2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: HBS1 on May 28, 2011, 06:23:50 PM
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Can someone explain to me why we are no longer allowed to have night matches at KHSC!
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Can someone explain to me why we are no longer allowed to have night matches at KHSC!
:(
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It's a result of a recent policy change at KHSC. I'll let FunTimes clarify more when/if he feels it is appropriate to do so.
- Alex
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Clarification is being drafted; and details will be made available to the public in the relatively near future.
At the most basic level, the city was caught in a position where they were discriminating. This caused the the park supervisor to force a change to KKHSC. Unfortunately, instead of allowing equal access, they decided to revoke access. There were possibilities for the night shoots to have been appealed, but I don't believe those organizations wanted to do that. I would have. The denial and revocation of permits must be done in writing. Even to say that 'no one is there' is the evening organizations should be authorized to pay an attendant fee, as they do with other public facilities that require a person to be present. However, if we authorize the government to utilize these facilities in public, then the public should have equal access.
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Thanks Funtimes for the summary. I guess we will have to wait till the clarification you mention is drafted to get the details. I regret however that the clarification may not contain the reason or event which sparked what appears to be a "sudden" policy change. As you know I am a newbie to this forum, and I mean no disrespect for my ignorance or inference to those involved, but it seems something must have happened to spark what appears to be a "knee jerk" reaction by the city. I am of the understanding that these night matches have been going on for years without incident and with the current decrease of hours for access to the ranges coupled with the increase in firearms enthusists, we really can't afford to lose any aspect of our range. It does seem strange the organizations did not appeal this decision unless the situation was dire, where perhaps no hope existed or are they waiting for the official document as this decision is as of now been just verbal? In anycase, and to state the obvious, we will all lose from this in one way or another unless we can understand how something allowed for years is suddenly taken away. One can only ponder, "what is next to disappear ?" Thank you 2aHawaii for your forum an oportunity to learn and share ideas for our common interest.
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Thanks Funtimes for the summary. I guess we will have to wait till the clarification you mention is drafted to get the details. I regret however that the clarification may not contain the reason or event which sparked what appears to be a "sudden" policy change. As you know I am a newbie to this forum, and I mean no disrespect for my ignorance or inference to those involved, but it seems something must have happened to spark what appears to be a "knee jerk" reaction by the city. I am of the understanding that these night matches have been going on for years without incident and with the current decrease of hours for access to the ranges coupled with the increase in firearms enthusists, we really can't afford to lose any aspect of our range. It does seem strange the organizations did not appeal this decision unless the situation was dire, where perhaps no hope existed or are they waiting for the official document as this decision is as of now been just verbal? In anycase, and to state the obvious, we will all lose from this in one way or another unless we can understand how something allowed for years is suddenly taken away. One can only ponder, "what is next to disappear ?" Thank you 2aHawaii for your forum an oportunity to learn and share ideas for our common interest.
Once everything comes out -- I don't doubt you will understand what caused this. There is a very detailed explanation in the works (I would say -- two weeks maybe?)
Everything that is said, is what I wish to disclose; some people may know more than others, but I ask that they keep that to themselves for just a little while longer.
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Thanks Funtimes for the summary. I guess we will have to wait till the clarification you mention is drafted to get the details. I regret however that the clarification may not contain the reason or event which sparked what appears to be a "sudden" policy change. As you know I am a newbie to this forum, and I mean no disrespect for my ignorance or inference to those involved, but it seems something must have happened to spark what appears to be a "knee jerk" reaction by the city. I am of the understanding that these night matches have been going on for years without incident and with the current decrease of hours for access to the ranges coupled with the increase in firearms enthusists, we really can't afford to lose any aspect of our range. It does seem strange the organizations did not appeal this decision unless the situation was dire, where perhaps no hope existed or are they waiting for the official document as this decision is as of now been just verbal? In anycase, and to state the obvious, we will all lose from this in one way or another unless we can understand how something allowed for years is suddenly taken away. One can only ponder, "what is next to disappear ?" Thank you 2aHawaii for your forum an oportunity to learn and share ideas for our common interest.
Once everything comes out -- I don't doubt you will understand what caused this. There is a very detailed explanation in the works (I would say -- two weeks maybe?)
Everything that is said, is what I wish to disclose; some people may know more than others, but I ask that they keep that to themselves for just a little while longer.
>:(
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I am not a smart guy, but it sounds like some one or a group of folks identified a major issue WRT to open access to KHSC and drove the park supervisor to react. I have to agree with HBS1 and we may loose more shooting opportunities in the future. However, at least we have the opportunity to discuss this in an open forum. I appreciate the summary as well Funtimes. Thanks and keep fighting the good fight for all of us.
