2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Tom on January 10, 2014, 10:27:39 AM
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Hi,
In another thread, it was asserted that AOWs and DDs are legal here in Hawaii. Has anyone actually acquired one and gotten the Chief's signature on the NFA ATF forms? Does he sign the forms?
--tom
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Hi,
In another thread, it was asserted that AOWs and DDs are legal here in Hawaii. Has anyone actually acquired one and gotten the Chief's signature on the NFA ATF forms? Does he sign the forms?
--tom
Individuals cannot own any NFA firearms which are kept within HI.
State and county law enforcement officers who are not convicted of an offense
involving abuse of a family or household member under 709-906 can own
and possess Silencers and Machine Guns and Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS) and
Short Barreled Rifles (SBR).
In Hawaii you cannot own the following NFA restricted items.
Silencers*
Machine Guns*
Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS)*
Short Barreled Rifles (SBR)*
Any Other Weapon (AOW)
Destructive Devices (DD)
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/any-other-weapons-aows/ (http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/any-other-weapons-aows/)
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http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/any-other-weapons-aows/ (http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/any-other-weapons-aows/)
Not sure this is correct. A cane gun is NFA AOW but I don't see anything in the Hawaii statutes which prohibit it
§134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties. (a) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited: assault pistols, except as provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting caps, bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon....
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Certain AOW not meeting the terms of any restricted firearms are legal in hawaii.
Examples are the cane gun, belt gun, smooth ore handgun, handguns with a foregrip.
DD that is already registered with ATF (tax paid) do not require registration in hawaii thus legal to own.
Examples are 20mm, 40mm, 120mm, street sweeper.
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Back to the original question; will the police chiefs actually sign the atf form required for the stamp ? Has anyone done this? The signature is required for nfa aow, right?
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Back to the original question; will the police chiefs actually sign the atf form required for the stamp ? Has anyone done this? The signature is required for nfa aow, right?
They will not sign!
Buy on Mainland , pay $5 to tranfer to a class 3 dealer in mainland , fly it back
Or
OGC is a 3 dealer and is able to also do. a transfer to a corp or trust.
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Corporations and Trust do not require a signature.
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I can just see someone getting arrested because of the bad advise given in this forum.
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I can just see someone getting arrested because of the bad advise given in this forum.
What do you mean "bad advice?"
You know you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true ...
:rofl:
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I can just see someone getting arrested because of the bad advise given in this forum.
Well if its bad advise you'll missing the fun of actually being able to shoot legal AOWs in Hawaii. If you do enough homework and discussion with NFA lawyers, it's pretty nice how poorly the law is written. And yes i do have a lawyer to back me up if my AOW was confiscated .
Belt guns are actually so rare they are classified as C&R by the BATF.
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Well if its bad advise you'll missing the fun of actually being able to shoot legal AOWs in Hawaii. If you do enough homework and discussion with NFA lawyers, it's pretty nice how poorly the law is written. And yes i do have a lawyer to back me up if my AOW was confiscated .
Belt guns are actually so rare they are classified as C&R by the BATF.
The golden question is, are you in Hawaii and is your AOW gun registered with HPD as a AOW?
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Are you trying to get someone arrested and more heat put on the firearms community?
ALL firearms must be registered, period; unless they meet the description of those firearms that do not need to be registered, as outlined in HRS 134.
I suggest anyone wanting to follow these recommendations call HPD before you get your ass thrown in jail.
Read the law:
134-3(d)
(d) Registration shall not be required for:
(1) Any device that is designed to fire loose black powder or that is a firearm manufactured before 1899;
(2) Any device not designed to fire or made incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition; or
(3) All unserviceable firearms and destructive devices registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms of the United States Department of Justice pursuant to Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations.
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The golden question is, are you in Hawaii and is your AOW gun registered with HPD as a AOW?
Registered as an AOW with ATF,
HPD can only recognize it as a pistol.
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Registered as an AOW with ATF,
HPD can only recognize it as a pistol.
Still didn't answer my question. Is it registered with hpd?
