2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Q on February 09, 2014, 09:07:21 PM
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Yup the fire trucks passed us on the way home.
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We should log all rescues on this thread to keep an account of the 'dangers' of hiking the mountain and the cost to taxpayers. This log could be used as evidence, to prevent further closure attempts, when people use the trail as an excuse to shut the range down.
Please log all known rescues, time, date, and other pertinent issues.
Thanks Q
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how about Twitter?
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Why not bring it up at the HK cat convention?
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Why not bring it up at the HK cat convention?
one of the HK neighborhood board members asked HFD about trail rescues at the last meeting
their answer was, "uhhh" and then the chair moved the discussion along
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I'm VERY INTERESTED, in this subject. If anybody has seen or knows of rescues having to be made on KH trail, please PM me with any info. Particularly the number of rescues per month, year, etc. Also info on rescues/injuries on other trails around the island. Just now on the news there was a report on a couple of knuckle heads that are going to be helicoptered off of stairway to heaven.
Thanks!
:shaka:
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If you happen to be at the range on a regular basis weekly or if you live at the base of the crater, you will note how frequent rescues involving HFD and EMS really are. In one year, I would bet it easily costs taxpayers more money on first responder aid than entire cost of the recent range renovations and I am talking about that one trail only.
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Don't think we should be playing tit for tat with the hiking trail. The users vastly out number the users at the range. If you piss them off and they start a petition against the range we will lose in the long run. Those of you that just moved here and don't plan on staying here for life Don't be dumb asses and fuck it up for us that call this home.
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Those of you that just moved here and don't plan on staying here for life Don't be dumb asses and fuck it up for us that call this home.
that's unnecessary
yesterday's blowup was bad enough and now you want to start another one?
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Just stating the obvious. Why are we going to pick a fight with the hikers over our frustration with the city.
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Don't think we should be playing tit for tat with the hiking trail. The users vastly out number the users at the range. If you piss them off and they start a petition against the range we will lose in the long run. Those of you that just moved here and don't plan on staying here for life Don't be dumb asses and fuck it up for us that call this home.
No plans for playing "tit for tat" as you put it. Just compiling information, and not just about KH trail. But your opinion is duly noted.
BTW, I've lived here for 36 years, 18 of which have been in Koko Head Terrace. Married to a local girl, 2 kids, 1 that goes to Kamiloiki, 1 you probably know.
Dial back that attitude maybe?
Thanks, :shaka:
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Haha. I guess my post came off a little grumpy. Good! BTW, it was a general statement not directed at anyone in general, just food for thought.
Last I checked the range was controlled by the city and kokohead is state land. So good luck trying to use one to get something for the other, we all know how well the state works with the city.
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Just stating the obvious. Why are we going to pick a fight with the hikers over our frustration with the city.
Not trying to pick a fight with the hikers. If they want to go down range of a live fire area, that's up to them. I just want to collect the information in case they want to bring up the range costs and use the trail as an excuse. Which has been done. One can argue about the number of rescues, but if you have solid real data you are better off.
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Just stating the obvious. Why are we going to pick a fight with the hikers over our frustration with the city.
I don't think a majority of the members here are frustrated with the city at this point - or at least IMO they shouldn't be if you look at the facts. A lot of people were frustrated because they weren't able to shoot, but now that the range is open, everything is back to normal so to speak. Without getting into the veracity of the claims, which have been several threads in themselves, the mayor and the city said they'd have the range open by the 29th. What happened? In the end they opened the range a few days earlier than planned. Wait, did I just say that? A government emergency renovation that didn't take longer than planned to fix, and wasn't forgotten about? :shake: :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
Let's all remember that the trail was "closed" once before. Hiking that trail is a privilege - just look at what happened with Mariner's Ridge. Kamehameha Schools got tired of the complaints from the home owners about people leaving trash behind, not picking up after their pets, and ending up in people's backyards, so they put up that fence to keep unwanted people out. Now the only way to legally hike that trail is by monthly guided tour. What I'm saying that there will be a point in time again which either the city or state gets fed up with all the headaches that come from the trail and shutters it again - or at least restricts access. I don't see the harm in helpfully reminding the city of how often resources are diverted to supporting that trail.