Yeah this was a mishap, and there are always casualties in a fight. Whenever you fight for things that belong to the public and try and take them back from government it is a rough battle.
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I am not a smart guy, but it sounds like some one or a group of folks identified a major issue WRT to open access to KHSC and drove the park supervisor to react. I have to agree with HBS1 and we may loose more shooting opportunities in the future. However, at least we have the opportunity to discuss this in an open forum. I appreciate the summary as well Funtimes. Thanks and keep fighting the good fight for all of us.
Yeah this was a mishap, and there are always casualties in a fight. Whenever you fight for things that belong to the public and try and take them back from government it is a rough battle.
:'(
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was it because of a particular gun shop owner on the Windward side?
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No -- It was me and the Kokohead range master.
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Way to go Hoale Boy! it looks like there is no place now n this aina to have fun! if they we no can shoot will i guess we gots to find another place to shot. why you had to star all this stuff for. we like it the way it was. i've shooting here since i was young. my father and his friends when teach me how. now i can not. what i goin tell my little keiki whe he like shoot.
man, mrs baker. why you gota start all dis commotion. here in da islands we just relax. we no like the mainland style. time and time again foreigners come and mess it all up.
eh personally my man dan in kaneohe is awesome he should be running this thing. he get more brains and nuts than you. and he is local! brah his shop provides for us locals. and he give us some good training.
I no like this place turn into mainland brah! dis is hawaii not mainland!
i would say aloha, but clearly i don't think this hoale guy understand what "aloha" is! O0
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America. Learn it. Live it. Love it. I would attempt to explain to you, but I am nearly certain you would have almost no ability to sufficiently comprehend any text that you read on your screen. For those that do possess that ability, however, I will inform anyone that while you can blame me (I don't really mind, people always need someone to blame) that one should look towards the discriminant policies, procedures and practices of the employees and agents of the City and County of Honolulu.
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:wtf:
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DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS :crazy:
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It's spelled haole
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Way to go Hoale Boy! it looks like there is no place now n this aina to have fun! if they we no can shoot will i guess we gots to find another place to shot. why you had to star all this stuff for. we like it the way it was. i've shooting here since i was young. my father and his friends when teach me how. now i can not. what i goin tell my little keiki whe he like shoot.
man, mrs baker. why you gota start all dis commotion. here in da islands we just relax. we no like the mainland style. time and time again foreigners come and mess it all up.
eh personally my man dan in kaneohe is awesome he should be running this thing. he get more brains and nuts than you. and he is local! brah his shop provides for us locals. and he give us some good training.
I no like this place turn into mainland brah! dis is hawaii not mainland!
i would say aloha, but clearly i don't think this hoale guy understand what "aloha" is! O0
lol. I was wondering when one of these are going to turn up again. *edit* :rofl:
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DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS :crazy:
this
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Very selfish.
- Removed offending comment. -2aH
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I hope we can all look past the ignorant name calling :o and look towards changes in policy. Maybe ones that would grant equal access to night use at the range and opening it up for more groups. This is Hawaii and lots of us grew up where it is tradition to not make waves. But where would that get us? More restrictions. Less freedom. I hope this policy can be corrected in the future.
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This is Hawaii and lots of us grew up where it is tradition to not make waves. But where would that get us? More restrictions. Less freedom. I hope this policy can be corrected in the future.
Yeah sadly, I don't believe the organization forced the city give them written notice of why their permit was canceled (which is required). I also don't think they have even contacted the director to even question the situation. I do hope this can be restored; however, for that to happen, it will take people calling, visiting, and demanding it -- which will probably never happen (the whole making waves thing). I felt like crap about the whole thing, and was upset no one stood up.
*edit* added 1-2 things.
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Don't worry about it Funtimes. Majority of the shooting community realize that to affect change, feet have to get stepped on in order to do so. Though inconvenient, the end product is normally mutual ground that is agreed to by both parties. No one side ever walks away from a negotiating table happy, but both sides are able to either retain or gain something of value from all of it. Yes it's a pain, but at the same time (some) people will have to realize that in order to make things "right", you have to push things to do so. So keep on going bud, the silent majority applaud and support you through these endeavors.
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(http://arizona.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf80c53ef0120a532110b970c-500wi)
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I would like to add that Funtimes was trying to increase the availability of the range for everyone and that the CYA, knee jerk response from the CIty was the problem. NOT Funtimes!!