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as a pistol with HPD
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as a pistol with HPD
I think most folks would be more inclined to believe what is being posted here if someone were to post pics of the actual pistol and a copy of the registration ... personal information redacted, of course.
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Not mine, but similar.
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Not mine, but similar.
Well if its bad advise you'll missing the fun of actually being able to shoot legal AOWs in Hawaii. If you do enough homework and discussion with NFA lawyers, it's pretty nice how poorly the law is written. And yes i do have a lawyer to back me up if my AOW was confiscated .
Belt guns are actually so rare they are classified as C&R by the BATF.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what, exactly, is the "fun" aspect of shooting this? Is it that feeling of superiority you get knowing you added a grip to a Glock, and the COPs can't take it from you?
I'm confused... ???
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Yeap
:thumbsup:
Its great to find loopholes in the laws. That's the fun part.
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Yeap
:thumbsup:
Its great to find loopholes in the laws. That's the fun part.
Rather than make lawyers richer, I prefer to spend my cash on more productive endeavors: firearms, accessories, ammo, cleaning supplies, cases, targets and frames, gas for the car, vacations to areas I can enjoy my guns, etc.
Pushing the envelope of the legal system might give you a stiffie, but at some point in time you will more than likely have the item in question confiscated if it isn't registered until a judge hears your case. You and your lawyer will have to appear in court, and you'll waste valuable time preparing ... all for a foregrip on a Glock?
If the firearm in question all on its own were more "fun" (explosive, full-auto, 15+ round mag, sound suppressor, etc.), maybe I could see the point. If it's purely a matter of principle, then there are PLENTY of other rights and firearms under attack by the anti-gunners to defend. No need to invent another weapon to have to protect from a potential ban!
Just my opinion. If this sort of "windmill jousting" trips your trigger, then have at it!
:thumbsup:
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Glock $500
Grip $40
ATF Transfer $5
Not too much money.
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Glock $500
Grip $40
ATF Transfer $5
Not too much money.
Add to that the risk of having the gun confiscated and charges brought for an unregistered handgun, and the cost of a lawyer to defend you and get the gun returned.
Also, your earlier post breezed past the first step you listed: "Buy on Mainland." I believe the ATF requires a $200 NFA fee when the NFA item is manufactured/modified/purchased. If simply "transferring" an NFA item for $5 circumvents the $200 permit fee, nobody would ever have to pay the $200.
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Q: How can an individual legally acquire NFA firearms?
Basically, there are 2 ways that an individual (who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from receiving or possessing firearms) may legally acquire NFA firearms:
By transfer after approval by ATF of a registered weapon from its lawful owner residing in the same State as the transferee.
By obtaining prior approval from ATF to make NFA firearms.
[27 CFR 479.62-66 and 479.84-86]
Q: What is the tax on making an NFA firearm?
The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including “any other weapon.”
Q: How is this tax paid?
A money order or check made payable to the Bureau of ATF together with the application forms are to be mailed to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#nfa-tax (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#nfa-tax)
So, also add the cost of the FFL, since you can't legally have the item transferred from the mainland to here without it. $5 is not going to cover the FFL.
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An SOT makes the AOW not the individual. SOT do not pay the normal $200 manufacture tax.
The SOT transfer the AOW to the end user for $5 tax stamp.
You can travel with a NFA under a 5320.20.
. The tax for privately manufacturing any NFA firearm (other than machineguns, which are generally illegal to manufacture) is $200. Transferring requires a $200 tax for all NFA except AOW's, for which the transfer tax is $5 (although the manufacturing tax remains $200).
Dealers who pay a special yearly occupational tax are exempt from these taxes for transfers to or from other special occupational tax (SOT)
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Under HRS134.
AOW are not prohibited. Only machine guns , suppressor, SBR, sbs, assault pistols, etc.....
A Glock with a foregrip does not fall into any of those catagories.
The burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt can anyone prove that an pistol with a foregrip is prohibited under HRS?
