2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dirtylickins on May 07, 2016, 08:41:55 AM
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So here is a report on our environment. What you think? I think it was a fair assessment and from both sides with some Credible speakers of our firearms community. Finally some fair reporting. I even agree with the negatives about our passion that was stated.
Watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqqju93YBTA
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Hawaii Guns
http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=22837
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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So here is a report on our environment. What you think? I think it was a fair assessment and from both sides with some Credible speakers of our firearms community. Finally some fair reporting. I even agree with the negatives about our passion that was stated.
Watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqqju93YBTA
focus!
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Well Mr. Robinson you are wrong. I had an intruder in my house with me and my family in it. I grabbed the gun out of its locked storage, loaded it, and successfully defended my child while we waited on y'all to get there. So take your Northeast accent ass away from me and keep your nose out of my business.
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Well Mr. Rogers you are wrong. I had an intruder in my house with me and my family in it. I grabbed the gun out of its locked storage, loaded it, and successfully defended my child while we waited on y'all to get there. So take your Northeast accent ass away from me and keep your nose out of my business.
You should tell the HRA your story and that you'd be willing to be interviewed . We need more people to grab media attention. Wheter it's using a gun for self defense, or being attacked on the street and not having a gun to defend yourself.
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You should tell the HRA your story and that you'd be willing to be interviewed . We need more people to grab media attention. Wheter it's using a gun for self defense, or being attacked on the street and not having a gun to defend yourself.
I have met Harvey and provided my story. I am introducing a bill next session if Mr.Sloan is still there next session.
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Well Mr. Robinson you are wrong. I had an intruder in my house with me and my family in it. I grabbed the gun out of its locked storage, loaded it, and successfully defended my child while we waited on y'all to get there. So take your Northeast accent ass away from me and keep your nose out of my business.
I agree he's wrong, I had 2 motorcycles stolen right out of my closed garage and I was home on one of the occasions.
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So how much big dogs should I get ?? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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"Get a big dog"
...?
People should realize this is an example of how the opinions of those in authoritive positions end up becoming "fact" by swaying Lawmakers decisions, who are just as guilty of converting their opinions to "facts" as well.
Note that these opinions have reduced people's choices in personal defense in Hawaii to Pepper Spray and whatever you were born with. You can't even keep a "big dog" with you everywhere unless it's a service animal and those aren't trained for personal defense anyway.
And what about ailurophile's (cat people)? Is HPD going to let them keep a "big cat"? Equality for everyone, right? Speciesism is WRONG, etc., etc.!
Finally, is the "big dog" at risk of execution if it protects me or my property? Is HPD going to take the responsibility for telling the public to get a "big dog" after said dog decides to use less lethal force?
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All great points gentleman. Also some good facts from experience as well.
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One thing that was misrepresented by Maj Robinson was what disqualifies gun ownership. Did he forget the Kaiser and Straub patients debacle last year. For a while there, one was disqualified based on their health care plan. Short memory I guess. I have always supported our police department. But after what I experienced last year being a Kaiser member and the recent misbehaving by law enforcement officers including their leadership, I no longer do.
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If my pit bull gets loose and mauls someone, I get sued.
My firearms will never get loose. They are under my complete control.
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When people get more "big dogs" there will be registration and so forth. Permit to acquire dogs. Background check.Waiting periods. Fingerprint fee. National big dog registry. There will be another govt. agency to deal with "big dogs" Pets, Animal and Big Dogs. PABD.
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"Get a big dog"
...
Finally, is the "big dog" at risk of execution if it protects me or my property? Is HPD going to take the responsibility for telling the public to get a "big dog" after said dog decides to use less lethal force?
There have been dozens of examples in the past couple of years of law enforcement shooting and killing dogs upon or prior to entering a property in response to a call or warrant, even when those dogs are not attacking or posing an immediate threat. I guess the cop forgot to mention that. No reason to believe Hawaii cops would respond any differently. An inconvenient truth. I guess the "advice" then would be "Get another dog, and don't call the cops. Oh, and if anything "bad" happens because we go to the "wrong address" (again), well, shit happens".
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Anyone shopping for homeowner's insurance?
One of the questions they ask if you have pets such as a dog that has bitten anyone or ran away.
They don't ask about guns but rather about dogs that bite.
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It was far from a fair and balanced.