I would furhter like to add that this action by the City was very likely calculated to create disention and infighting among "us" the pro-gun, pro-rights groups. Do not let this happen! Do not blame the guy who was fighting for everyone and instead blame the CIty and the politicians that made this decision. What we don't need is one "gun group" chastising and blaming another "gun group." This can only result in the fracture of the coalitions and relationships we already have to come apart when we need the unity and cohesiveness the most. DO NOT let the politicians use this as a means to reduce our effectiveness and squelsh our collective voices. We need to see the root cause of this and recognize the very possible manipulation of "us" by the powers that be for the purposes of stalling our movement.
We may not agree on everything, but we all seem to agree that things need to change. We will not be able to effect that change if we let "them" divide us, again.
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I would like to add that Funtimes was trying to increase the availability of the range for everyone and that the CYA, knee jerk response from the CIty was the problem. NOT Funtimes!!
I would furhter like to add that this action by the City was very likely calculated to create disention and infighting among "us" the pro-gun, pro-rights groups. Do not let this happen! Do not blame the guy who was fighting for everyone and instead blame the CIty and the politicians that made this decision. What we don't need is one "gun group" chastising and blaming another "gun group." This can only result in the fracture of the coalitions and relationships we already have to come apart when we need the unity and cohesiveness the most. DO NOT let the politicians use this as a means to reduce our effectiveness and squelsh our collective voices. We need to see the root cause of this and recognize the very possible manipulation of "us" by the powers that be for the purposes of stalling our movement.
We may not agree on everything, but we all seem to agree that things need to change. We will not be able to effect that change if we let "them" divide us, again.
QFE *edit* I stand by promoting the rights to all shooters in the state.
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It seems this simple question of why the City shut down the night access is not so simple. If I can read between the lines of the various posts it looks like the night time access was a victim of "friendly fire". If that is the case, then there will be casualties to the fight that Funtimes mentions and people will have their opinions of what has now come to pass like the old saying, "hindsight is twenty-twenty". Regardless of all that is said, the intent of this question was to learn and understand the situation so that if it is something we can do or not do, we can chose our course of action with knowledge and understanding to hopefully achieve our objective. I think HiCarry hit the nail on the head in that we need to work together if we are to be effective no matter what the goal. And until we can do this we may fall folly to "win some and lose some" and at the end of the day we either made some progress or learned something from our setback. Again, I appologize for my ignorance to the entire situation and will remain patient for the detailed explanation mentioned by Funtimes. As for those who have nothing nice to say, it is a forum and you have your right to voice your opinion, much like those who have supportive advice which I believe more than proves the value of this forum to all of us. My sincerest ALOHA to 2ahawaii for your hardwork to provide us this opportunity to exercise and share our rights and freedoms.
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It seems this simple question of why the City shut down the night access is not so simple. If I can read between the lines of the various posts it looks like the night time access was a victim of "friendly fire". If that is the case, then there will be casualties to the fight that Funtimes mentions and people will have their opinions of what has now come to pass like the old saying, "hindsight is twenty-twenty". Regardless of all that is said, the intent of this question was to learn and understand the situation so that if it is something we can do or not do, we can chose our course of action with knowledge and understanding to hopefully achieve our objective. I think HiCarry hit the nail on the head in that we need to work together if we are to be effective no matter what the goal. And until we can do this we may fall folly to "win some and lose some" and at the end of the day we either made some progress or learned something from our setback. Again, I appologize for my ignorance to the entire situation and will remain patient for the detailed explanation mentioned by Funtimes. As for those who have nothing nice to say, it is a forum and you have your right to voice your opinion, much like those who have supportive advice which I believe more than proves the value of this forum to all of us. My sincerest ALOHA to 2ahawaii for your hardwork to provide us this opportunity to exercise and share our rights and freedoms.
+1
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I've been following this thread with interest, however I too am waiting for the written clarification in hopes of getting more information before I comment. Just a quick question though, was the "organization" made aware of all the details before this was taken to the Parks/Range Director? If so, were they okay with it or did they have reservations/warnings about what may ensue?
As far as the City being discriminatory, I tend to disagree. I am a City employee, albeit not at KHSC, and I see examples of individuals, based on their demonstrated abilities and experience, be allowed to do things while others are not. Discriminatory, no, discretionary, yes.
CYA? Not all the City and County's fault given the multitude of incredibly stupid lawsuits directed against them by individuals injured while showing total lack of judgement.