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Suka is following the letter of the law. Nothing wrong with that. Why create a self-ban on a perfectly legal gun to own? If he wants that gun, it's his right. Remember, bill of rights not needs .
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$5 NFA tax stamp
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Here the process if you don't have dual residence in another state.
Get a lawyer to Set up a limited revokable trust with yourself as the only trustee. LEO in hawaii will not sign!
OGC is a class 3/SOT dealer. Which means they can manufacture the AOW in house or transfer one from a mainland SOT.
File your ATF paperwork
Wait 8 months
Register at HPD as a pistol. Wait 2 more weeks.
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Here the process if you don't have dual residence in another state.
Get a lawyer to Set up a limited revokable trust with yourself as the only trustee. LEO in hawaii will not sign!
OGC is a class 3/SOT dealer. Which means they can manufacture the AOW in house or transfer one from a mainland SOT.
File your ATF paperwork
Wait 8 months
Register at HPD as a pistol. Wait 2 more weeks.
I really hope this dialogue is helping somebody else.
Short of being able to say, "Because I can!", I'm unable to see the real benefit of going this route for allowable NFA items here. It looks to me like a lot of work for no real quantifiable, tangible payoff.
If, however, the Glock were a 1926 Tommy Gun, then I'd be all over this!! :D
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Here the process if you don't have dual residence in another state.
Get a lawyer to Set up a limited revokable trust with yourself as the only trustee. LEO in hawaii will not sign!
OGC is a class 3/SOT dealer. Which means they can manufacture the AOW in house or transfer one from a mainland SOT.
File your ATF paperwork
Wait 8 months
Register at HPD as a pistol. Wait 2 more weeks.
Ok, so you took the front grip off then registered as a normal glock pistol. After registering it you put the front grip back on and now you are claiming that you have a AOW in hawaii? If so that's fucking dumb. In reality you don't have a AOW registered in hawaii, with HPD, as a AOW.
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HPD can only recognize it as a pistol regardless if its a NFA item. Any firearm not having a sixteen inch barrel (only) as defined by HRS is a pistol. Regardless of other features. ATF has a different definition for a handgun. Notice the two has different names to describe the same type of firearm ; pistol and handgun.
HPD has only 2 classifications for civilians, long gun, pistol. DD and black powder gun do not require registration thus HPD does not have any classification for these firearms.
A Glock with a foregrip is an AOW to the ATF, but is just another pistol to HPD. Slapping a foregrip on a pistol break NO HRS state laws but slapping a foregrip on a handgun without tax paid violates federal USC laws.
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Non NFA...wonder if we've any separate laws pertaining to this..
(http://augerprecisionfirearms.com/image/cache/data/nonnfa500-500x500.jpg)
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I really hope this dialogue is helping somebody else.
Short of being able to say, "Because I can!", I'm unable to see the real benefit of going this route for allowable NFA items here. It looks to me like a lot of work for no real quantifiable, tangible payoff.
If, however, the Glock were a 1926 Tommy Gun, then I'd be all over this!! :D
Having started this thread, I can say it has helped me enormously. There are other types of guns classified as AOW that I am interested in. The fact that you would prefer a 1926 Tommy Gun to a Glock with a fore grip is a matter of taste and preference. I think we can all agree it is shame that we can't procure a 1926 Tommy Gun here in Hawaii.
--tom
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Tom, not all AOW are allowed in hawaii.
Most meet the criteria of an assault pistol, conceled weapon, or SBR. Which are nono under HRS.
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Tom, not all AOW are allowed in hawaii.
Most meet the criteria of an assault pistol, conceled weapon, or SBR. Which are nono under HRS.
Didn't see the statute regarding concealed weapons. Does this include pen guns, cane guns, etc? Can you point me to the statute? Do smoothbore pistols count as short barreled shotguns or pistols in Hawaii?
--tom
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Any type of handgun with a smooth bore is an AOW under ATF. And just a normal pistol under HRS.
Cane guns, pen guns are also AOW and are also pistols under HRS. A certain gun store in hawaii actually sold pen gun awhile ago.