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I don't think a majority of the members here are frustrated with the city at this point - or at least IMO they shouldn't be if you look at the facts. A lot of people were frustrated because they weren't able to shoot, but now that the range is open, everything is back to normal so to speak. Without getting into the veracity of the claims, which have been several threads in themselves, the mayor and the city said they'd have the range open by the 29th. What happened? In the end they opened the range a few days earlier than planned. Wait, did I just say that? A government emergency renovation that didn't take longer than planned to fix, and wasn't forgotten about? :shake: :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
Let's all remember that the trail was "closed" once before. Hiking that trail is a privilege - just look at what happened with Mariner's Ridge. Kamehameha Schools got tired of the complaints from the home owners about people leaving trash behind, not picking up after their pets, and ending up in people's backyards, so they put up that fence to keep unwanted people out. Now the only way to legally hike that trail is by monthly guided tour. What I'm saying that there will be a point in time again which either the city or state gets fed up with all the headaches that come from the trail and shutters it again - or at least restricts access. I don't see the harm in helpfully reminding the city of how often resources are diverted to supporting that trail.
+1 :thumbsup:
The city did a great job of bringing in the repairs as quickly as possible, no animosity towards them, and hopefully we can look forward to more improvements in the future.
In regards to the trails, people are dying, as evidenced by the closure of Mariners ridge, and the recent incident at Olomana trail.
It's just a matter of time before a serious incident occurs at KH trail.
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Let's all remember that the trail was "closed" once before
Just to clarify, was the trail ever really open? I know it's been used by hikers as long as I can remember (lived in Hawaii Kai since the late 70's), but to my knowledge and from what's been discussed here I was under the impression it's not sanctioned and may still be considered trespassing, officially... So I find it funny we, or at least some of the folks here on 2A, have to treat the subject of hiking Koko Crater with kid gloves. If we the tax payer are paying for people to be rescued from an "illegal" hike then we do have a valid argument.
As far as the frequency of rescues off the crater? I often see the helo up there, almost on a weekly basis. I'm sure there are rescues that happen without the need for HFD's helo as well. One of the guys I'm flying with here is a former rescue captain so I'll ask him at some point this week, I'll also ask my other friend who's one of the Air 1 pilots once I'm back home. He's already said they've had to fly several hops up the crater, sometimes twice in one day.
Anyway, I understand the concern people have over what can happen, and the tit-for-tat appearance of this particular argument. But really, if public safety is such a concern, our community leaders should either sanction that trail (going through all the hoopla required to do so) or REALLY close it.
As always, IMHO :shaka:
Boomah
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Here's a link...
It shows Koko Crater "Stairs" as Maintained by Na Ala Hele... That part of Koko Crater is NOT considered non-sanctioned, at least per the site legend.
http://www.explorationhawaii.com/hikes/ (http://www.explorationhawaii.com/hikes/)
Info on Na Ala Hele
http://hawaiitrails.ehawaii.gov/info.php (http://hawaiitrails.ehawaii.gov/info.php)
Boomah :shaka:
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Methinks the Explore Hawaii site is fudging just a bit. When you check the Na Ala Hele site, Koko Head isn't listed.
The sign at the bottom of the trail also states it is "Not maintained". So I think the State may disagree as well.
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No kidding, I'm not sure what they consider maintained, certainly some inconsistency. I can't quite figure out who Na Ala Hele is as well, website says they're "Administered by the Division of Forestry and Wildlife – Department of Land and Natural Resources". So are they a State Agency or just a non-profit hiking group recognized by the state???
One thing I found interesting is the sheer number of trails available to the hiking enthusiasts, sanctioned or not....
Boomah :shaka:
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Methinks the Explore Hawaii site is fudging just a bit. When you check the Na Ala Hele site, Koko Head isn't listed.
The sign at the bottom of the trail also states it is "Not maintained". So I think the State may disagree as well.
Edster48 - did those signs replace this one? I climbed that hill a couple of times and remember the diamond shaped sign from below but that was years ago...
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Methinks the Explore Hawaii site is fudging just a bit. When you check the Na Ala Hele site, Koko Head isn't listed.
The sign at the bottom of the trail also states it is "Not maintained". So I think the State may disagree as well.
Seems like tacit authorization to me.
No matter you grown or flown.
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Na Ala Hele is an actual State of Hawaii DLNR organization and Koko Head is not a sanctioned trail.
Na Ala Hele maintains sanctioned trails with contracted services, volunteer, or prison labor.
https://www.facebook.com/oahu.hele?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/oahu.hele?fref=ts)
I have a friend that works for Na Ala Hele and he also complains about illegal hiking on Koko Head and other non-Sanctioned trails on Oahu.
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Edster48 - did those signs replace this one? I climbed that hill a couple of times and remember the diamond shaped sign from below but that was years ago...
Yep, a few years ago when those old signs were first put up, the hikers threw a hissy fit and got the state to back down and remove the signs.
Based on the testimony of people that said they felt perfectly safe walking down range from people firing weapons. I remember, I was there.