The antigun side cited studies that have been discredited, brought up the Uyesugi shooting as an example of a "legal gun owner" going nuts and shooting people but didn't bring up any number of other shootings by folks who should not have been able to get guns and used unregistered firearms.
I have a list of other erroneous info at home...but no, it was not balanced. It was an anti-gun piece that tried to appear balanced...
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I wish they covered more of the sporting/hunting uses and had some footage of a competition, hunting group, and women and children shooting.
The NRA did counter the stats shown from the "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home" report (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20011211/22-times-less-safebranti-gun-lobbys-f). Stats only included actual shootings and not those where firearms were displayed or no one was injured.
Questions I wish were covered:
Do citizens having guns deter crime, inside and outside the home?
Why are police allowed to carry and ordinary citizens, who have a greater need for one, cannot?
Can the police give us a 100% guarantee that they can protect us?
Why can we use a gun to protect ourselves in the home, but not outside in public? What's the difference?
I agree with lack of training in the gun community. Most gun owners buy a gun and think they can shoot when they can't. The vast majority of training that have a gun for safety have minimal or no training besides shooting at paper targets without shooting themselves. And even those probably haven't shot their guns in years or decades. To use a gun safely in a self-defense scenario they should be proficient with the operation, go through scenarios, low light training, hand to hand defense, know they'll be willing to take a life to save a life, etc.
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It was far from a fair and balanced.
I was expecting far worse. I thought it was pretty good considering the pro gun side had more airtime and more people interviewed. I agree the stats were off, or as the host noted non-existant in some cases. He should've balanced the states out (wrong or right) with some progun stats.
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The video was in the overall a negative piece to affect public perception.
The cut scenes where they were showing Russ and Clifford practicing on the range had this dark and brownish screen overlay making the whole scene look ominous and dark.
They selectively used video segments from Harvey, Russ and Clifford's interviews where they gave the standard warning about gun use. I wonder what portion of their interviews were left in the editing floor.
The video made it seem that Harvey, Russ and Clifford all agreed with Major Robinson. What about the portions where they disagreed? I bet those portions were not included in the video segment.
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so by mr. Robinson's logic, if we have the same training and testing as HPD, we can have CCW.
sounds good to me.
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so by mr. Robinson's logic, if we have the same training and testing as HPD, we can have CCW.
sounds good to me.
I think it is safe to say there are quite a few here that have far more training and range time and practice under different scenarios than 99% if not all of HPD.
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I think it is safe to say there are quite a few here that have far more training and range time and practice under different scenarios than 99% if not all of HPD.
I disagree.
A full time job carrying 8-12 hours a day and dealing with all kinds of crumbs is an experience that is difficult to replicate.
More range time shooting pew pew pew at targets...most likely.
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Ok. Instead of quite a few, I should have said a few. The range time I am talking about is not shooting targets at KHSC. I am talking about force on force training and training at the various firearms facilities on the mainland, like Front Sight, Sig Sauer, Suarez etc. Shooting targets is not training for a self defense situation using a firearm. I have never seen HPD's firearms training, but my best friend in high school was a HPD officer and another good friend was one too. Just going from what they told me, I don't think the level of training HPD receives can compare to the top firearm training academies on the mainland. On one visit to Front Sight I saw about 20 officers from the Nevada Sheriff's DEPT training there, which led me to believe that they must offer training beyond what the average police academy can provide. This is why I believe that those who have taken the advanced courses offered at these academies and regularly practice what they were taught, are better trained than your average HPD officer to handle and use a firearm.
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HPD has a good training program, probably better than most other LE programs. They have a broad focus on firearms, tactics, hand to hand, spray, stress management, etc. Their firearms proficiency isn't the best since the officers usually aren't gun people, but still better than the average guy with a gun. Same thing with the military. Shooting schools are great however the vast majority of people work on firearms proficiency instead of tactics, since the bulk of shooters have trouble just getting the basic fundamentals down and just put in the minimum time.