Some vintage belt gun are on the C&R list.
Since we cant conceal carry , cane guns, pen guns, belt guns cannot be worn and must be cased just like normal firearms. ( place to keep)
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This thread gave me a headache.
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Any type of handgun with a smooth bore is an AOW under ATF. And just a normal pistol under HRS.
Since we cant conceal carry , cane guns, pen guns, belt guns cannot be worn and must be cased just like normal firearms. ( place to keep)
There does not appear to be a definition of shotgun in the HRS. But HRS 134-8 prohibits "shotguns with barrel length under 18 inches" (SBS). Would a smooth bore pistol not be classified as an SBS for Hawaii purposes? Is the lack of a stock or the fact that it was manufactured as a pistol the key to having it not declared an SBS? Or does the AOW stamp protect you in some sense?
--tom
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HPD can only recognize it as a pistol regardless if its a NFA item. Any firearm not having a sixteen inch barrel (only) as defined by HRS is a pistol. Regardless of other features. ATF has a different definition for a handgun. Notice the two has different names to describe the same type of firearm ; pistol and handgun.
HPD has only 2 classifications for civilians, long gun, pistol. DD and black powder gun do not require registration thus HPD does not have any classification for these firearms.
Not to butt heads, but HRS 134-1 only really defines a pistol and a firearm. If you were looking at the statute, you could say it's a pistol or a firearm. They don't define rifle or shotgun in the statutory definitions; I have not seen them defined else where either.
If not a pistol, then legislatively speaking, we couldn't really say what the hell it is imo! I don't think they can pull into federal regs for their statutes either. Had they of defined what a rifle is then we could probably have a couple more guns.
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Q:
Things still have to be defined in the law for the user to have proper notice. The entire gun rights game in pain in the ass states like California has been designed around language and statutory construction. If it doesn't meet the requirements of the law, it's not covered. Common sense counts for us, but not for them!
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There does not appear to be a definition of shotgun in the HRS. But HRS 134-8 prohibits "shotguns with barrel length under 18 inches" (SBS). Would a smooth bore pistol not be classified as an SBS for Hawaii purposes? Is the lack of a stock or the fact that it was manufactured as a pistol the key to having it not declared an SBS? Or does the AOW stamp protect you in some sense?
--tom
Under the GCA 68' a shotgun is defined:
18 USC 921(A)(5) and 27 CFR 478.11
The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or .............................. and intended to be fired from the shoulder,............ to fire through a smooth bore.
HRS does not define "shotgun" only barrel length of a firearm.
Thus, a smooth bore handgun cannot be an SBS because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulders.
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Under the GCA 68' a shotgun is defined:
18 USC 921(A)(5) and 27 CFR 478.11
The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or .............................. and intended to be fired from the shoulder,............ to fire through a smooth bore.
HRS does not define "shotgun" only barrel length of a firearm.
Thus, a smooth bore handgun cannot be an SBS because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulders.
Go buy a UTS or KSG shotgun! If those don't satisfy you, then I doubt the SBS would offer anything more.
Just my 2 cents! ...
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UTS , Dealer cost is $790 have one on order!!!! >:D
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This is considered a SBS, therefore illegal.
And before anyone starts crying about 'what is defined as a shotgun?', lets exercise some common sense:
1) What does it fire? 12ga.
2) What is the manufacture description of this weapon? Shotgun, short barrel shotgun, or sawed-off shotgun.
3) If defined as one of the descriptions above, what was the original intended use of this weapon? To be used as a shotgun.
"Since pistol grip only shotguns transfer as an “Other,” the ATF doesn’t consider them as shotguns by definition and as long as the overall length is greater than 26”, it isn’t considered an AOW by the ATF. With the non-NFA Mossberg conversion, the overall length is 26.5”so you can have a 14” barrel without the tax stamp. Auger Precision even includes the ATF tech letters with the conversion."