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I can't directly speak for them to say MPPL was 'aware', but their organizer was present when some of these issues went down. If I was a betting man, I would say that more details will follow in the next two-weeks.
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Fair enough, thanks for the reply regarding MPPL's knowledge of what was going to happen.
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When a certain group is not allowed to participate in activities that another is allowed to, and the prohibitted group is not allowed to demonstrate the required ability or skill set required to participate in said activity, that is discrimination, not discretion.
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I acknowledge and agree for the most part with your statement regardng discrimination vs.discretion. I believe we're on the same page in that regard, if not then perhaps my statement regarding those who demonstrate a required skill set and experience history being allowed greater latitude was not clear. If that is the case, then I apoligize, I did not mean to offend anyone.
As far as not being given the opportunity to demonstrate those skills, or not being given the opportunity to establish a history, I also agree is wrong. I just didn't want to assume that is what had happened and was waiting for the clarification that was mentioned.
There are instances however, when demonstrating competence and experience is best evaluated over a period of time. These issues I felt would come out in the clarification, and as such, I was waiting until then to comment. As I mentioned, if a certain party was denied the opportunity the establish the same experience that other groups have established, then I agree whole heartedly what happened was unfair.
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mnpfamily - No offense taken, at least not by me. I think we're on the same page, so it all good. By the way, welcome.
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Thanks for the welcome. Its a tough situation we got here, hope everything works out for all involved in the end.
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The City and County of Honolulu Parks and Recreation department held a meeting today with their corporate counsel, and many others, to discuss the Pre-litigation demand letter sent by the Hawaii Defense Foundation in response to the looming issues at the Kokohead Shooting Complex. In an effort to both save time and lots of tax-payers money the Director made a great effort in meeting with me this evening to discuss the problems. I left feeling good, and I believe he did as well. So -- Not to get everyone's hopes up, but night shoots should be restored by the close of business this week. Lots of additional changes (probably all for the good) to also follow for Kokohead Shooting Complex.
More information will follow.
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"Like"
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That's some potentially good news. I'm anxiously awaiting official word.
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I hope that all of those who were so upset by the loss of the night shoots now realize that it was not Funtimes trying to make trouble. But rather his sincere effort to improve things for all shooters. Not only will we likely get the night shoots back, but more clubs will be able to take advantage of this opportunity under a much more transparent and fair process. And, there is also the possibility that this could lead to more good things.
I warned about letting this become a wedge issue among local "gun groups" and am still concerned that there will be some animosity out there. Those folks need to get over it. We are fortunate to have someone of Funtimes caliber (pun intended...) and dedication fighting the good fight for all of us. He doesn't need the impediments of the negative comments and attitudes. Instead, he needs our support and assistance. After many years of being involved in local "gun" politics, it still amazes me how difficult it is to get all of "us" working together and how easy it is for the politicians and others to cause strife and disention among "us." You'd think we'd learn by now.....
Personally, I'd like to thank Funtimes for all his (and his "crew's") hard work. I know he's trying to improve things here for everyone and I appreciate his dedication and applaud his recent success!
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The City and County of Honolulu Parks and Recreation department held a meeting today with their corporate counsel, and many others, to discuss the Pre-litigation demand letter sent by the Hawaii Defense Foundation in response to the looming issues at the Kokohead Shooting Complex. In an effort to both save time and lots of tax-payers money the Director made a great effort in meeting with me this evening to discuss the problems. I left feeling good, and I believe he did as well. So -- Not to get everyone's hopes up, but night shoots should be restored by the close of business this week. Lots of additional changes (probably all for the good) to also follow for Kokohead Shooting Complex.
More information will follow.
Do you think it will open up the hours of operation? I'm so new to shooting on the island that I didn't realize the range isn't even open on Monday's & Tuesdays. ;-(
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They are supposed to get another part time attendant at the facility, that should open the range by a few hours.
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From what I heard I don't agree that the suit should have been against the park director.
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I skipped over this thread because I thought it didn't pertain to me as I do not participate in night shoots. I realize now, that I should show support for any venue whether it be night shooting, skeet, trap, or cowboy action. I commend Chris on his intestinal fortitude to stand up for my right, whether I chose to participate in them or not. I also commend him on his maturity on how he handled the "haole" bashing comment. HiCarry is right. We need to stick together.