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Ok. Instead of quite a few, I should have said a few. The range time I am talking about is not shooting targets at KHSC. I am talking about force on force training and training at the various firearms facilities on the mainland, like Front Sight, Sig Sauer, Suarez etc. Shooting targets is not training for a self defense situation using a firearm. I have never seen HPD's firearms training, but my best friend in high school was a HPD officer and another good friend was one too. Just going from what they told me, I don't think the level of training HPD receives can compare to the top firearm training academies on the mainland. On one visit to Front Sight I saw about 20 officers from the Nevada Sheriff's DEPT training there, which led me to believe that they must offer training beyond what the average police academy can provide. This is why I believe that those who have taken the advanced courses offered at these academies and regularly practice what they were taught, are better trained than your average HPD officer to handle and use a firearm.
that's great training
But imagine applying what you learned from that training to a job 5-7 days a week with no "reset" button. Decisions. We all witness the media and how they portray LEs as trigger happy, gun-toting figures who shoot innocents. It's more than just self defense. It's learning when not to shoot, when to shoot. People skills are also important. It may not seem like it but LE deals with the entire spectrum of the human race. Try mixing that in but still maintaining a sense of authority to control situations. Thankless and low paying job when you look at it holistically.
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..... It's learning when not to shoot, when to shoot.
I agree with that statement 100%. The only time I would shoot would be to protect myself or a loved one. I would not shoot to protect the life of a stranger, because no matter what, your life is going to change for the worse once that trigger is pulled.
Thankless and low paying job when you look at it holistically.
Yes, but the retirement benefits make it all worth it compared to working the private sector. You can retire relatively young, be collecting your retirement and get another job. Same reason people join the military and stay in for 20 years. HPD pay is actually pretty good for someone with only a high school diploma and no specialized skills.
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I wish they covered more of the sporting/hunting uses and had some footage of a competition, hunting group, and women and children shooting.
The NRA did counter the stats shown from the "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home" report (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20011211/22-times-less-safebranti-gun-lobbys-f). Stats only included actual shootings and not those where firearms were displayed or no one was injured.
Why didn't they mention the study that was a result of President Obama's EO? You know, the one where the CDC commissioned The National Research Council and the Institute of Medicine. It found that Defensive Gun Uses were "...at least as common as criminal misuse...", that armed citizens that resist using their gun suffer fewer and less severe injuries than those that don't resist or use other self defense tools, that Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths, and both are declining, that Gun buyback/turn-in programs are “ineffective” in reducing crime, that stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime, and that The vast majority of gun-related deaths are not homicides, but suicides.
Questions I wish were covered:
Do citizens having guns deter crime, inside and outside the home?
There are numerous studies that address this issue. Most suggest that armed citizens decrease crime. Some do the opposite. Guess which ones are most frequently cited?
Why are police allowed to carry and ordinary citizens, who have a greater need for one, cannot?
It's not about the need to protect yourself or your family, it is about control.
Can the police give us a 100% guarantee that they can protect us?
Of course not. 98% of the time police do not arrive in time to prevent a violent crime. Furthermore, the Supreme Court, along with several state courts, have consistently held the police have no legal duty to protect you. See Castlerock v. Gonzales, Warren v. District of Columbia, Davidson v. City of Westminster, or Riss v. New York. For even more perspective on this, read the account of the New York subway incident where police hid in the motorman's car while they watched citizens being stabbed, and an unarmed citizen subdue the bad guy...
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/22/man-gets-stabbed-on-subway-guess-how-hel
Why can we use a gun to protect ourselves in the home, but not outside in public? What's the difference?
Control...
I agree with lack of training in the gun community. Most gun owners buy a gun and think they can shoot when they can't. The vast majority of training that have a gun for safety have minimal or no training besides shooting at paper targets without shooting themselves. And even those probably haven't shot their guns in years or decades. To use a gun safely in a self-defense scenario they should be proficient with the operation, go through scenarios, low light training, hand to hand defense, know they'll be willing to take a life to save a life, etc.
Yes, I think all gun owners should get training, the more the better. The problem in "agreeing" that there needs to be some mandated training is twofold. First, there is the Constitutional issue. What other core, fundamental Constitutional right requires mandated training before you can exercise that right? Free Speech, voting, choice of religion...?
Second, as we can so clearly see by Hawaii's onerous rules, if the government is allowed to make the training requirements they are likely to be expensive, onerous, and sometimes just plain stupid (compare hunter's ed with the class requirements for 4 hours of classroom training and 2 hours of live firing).
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Just ran across this...not HPD but it is another bastion of liberalism and gun-phobia.
http://www.ksbw.com/news/hundreds-of-guns-lost-or-stolen-from-sf-bay-area-police-since-2010/39342644
I wonder what the ratio of police stolen guns versus citizen's stolen guns are there? For that matter, I wonder what it is here?