This is a Mossberg 500 that was built on a 500 Cruiser PGO firearm. the total length is 26 1/2". We use a complete 14" front end from a Mossberg 590A1 and a birds head grip to achieve the 26 1/2" total length. These will come in the original Mossberg 500 Crusier box for those that want to be ablt to prove that it has never had a stock on it. Each one will also come with copies of the ATF tech branch letters stating the ATF's opiniion that these are indeed federally legal and do not require a tax stamp. Please check you local and state laws to ensure that these are legal where you live. If you have any questions about these, please send us an email. More pictures will be up soon.
Good luck trying to convince the people behind the desk that this isn't a shotgun without some legal intervention on your behalf.
As DJT stated, playing legal world twister is fine if you want to spend the time doing so. But after countless hours and lawyer fees trying to prove your point, do you really want to waste your time and piss the people off who will later detail the fine points of the law to make it harder for us?
If anyone wants a SBS, get a shotgun with a 18'' barrel and a pistol grip. It will save us all the headache down the road. Just make sure you pretend you play terminator and fire it one hand so we can laugh at you when you sprain your wrist. A 18.5" barrel with or without a pistol grip is not a SBS.
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Yeah, but its the closest you will ever come to one in Hawaii.
Anyone who thinks they need a SBS is really a dumbass who has never really fired one, because aside from an attention draw it is no different than a 18.5'' barrel, 24'' overall w/ a pistol grip, unless you consider the fact that it has more rounds.
And if anyone thinks they need a 14'' weapon to maneuver around their home, they obviously have some issues, have misconstrued concepts of how NOT awesome firing one of these is, or are just trying to be ichiban tactical fan boy.
Q
you should let things out instead of holding back all the time
let us know how you really feel
:popcorn:
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Yeah, but its the closest you will ever come to one in Hawaii.
Anyone who thinks they need a SBS is really a dumbass who has never really fired one, because aside from an attention draw it is no different than a 18.5'' barrel, 24'' overall w/ a pistol grip, unless you consider the fact that it has more rounds.
And if anyone thinks they need a 14'' weapon to maneuver around their home, they obviously have some issues, have misconstrued concepts of how NOT awesome firing one of these is, or are just trying to be ichiban tactical fan boy.
Yes it's a 4.5" difference between at 18.5.
No one NEEDS and AR either. But I certainly wouldn't turn down a SBS or SBR.
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Shooting that out of the car would be interesting. I need one of these because it just looks cool =p. In fact... I need them all! They are like pokemon.
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If someone wants to invest THEIR own time, money, and effort to legally obtain and own a firearm that falls within that grey area of statutory interpretation, and if that person possesses the prerequisite appetite for risk, then I, as a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, am all for it.
IMO, there is no grey area. If something is not illegal, it is legal. If it's legal and you want it, that's your right.
--tom
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IMO, there is no grey area. If something is not illegal, it is legal. If it's legal and you want it, that's your right.
--tom
There is always grey area. It's just another name for "ambiguity." Our geniuses in the legislature wordsmith and amend laws to the point there are always contradictions and inconsistencies. Those problems create ambiguous laws.
Courts normally interpret ambiguous laws in favor of the individual, not the state. Unfortunately, you have to go to court to get that ruling. In the meantime, you are subjected to the decisions of those registering firearms to allow/disallow whatever you think is legal.
In a perfect world, the law would be easy. We live in a world of lawyers and politicians who often pass laws of which they have no firsthand knowledge.
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There is always grey area. It's just another name for "ambiguity." Our geniuses in the legislature wordsmith and amend laws to the point there are always contradictions and inconsistencies. Those problems create ambiguous laws.
Good point. However, the AOWs we have been discussing do not fall into a grey area. There is a list of firearm types which are illegal in HRS. If the type of firearm you desire is not in that list, it's legal as per Hawaii law. That isn't even an overly technical reading of the law. I would not consider it a loophole or a drafting error (both of which I would consider a grey area). If you want one by all means buy it. I don't buy the "self-ban" concept of not acquiring because someone might change the law to make it illegal later. "A right not exercised is a right lost".