Mahalo,
Jaydawg
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Just wanted to chime back in if everything is again copacetic at KHSC. Was the detailed explanation posted already, or are we to draw it out from the numerous postings? or it is a moot point as the pursuit of other rights, concealed carry in particular, trumps the other issues and again the Government is to blame by taking away our rights? This tread has gotten somewhat confusing as the posts seem to assume everyone knows what is going on and the people involved, but as far as I know, there still are no night matches and there are bits of information as to what had transpired to ban the use of the range at night. I again appologize for my ignorance or inability to either read between the lines or be a part of the group who are "in the know". In my humble opinion, we talk a lot about the ideals of being unified in our thought, but as far as I can tell there exists a community of people who perhaps share a unified thought and then there exists the rest of us, who for whatever reason at times have no idea what you guys are talking about or reffering to. Maybe it is our fault for either not being involved or understanding the issues or rights that are being reffered to, thus there are no "simple answers". I again mean no disrespect for my commentary, however as far as I can tell from this tread, the end of the nighttime range use was due inpart to the pursuit of concealed carry in Hawaii and somehow, it was determined (by whom I don't know) that the KHSC was conducting discriminatory practices to the public and a lawsuit was drafted and threatened to the head range master at KHSC, but now, Funtimes met with the guy and all is supposed to be back to business with no discriminatory practices, so all is good? The end result is KHSC will correct its policy and the night matches will resume? If this is accurate, then I guess this is the end of this tread. Or again if it is something else that will be revealed when those involved feel it is appropriate, then I guess it is again time to exercise patience and understanding for those who are fighting for our rights?.
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Sorry these things don't really move as fast I would like... its like a chess game, but weeks in between moves. I move -- they wait, and respond.... they move, we wait and respond.... etc. This is where we are at right now. I still can't disclose much as we have not settled at this point.
Letter From Director of Parks in Response to Demand (http://www.scribd.com/doc/58962856/Letter-From-Director-of-Parks-in-Response-to-Demand#)
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Sorry these things don't really move as fast I would like... its like a chess game, but weeks in between moves. I move -- they wait, and respond.... they move, we wait and respond.... etc. This is where we are at right now. I still can't disclose much as we have not settled at this point.
Letter From Director of Parks in Response to Demand (http://www.scribd.com/doc/58962856/Letter-From-Director-of-Parks-in-Response-to-Demand#)
If you take weeks to make chess moves, I'm never playing chess with you.
Hurry up and move already!!! :rofl:
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Spoke with the Director today, said this should be fixed by the 15th of this month. We will see!
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Spoke with the Director today, said this should be fixed by the 15th of this month. We will see!
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So whats going on with the night match? Weren't u the one responsible for having that privilege stripped fromi mppl? It looks like ur approach was taylored for ur own benefit for ur use of the bay.
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Spoke with the Director today, said this should be fixed by the 15th of this month. We will see!
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So whats going on with the night match? Weren't u the one responsible for having that privilege stripped fromi mppl? It looks like ur approach was taylored for ur own benefit for ur use of the bay.
A privilage to only one group is discrination against the rest.
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Spoke with the Director today, said this should be fixed by the 15th of this month. We will see!
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So whats going on with the night match? Weren't u the one responsible for having that privilege stripped fromi mppl? It looks like ur approach was taylored for ur own benefit for ur use of the bay.
A privilage to only one group is discrination against the rest.
+1. Duh.
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C'mom guys! We may have lost the night match but at least Chris and the fellas at LIFE/HRA are moving the community in a positive direction for all of us. Let's stay positive and hopefully Chris Baker will be able to set things on an even keel in the future. It will get better.
Chris, are sponsoring another open shoot. I missed the last one your organization sponsored due to work. We are willing to donate some funds to your cause.
Good luck!
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C'mom guys! We may have lost the night match but at least Chris and the fellas at LIFE/HRA are moving the community in a positive direction for all of us. Let's stay positive and hopefully Chris Baker will be able to set things on an even keel in the future. It will get better.
Chris, are sponsoring another open shoot. I missed the last one your organization sponsored due to work. We are willing to donate some funds to your cause.
Good luck!
They should be coming back soon. The Director sent us a letter about two weeks ago saying they are almost finished finalizing their policy for night-shoots and use of park after hours.
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That's good news. So you should hear back any day now... :P
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Hey funtimes, when's the next shooting event?
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Spoke with the Director today, said this should be fixed by the 15th of this month. We will see!
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So whats going on with the night match? Weren't u the one responsible for having that privilege stripped fromi mppl? It looks like ur approach was taylored for ur own benefit for ur use of the bay.
A privilage to only one group is discrination against the rest.
+1. Duh.
+2. Duh. duh.
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Hey funtimes, when's the next shooting event?
Saturday after Thanksgiving.