too...
But for the sake of testimony, does anybody actually have or use any of these? (I'm inspired to buy a trapdoor Springfield off Gunbroker, there are a bunch of them, but they're all scary old and the ammo is rare.)

It needs to be stated that larger and slower rounds are generally great hunting rounds if within range, as they kill quickly and do less damage to meat. Most people don't immediately recognize that overkill is more ethical than underkill.


The only 50 cal I personally have is a 50 BMG, and I feel the arguments in favor of that are harder to make appeal to the uninitiated.
1) It's fun!
2) Federal law restricts calibers above 50 caliber, so an Hawaii law limiting calibers above .49999 is capricious. Similar or superior ballistics can be achieved with smaller rounds like the 416 Barrett.
3) The typical 2A/ S17 arguments.
4) They are virtually never used in crime in the USA. (But apparently Mexican drug cartels have been using 50 BMG's like crazy... Which can be used to demonstrate their use in the paramilitary-type conflicts they're engaged in, which demonstrates their feasibility as a tool of a militia, but that probably isn't an argument I'd want to make against somebody who is fear-mongering the things.)
5) They're used in long range target shooting, but is there any suitable range or target shooting competition in Hawaii? The argument would be that somebody should be allowed to take one back and forth from the mainland.


I wonder if it's even worthwhile to try to explain the difference between 50 BMG and the other 50's. California decided to ban 50 BMG by name and that led to the creation of slightly-different, "not-50 BMG" rounds.

Have Barrett send a letter notifying HI State  and govt agencies they will no longer service their firearms. Once sent back to them they keep it. Just like they did with CA.

The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.

Have Barrett send a letter notifying HI State  and govt agencies they will no longer service their firearms. Once sent back to them they keep it. Just like they did with CA.

This is a good idea. Does anybody know if HI government has any 50 calibers, Barrett or otherwise?

The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.

A few years ago Maui County Council had a bill that would ban all firearms over 50 caliber. Not just centerfire rifles but even muskets and shotguns too.

I want to say it was Mike Molina's bill? I remember the councilman who, after being blasted with absolutely withering testimony, he had this sheepish defeated look and said something like "well, I just wanted to stop weapons that could snipe somebody from like a mile away..."

Draft testimony below:

There is a wide variety of "50 caliber" cartridges and this bill makes no distinction between them. Federal law already restricts ammunition above 50 caliber; it'd be capricious and imprudent for Hawaii to restrict ammunition above .499 caliber.

This bill would ban rifles chambered for cartridges with great hunting pedigrees, and none of the rifles this bill would ban have any sort of prominent criminal history or practical criminal use in the United States.

Generally speaking, larger bullets travel at a slower speed than smaller bullets. When hunting, a larger slower bullet will often destroy less meat than a smaller and faster bullet. But larger slower bullets will have a shorter usable range and will often provide more recoil to the shooter, which slows down repeat shots.

Single-shot "buffalo rifles" from the 1800's would be banned by this bill. Rifles using more-modern cartridges like the 50 Beowulf or 50 Alaska would also be banned. These rifles are no more dangerous than smaller caliber rifles; they are generally shorter-ranged and have less power than 30 caliber rounds that are in common use.


Presumptively, the intention behind this bill was to ban the most powerful of the 50 caliber rounds, the 50 BMG, and the authors of the bill are willing to outlaw every other 50 caliber round to do so. 50 BMG rounds are the most powerful available in the USA that aren't subject to extra regulation. 

50 BMG rifles are relatively large, heavy and expensive. It is extremely difficult to imagine a scenario where a criminal planning a crime with such a rifle would be dissuaded by the existence of this law, or would be unable to commit the same crime with a slightly smaller bullet.

50 BMG rifles have been banned in other jurisdictions, and the result has been the development of rounds of similar power that are slightly smaller and oftentimes more inherently accurate.

Isn’t there something about limiting magazine capacity in rifles to 20 rounds also?

i don't think anybody hunts with 50BMG.  it's not about hunting.

but there's sport shooters, enjoyment of the hobby.

you're right, banning the .50 is capricious.  the folks shooting real long range, i.e. 1 mile plus, are using the sub-.50 cal "cheytac" calibers, amongst others.  Those outperform the 50BMG "by a mile", pun intended, and those are in the .3xx-.4xx caliber ranges.

so yes, it's arbitrary and capricious.

not to mention the infringement.

next thing, he'll be going after our .308's.