The "why do you need it?" question, as others have stated, is the tactic used by anti-gunners to attack our rights.
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I concede that there are grey areas, I just don't think this is one of them.
On a lighter note there is a story I read about a while ago where a man was convicted of murder. New York, at the time, was transitioning from hanging to the electric chair for capital punishment. There was a several month gap where, due to a legislative error, hanging was illegal but the electric chair was not yet legal. The attorneys argued that there was no way for the state to execute him and since the man was convicted of murder and execution was mandatory, the state did not have the option to imprison him. Therefore, he should be released. I believe the case went up to the New York State Supreme court which stated something like “A slip in syntax should not legalize murder”. He was hung.
That’s a grey area!
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In that case, I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need this, complete with background music as well!
http://youtu.be/SCnumxfr_YM (http://youtu.be/SCnumxfr_YM)
never mind
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sorry for the zombie thread but would i be able to get a serbu super shorty into Hawaii legally through this route?
also would this really mean i can bring in a non NFA shotgun and have it registered as a pistol here in hawaii?
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only certain aow are legal in hawaii, if they di not conflict with HRS.
a shorty is a shotgun, under hrs it must have a 18" barrel.
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also would this really mean i can bring in a non NFA shotgun and have it registered as a pistol here in hawaii?
if it have / had a stock it cannot be turned into a handgun.
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only certain aow are legal in hawaii, if they di not conflict with HRS.
a shorty is a shotgun, under hrs it must have a 18" barrel.
do know where the definition for shotgun length is? all i can find is stuff about transferring to people under 18 and in the definitions there isn't anything covering shotguns and their length.
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§134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties. (a) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited: assault pistols, except as provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting caps, bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof designed or intended to explode or segment upon impact with its target.
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§134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties. (a) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited: assault pistols, except as provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting caps, bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof designed or intended to explode or segment upon impact with its target.
is there any definition for shotgun in the HRS?
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what i mean by asking this is that if there isn't no definition for shotgun and it doesn't have an 18 barrel and it's barrel is less than 16 inches then it falls under the pistol category by my sea lawyer understanding of the HRS definitions of what is a pistol.
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shotgun ,rifle , handguns, etc are defined by the ATF
pistols are specificly defined by HRS
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what i mean by asking this is that if there isn't no definition for shotgun and it doesn't have an 18 barrel and it's barrel is less than 16 inches then it falls under the pistol category by my sea lawyer understanding of the HRS definitions of what is a pistol.
it has a stock = not a handgun by atf
it has a smooth bore less than 16" = nfa by atf
designed to fire a "shotshell" from sholder (single or multiple projectiles) = shotgun by atf
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shotgun ,rifle , handguns, etc are defined by the ATF
pistols are specificly defined by HRS
well if they do go off the ATF defenition of a shotgun then this really helps in getting those non NFA 14in 12ga handguns legally registered.
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well if they do go off the ATF defenition of a shotgun then this really helps in getting those non NFA 14in 12ga handguns legally registered.
true
but hawaii has the 18" barrel rule.
atf has ruled the franklin ar pistol with foregrip not a NFA because it meets 26" overall.it seems the atf made the same ruling with the shotguns having anOAL of 26"
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true
but hawaii has the 18" barrel rule.
atf has ruled the franklin ar pistol with foregrip not a NFA because it meets 26" overall.it seems the atf made the same ruling with the shotguns having anOAL of 26"
but if you also take the HRS definition of a pistol
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
meaning it wouldn't be a shotgun and if it isn't semi auto. i would like to think it would work and hold up in court just by cornering them in their own definitions.
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the attorney general will combine definition to get a conviction.
but im pretty sure this shotgun case will not rule in your favor in a hawaii court .
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the attorney general will combine definition to get a conviction.
but im pretty sure this shotgun case will not rule in your favor in a hawaii court .
oh i have no doubt that the courts in Hawaii would rule in favor of the govt rules much like they have with ccw.