Quite different from the stories of having ricochets "buzzing" past their ears that we're hearing now. Amongst other things. This is why we need to document what happens at the HK board meetings and all the rescues that occur up there, for self protection.
Seems to me that if the state has to put up a sign that says " you may be seriously injured or killed" it might be wise to at least restrict access to experienced hikers, rather than allowing soccer moms to go up there with their kids because they think it's "cool". Even then, there would undoubtedly be rescues, but at least it wouldn't be the invitation to disaster that it is now.
:shaka:
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Seems like tacit authorization to me.
No matter you grown or flown.
You're correct, it is tacit authorization, and because of that, warning sign or not, it leaves the state open to a lawsuit.
Which means more of our tax dollars wasted for something completely preventable.
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I'm VERY INTERESTED, in this subject. If anybody has seen or knows of rescues having to be made on KH trail, please PM me with any info. Particularly the number of rescues per month, year, etc. Also info on rescues/injuries on other trails around the island. Just now on the news there was a report on a couple of knuckle heads that are going to be helicoptered off of stairway to heaven.
Thanks!
:shaka:
Shouldn't be that difficult. Doesn't HFD send a rep to every monthly NHB meeting? General stats to fires, rescues, medical calls misc. calls for the past month are presented. After these stats are presented, aren't questions solicited? While the rep may not have the exact number at that time, perhaps a more accurate number regarding rescues on the KH Trail can be provided for the next scheduled NHB meeting? Perhaps included on the agenda as "previous business" for the next meeting?
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Shouldn't be that difficult. Doesn't HFD send a rep to every monthly NHB meeting? General stats to fires, rescues, medical calls misc. calls for the past month are presented. After these stats are presented, aren't questions solicited? While the rep may not have the exact number at that time, perhaps a more accurate number regarding rescues on the KH Trail can be provided for the next scheduled NHB meeting? Perhaps included on the agenda as "previous business" for the next meeting?
tactic tried, but chair stifled discussion
hopefully, someone will try again
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I am not here to pick fights with anyone on any topic, however public concerns and redress is an integral part of our system. This is all public information, just summarizing it here.
The stats exist. The chair has no legitimate reason not to have this information provided by any of the C&C first responders (Police, Fire or Ambulance) to the public at a neighborhood board meeting. The Hawaii Kai board can be bypassed if they are not willing to assist in compiling theses stats. If the public has a legitimate topic of discussion that is raised at a board meeting yet it is not on the agenda for that meeting, testimony does not need to be heard, however the topic should be placed on an upcoming agenda. If anyone thinks that boards rules are being abused or violated or that any laws according to Hawaii Revised Statues Chapter 92 a complaint can be lodged with the C&C Neighborhood Commission Office.
Hawaii Revised Statues Chapter 92 (http://"http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol02_ch0046-0115/hrs0092/hrs_0092-.htm")
Information on the "Sunshine Law" and open meeting for neighborhood boards (http://"http://files.hawaii.gov/oip/January%202013%20NB%20Sunshine%20Guide.pdf")
C&C of Honolulu Neighborhood Commission Office (http://"http://www1.honolulu.gov/nco/")
C&C of Honolulu NCO request for action and follow up (http://"http://www1.honolulu.gov/nco/2008nprequestforaction06.2012.pdf")
Complaint hotline - 768-3717
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Someone plz call
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I am not here to pick fights with anyone on any topic, however public concerns and redress is an integral part of our system. This is all public information, just summarizing it here.
The stats exist. The chair has no legitimate reason not to have this information provided by any of the C&C first responders (Police, Fire or Ambulance) to the public at a neighborhood board meeting. The Hawaii Kai board can be bypassed if they are not willing to assist in compiling theses stats. If the public has a legitimate topic of discussion that is raised at a board meeting yet it is not on the agenda for that meeting, testimony does not need to be heard, however the topic should be placed on an upcoming agenda. If anyone thinks that boards rules are being abused or violated or that any laws according to Hawaii Revised Statues Chapter 92 a complaint can be lodged with the C&C Neighborhood Commission Office.
Hawaii Revised Statues Chapter 92 (http://"http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol02_ch0046-0115/hrs0092/hrs_0092-.htm")
Information on the "Sunshine Law" and open meeting for neighborhood boards (http://"http://files.hawaii.gov/oip/January%202013%20NB%20Sunshine%20Guide.pdf")
C&C of Honolulu Neighborhood Commission Office (http://"http://www1.honolulu.gov/nco/")
C&C of Honolulu NCO request for action and follow up (http://"http://www1.honolulu.gov/nco/2008nprequestforaction06.2012.pdf")
Complaint hotline - 768-3717
No real need to complain, at this point. NHB member Paige Alton asked the HFD reps how many of the rescues they had listed were up at KH trail, the response from the firefighter [probably lost a bet or something, didn't seem to happy to be there] Was "Uhhhh, I don't know". Ms. Alton seemed prepared to take it further, but the chair decided to move the discussion along.