For the OP, most trapdoor springfields are 45-70. They are exempting pre-1899 rifles from what I remember, so they would not be impacted.

Some people do hunt with 500S&W, 500 Nitro Express, and 50 Beowulf, but I don't know if anyone here does.

500 S&W and 50 Beowulf are mostly used for hunting for straight wall cartridge states. The 450 Bushmaster is cheaper and nearly as good for that purpose.

500 Nitro is an old stopping rifle cartridge, but there are other alternatives for folks with enough money to fly to Africa and pay $8 per shot.

Effectively, this is a poorly done, overly broad way to ban the 50 BMG which is bullshit. The state's blocking of public land from practice for long range rifle shooting is far more effective at preventing hits than banning a caliber that isn't even that great for ELR shooting.

50 cal this year, 45 cal, next year, .223 the year after.....

Best argument to convince someone who doesn't believe that the second amendment is about having firepower equivalent to a military:

This would restrict many sporting and hunting guns such as vintage double barreled stopping rifles like what Teddy Roosevelt would have used. It would also restrict single-shot rifles chambered in handgun cartridges.

Slippery slope arguments are based in reality, but most politicians don't seem to think that way.

As an aside, Bear Creek Arms seems to have some very cheap 50 Beowulf uppers. This bill makes me want one

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/assault-rifles-and-shotguns-would-still-be-allowed-in-hawaii-under-amended-bill/



why the mask? afraid to face the people? Or trying out for Jabbawockeez?

The same bill from a year or two ago had no exemptions for hunting. I had submitted testimony that guns with bullet sizes over .50 cal were used for hunting and were common among black powder guns. This years bill had the exemption for black powder guns so it does appear they took that into account.

The only other argument I can think of is that it is very rare to have a murder with a .50 cal or anything similar. Murders with very large calibers simply doesn't exist as a real problem.

If you try and appease them that's not fighting back, but negotiating the terms of your surrender.

You may think you win some concessions here and there, but the big picture is this never ends until they've taken everything.

Death by a thousand cuts.

Marvin talks about using a .243 bolt action for hunting as to why someone would want to use an "assault rifle" for hunting.

That's his logical argument.  To try to ban assault weapons.

If successful this same "logical" person most likely will go after the .243 bolt action rifle. 

It will never end.  Because they are not interested in gun control like they say.  Their agenda is the complete ban of guns to civilian society.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/assault-rifles-and-shotguns-would-still-be-allowed-in-hawaii-under-amended-bill/



why the mask? afraid to face the people? Or trying out for Jabbawockeez?

Everyone but Buenavenutra, Awa, and Gabbard was wearing a mask. This includes the support staff sitting behind them.  At least Marx is consistent and wears his mask when walking outside. Elefante takes his mask off when speaking into the mic.  Prob wearing it to appease his master, Marx.

The only other argument I can think of is that it is very rare to have a murder with a .50 cal or anything similar. Murders with very large calibers simply doesn't exist as a real problem.

Its about shooting down airplanes.

Its about shooting down airplanes.

quick, everybody google search how much windage you need to dial for an target moving at 600 knots.

https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/

KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.

“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”

I think the Remington 700 bolt action is still very popular with the military, US and most-if-not-all modern foreign militaries, if we're going to talk about "weapons of war".
I think the Houthis are still using WW1 relic rifles, and apparently they are giving the Saudis a spanking.

and as far as criminals go, I'd bet that the .22LR has been used for more crimes than any 50 cal.  Hawaii, and nation-wide.
of course, 9mm Glock is the most popular choice for the saggy-pants gang-banger population segment.  and Glock-with-switch being the most sought-after.  But Glock switches are already extremely illegal-as hell, six ways to Sunday, banning them would be like beating the dead horse after it came out of the soap factory.

.50 cal is popular with sport shooters and firearms enthusiasts, not so much with criminals.  will not reduce crime, not even by 0.001%.  will not save "even one life".

so yeah, arbitrary and capricious.  adversely affects only law-abiding citizens, and their range-buddies, who (hopefully) vote.

https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/

KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.

“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”

So he admits it will have no effect on crime, and hes only doing it because he wants to deny law abiding citizens. Looks like we got a winner for "best rhetoric".