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stick to the basic aow
smothbore handguns
belt guns
cane guns
handgun foregrips
and all destructive devices
OGC is a SOT 2
and can transfer all class 3 NFA
except D/D
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according to the atf:
if it accepts a shotshell, has a smooth bore and designed to be fired from the shoulders ; its a shotgun by name.
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more digging and here is the conclusion:
the 14.5 barreled shotgun with an oal of 26" is nither a "shotgun" nor an Aow. they are just a firearm.
perfectlly legal under HRS!!!!!!!!
The definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the receiver the firearms in question, cant be fired from the shoulder and are therefore never was "shotgun" . Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t "shotguns" to begin with.
firearms that have an OAL of 26″ can’t be defined as AOWs. That’s because the term “any other weapon” (AOW) means “any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person…” And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26″.
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so far i have gotten the federal laws out of the way. attched is a ATF letter to my previous post.
now lets examine HRS more closely.
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under HRS this type of firearm ( mentioned on this page)
would be classifed as a normal "pistol" under HRS 134-1
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
ok kids,
get your pistol permits for shorty shotgun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :worship:
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glad to see you guys are up to speed on what i was suggesting.
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oh btw
the barrel MUST be rifled to avoid the smoothbore category of an AOW handgun.
as we all know a smoothbore handgun is a NFA Item.
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oh btw
the barrel MUST be rifled to avoid the smoothbore category of an AOW handgun.
as we all know a smoothbore handgun is a NFA Item.
you would only have to worry about the smoothbore part if it was going to be concealable.
since the overall shotgun length is still more than 26 inches long you don't have to worry about being smoothebore or rifled.
and since hawaii has no minimum length laws we only need to meet the ATF requirement.
because it isn't considered a shotgun by the ATF defenition so we don't have to worry about the 18inch shotgun length.
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ordered a 24" rifled barrel to cut down
you are right 808 its just a handgun and 26" wont be a factor if it was rifled.
but since the mounting post is just at 14"-15" its the shortest length do-able without further modification to the ammunition chamber.
the firearm must also be transferred as an "other firearm" on the 4473.
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ordered a 24" rifled barrel to cut down
you are right 808 its just a handgun and 26" wont be a factor if it was rifled.
but since the mounting post is just at 14"-15" its the shortest length do-able without further modification to the ammunition chamber.
the firearm must also be transferred as an "other firearm" on the 4473.
i think i understand what you're aiming for with your build. i'm gonna be going the 14in mossberg 500. gonna call them tomorrow
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i think i understand what you're aiming for with your build. i'm gonna be going the 14in mossberg 500. gonna call them tomorrow
yeap
far less confusion, trying to convince HPD and ATF
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yeap
far less confusion, trying to convince HPD and ATF
the only problem that concerns me is buying it in hawaii might be more confusing since it shows up with an 18in barrel and is sold under a longgun permit. it might throw the HPD off when i show up with the new grip and barrel and try to get it reg'd as a pistol instead.
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the only problem that concerns me is buying it in hawaii might be more confusing since it shows up with an 18in barrel and is sold under a longgun permit. it might throw the HPD off when i show up with the new grip and barrel and try to get it reg'd as a pistol instead.
inform the FFL first !
and check other firearm on the 4473
and apply for the pistol permit.
or just have the FFL order it and buy it from them
informing them what you plan to do
maybe easier to just fly it back on the airlines.
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inform the FFL first !
and check other firearm on the 4473
and apply for the pistol permit.
or just have the FFL order it and buy it from them
informing them what you plan to do
maybe easier to just fly it back on the airlines.
that's what i'm thinking of right now too or i buy one from my friend on the mainland and he ships it to the FFL already set up for reg as pistol.
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that's what i'm thinking of right now too or i buy one from my friend on the mainland and he ships it to the FFL already set up for reg as pistol.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Sorry folks... anything that is 12 gage is a shotgun. pistols can only be in 410. and all shotguns have to be at least 27 inches overall with a barrel of at least 18 inches. short barreled shot guns can only be registered by a Law enforcement or Government agency. not an individual. I have brought in SBS's before for the coast guard (line launcher) had to be registered to the agency by a representative of the agency. Anyone that walks in to HPD with a class III or AOW will get arrested. If you have any questions call Aldo at the local ATF office. I have done that many of times in the last 20 years. they will take your question and get back to you in a couple of days. That's my GOOD ADVICE!