I'm sure it has more to do with how the HFD breaks out their info, than some deficiency with the process or the young man forced to deliver the information.
HPD reps got read the riot act as they were just as poorly prepared. Although I have to admit, the chair seemed much more "concerned" about what was presented by HPD.
I can't imagine he would actually be biased.
I posted this info in my summary of the last meeting, and I shall be attending all future meetings and posting a summary as well. The next meeting is on the 25th if anyone is interested in attending.
:shaka:
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Someone plz call
from surf's links
things the board chairman should've read:
Conduct yourself in a manner that will gain the respect of your community and inspire fellow board members. DO NOT use your position to grandstand, nor take sides on issues
11. Do not monopolize or let others monopolize the meeting by adding frequent commentary to issues discussed. Not only is this self-serving, it lengthens the meeting.
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No real need to complain, at this point. NHB member Paige Alton asked the HFD reps how many of the rescues they had listed were up at KH trail, the response from the firefighter [probably lost a bet or something, didn't seem to happy to be there] Was "Uhhhh, I don't know". Ms. Alton seemed prepared to take it further, but the chair decided to move the discussion along.
I'm sure it has more to do with how the HFD breaks out their info, than some deficiency with the process or the young man forced to deliver the information.
HPD reps got read the riot act as they were just as poorly prepared. Although I have to admit, the chair seemed much more "concerned" about what was presented by HPD.
I can't imagine he would actually be biased.
I posted this info in my summary of the last meeting, and I shall be attending all future meetings and posting a summary as well. The next meeting is on the 25th if anyone is interested in attending.
:shaka:
PM sent
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Range was put in a cease fire today for helicopter rescue.
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http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140518_air1.html?id=259729531 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140518_air1.html?id=259729531)
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The way to do it is to ask request that HFD provide statistics for the amount of rescues, man hours, and cost for rescues that are associated with the KH trail. If you ask in advance, they will be able to provide the information at a future meeting. The individual delivering the statistics is required to submit any questions asked at Neighborhood Board Meetings back to HFD Administration. They will follow up as soon as the next month's meeting.
I know for a fact that DH trail is probably the worst when it comes to rescues, especially if AIR 1 is involved. The amount of rescues that happen over the course of a weekend due to stupidity/negligence is amazing.
Trails have been closed in the past due to safety issues, i.e. Sacred Falls. Might be a different situation, but still food for thought.
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The way to do it is to ask request that HFD provide statistics for the amount of rescues, man hours, and cost for rescues that are associated with the KH trail. If you ask in advance, they will be able to provide the information at a future meeting. The individual delivering the statistics is required to submit any questions asked at Neighborhood Board Meetings back to HFD Administration. They will follow up as soon as the next month's meeting.
I know for a fact that DH trail is probably the worst when it comes to rescues, especially if AIR 1 is involved. The amount of rescues that happen over the course of a weekend due to stupidity/negligence is amazing.
Trails have been closed in the past due to safety issues, i.e. Sacred Falls. Might be a different situation, but still food for thought.
i have been to at least the last 7 or 8 HKNB meetings
at every meeting, they are asked to break down the number of rescues on koko head
about every 2 or 3 times, they have a number, but it seems really low
i doubt they are that enthusiastic about reporting any rescue statistics, much less cost
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Badandy provides good advice. The HFD rep provides stats for the previous month's incidents. Those stats are general in nature and pulled from a response summary for the month. If more specific info (within reason), is needed, it would help tremendously to let them know in advance. In the time period I looked, 2 per month for KH was about the norm.
Like was posted, DH sees a lot of action.
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There was another helicopter rescue today Thursday 2PM... Cease fire about 20 min.
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Yes there was another rescue on Thur. Helo and basket time was minimal, so good job for the guys who had to make the hike up and secure the individual. As for the statistics for location, I will simply say that they do exist in some form or another. They may not be on a neat and simple spread sheet for reference by individual location, however we need to remember that, at the minimum, all 911 dispatched calls for Fire, Police or Ambulance have a location attached to them that is easily enough tracked. Now how much effort is put into compiling those stats depends on the urgency, importance or the "who" is actually requesting this information and for what reason. It does exist and tracking down similar or such information as this is not some kind of unreasonable request. Just depends on who makes this request and the importance that they place on it.