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Sorry folks... anything that is 12 gage is a shotgun. pistols can only be in 410. and all shotguns have to be at least 27 inches overall with a barrel of at least 18 inches. short barreled shot guns can only be registered by a Law enforcement or Government agency. not an individual. I have brought in SBS's before for the coast guard (line launcher) had to be registered to the agency by a representative of the agency. Anyone that walks in to HPD with a class III or AOW will get arrested. If you have any questions call Aldo at the local ATF office. I have done that many of times in the last 20 years. they will take your question and get back to you in a couple of days. That's my GOOD ADVICE!
the ATF already has a ruling on this and it has stated that a 12ga firearm that has at least an overall length of 26 inches is not considered an AOW. because the firearm has never had a stock attached to it, it is not considered a shotgun by the ATF, placing it in a other category much like a stripped lower.
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Nope.
The weapon was never originally classified as a shotgun, so it is not considered an SBS. In order to be considered an SBS, it must be first created as a shotgun, and then shortened.
That's why this is a $5 tax stamp and not a $200 one.
it we are talking about the same gun. the ATF agent here told me there is no tax at all.
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build title one gun no tax
SOT build class 3 no tax
build any class 3 is $200 including AOW
transfer all class 3 is $200 except AOW
AOW transfers at $5
so have a SOT build a AOW and tranfer it to save $ instead of building it yourself.
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it we are talking about the same gun. the ATF agent here told me there is no tax at all.
dont forget the 11% tax to help the animals
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tex
certain tax paid AOW are just normal handgun in hawaii. certain AOW may be brought over from the mainland
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I wonder what hawaii considers it?
Hawaii fails to define a shotgun.
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more digging and here is the conclusion:
the 14.5 barreled shotgun with an oal of 26" is nither a "shotgun" nor an Aow. they are just a firearm.
perfectlly legal under HRS!!!!!!!!
The definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the receiver the firearms in question, cant be fired from the shoulder and are therefore never was "shotgun" . Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t "shotguns" to begin with.
firearms that have an OAL of 26″ can’t be defined as AOWs. That’s because the term “any other weapon” (AOW) means “any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person…” And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26″.
Where did you get that definition?
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26 USC 5845
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something i forgot to add
you can fly your AOW back or mail then
register them as normal pistols with HPD.
but retaining NFA status and features.
no atf 5320 required for interstate travel of AOW.
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AOW and suppressors do not require form 5320.20
18USC 922(a)4
(4) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity;
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Sorry folks... anything that is 12 gage is a shotgun. pistols can only be in 410. and all shotguns have to be at least 27 inches overall with a barrel of at least 18 inches. short barreled shot guns can only be registered by a Law enforcement or Government agency. not an individual. I have brought in SBS's before for the coast guard (line launcher) had to be registered to the agency by a representative of the agency. Anyone that walks in to HPD with a class III or AOW will get arrested. If you have any questions call Aldo at the local ATF office. I have done that many of times in the last 20 years. they will take your question and get back to you in a couple of days. That's my GOOD ADVICE!
It takes way more characteristics than this to be a shotgun. A flaregun pistol is not a shotgun. There are also single shot pistols that shoot shotgun shells. Not sure who the hell told you this - it's certainly not in state law. Furthermore, HPD is not a rule making body.
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So Far
i seems cheaper to pay $200 tax on a Form 1 than to buy from Serbu (super shorty).
Super shorty price has gone up from $705
FORM 1 PGO Firearm is about $250 + $200 tax = $540
FORM 4 SERBU Super Shorty $1100 + $5 tax + $55 SOT3 (ffl) = $1160
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Where did you get that definition?
Senate Report #1303 86th Congress (2nd session 1960)
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26 U.S.C. 5845