GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates (Read 14877 times)

RSN172

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 06:08:32 PM »
so by mr. Robinson's logic, if we have the same training and testing as HPD, we can have CCW.
sounds good to me.
I think it is safe to say there are quite a few here that have far more training and range time and practice under different scenarios than 99% if not all of HPD.
Happily living in Puna

ren

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 07:08:33 PM »
I think it is safe to say there are quite a few here that have far more training and range time and practice under different scenarios than 99% if not all of HPD.
I disagree.
A full time job carrying 8-12 hours a day and dealing with all kinds of crumbs is an experience that is difficult to replicate.
More range time shooting pew pew pew at targets...most likely.
Deeds Not Words

RSN172

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 08:26:22 PM »
Ok.  Instead of quite a few, I should have said a few.  The range time I am talking about is not shooting targets at KHSC.  I am talking about force on force training and training at the various firearms facilities on the mainland, like Front Sight, Sig Sauer, Suarez etc.  Shooting targets is not training for a self defense situation using a firearm.  I have never seen HPD's firearms training, but my best friend in high school was a HPD officer and another good friend was one too.  Just going from what they told me, I don't think the level of training HPD receives can compare to the top firearm training academies on the mainland.  On one visit to Front Sight I saw about 20 officers from the Nevada Sheriff's DEPT training there, which led me to believe that they must offer training beyond what the average police academy can provide.  This is why I believe that those who have taken the advanced courses offered at these academies and regularly practice what they were taught, are better trained than your average HPD officer to handle and use a firearm.
Happily living in Puna

zippz

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 09:00:57 PM »
HPD has a good training program, probably better than most other LE programs.  They have a broad focus on firearms, tactics, hand to hand, spray, stress management, etc.  Their firearms proficiency isn't the best since the officers usually aren't gun people, but still better than the average guy with a gun.  Same thing with the military.  Shooting schools  are great however the vast majority of people work on firearms proficiency instead of tactics, since the bulk of  shooters have trouble just getting the basic fundamentals down and just put in the minimum time.

ren

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2016, 09:09:15 PM »
Ok.  Instead of quite a few, I should have said a few.  The range time I am talking about is not shooting targets at KHSC.  I am talking about force on force training and training at the various firearms facilities on the mainland, like Front Sight, Sig Sauer, Suarez etc.  Shooting targets is not training for a self defense situation using a firearm.  I have never seen HPD's firearms training, but my best friend in high school was a HPD officer and another good friend was one too.  Just going from what they told me, I don't think the level of training HPD receives can compare to the top firearm training academies on the mainland.  On one visit to Front Sight I saw about 20 officers from the Nevada Sheriff's DEPT training there, which led me to believe that they must offer training beyond what the average police academy can provide.  This is why I believe that those who have taken the advanced courses offered at these academies and regularly practice what they were taught, are better trained than your average HPD officer to handle and use a firearm.

that's great training
But imagine applying what you learned from that training to a job 5-7 days a week with no "reset" button. Decisions. We all witness the media and how they portray LEs as trigger happy, gun-toting figures who shoot innocents. It's more than just self defense. It's learning when not to shoot, when to shoot. People skills are also important. It may not seem like it but LE deals with the entire spectrum of the human race. Try mixing that in but still maintaining a sense of authority to control situations. Thankless and low paying job when you look at it holistically.
Deeds Not Words

RSN172

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2016, 08:34:00 AM »
..... It's learning when not to shoot, when to shoot.

I agree with that statement 100%.  The only time I would shoot would be to protect myself or a loved one.  I would not shoot to protect the life of a stranger, because no matter what, your life is going to change for the worse once that trigger is pulled.

Thankless and low paying job when you look at it holistically.

Yes, but the retirement benefits make it all worth it compared to working the private sector.  You can retire relatively young, be collecting your retirement and get another job.  Same reason people join the military and stay in for 20 years.  HPD pay is actually pretty good for someone with only a high school diploma and no specialized skills.
Happily living in Puna

HiCarry

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2016, 11:06:18 AM »
I wish they covered more of the sporting/hunting uses and had some footage of a competition, hunting group, and women and children shooting.

The NRA did counter the stats shown from the "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home" report (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20011211/22-times-less-safebranti-gun-lobbys-f).  Stats only included actual shootings and not those where firearms were displayed or no one was injured.

Why didn't they mention the study that was a result of President Obama's EO? You know, the one where the CDC commissioned The National Research Council and the Institute of Medicine. It found that Defensive Gun Uses were "...at least as common as criminal misuse...", that armed citizens that resist using their gun suffer fewer and less severe injuries than those that don't resist or use other self defense tools, that Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths, and both are declining, that Gun buyback/turn-in programs are “ineffective” in reducing crime, that stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime, and that The vast majority of gun-related deaths are not homicides, but suicides.

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Questions I wish were covered:
Do citizens having guns deter crime, inside and outside the home?
There are numerous studies that address this issue. Most suggest that armed citizens decrease crime. Some do the opposite. Guess which ones are most frequently cited?

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Why are police allowed to carry and ordinary citizens, who have a greater need for one, cannot?
It's not about the need to protect yourself or your family, it is about control.

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Can the police give us a 100% guarantee that they can protect us?
Of course not. 98% of the time police do not arrive in time to prevent a violent crime. Furthermore, the Supreme Court, along with several state courts, have consistently held the police have no legal  duty to protect you. See Castlerock v. Gonzales, Warren v. District of Columbia, Davidson v. City of Westminster, or Riss v. New York. For even more perspective on this, read the account of the New York subway incident where police hid in the motorman's car while they watched citizens being stabbed, and an unarmed citizen subdue the bad guy...
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/22/man-gets-stabbed-on-subway-guess-how-hel

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Why can we use a gun to protect ourselves in the home, but not outside in public?  What's the difference?
Control...

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I agree with lack of training in the gun community.  Most gun owners buy a gun and think they can shoot when they can't.  The vast majority of training that have a gun for safety have minimal or no training besides shooting at paper targets without shooting themselves.  And even those probably haven't shot their guns in years or decades.   To use a gun safely in a self-defense scenario they should be proficient with the operation, go through scenarios, low light training, hand to hand defense, know they'll be willing to take a life to save a life, etc.

Yes, I think all gun owners should get training, the more the better. The problem in "agreeing" that there needs to be some mandated training is twofold. First, there is the Constitutional issue. What other core, fundamental Constitutional right requires mandated training before you can exercise that right? Free Speech, voting, choice of religion...?

Second, as we can so clearly see by Hawaii's onerous rules, if the government is allowed to make the training requirements they are likely to be expensive, onerous, and sometimes just plain stupid (compare hunter's ed with the class requirements for 4 hours of classroom training and 2 hours of live firing).

HiCarry

Re: GUNS IN HAWAII... MATT investigates
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2016, 11:37:23 AM »
Just ran across this...not HPD but it is another bastion of liberalism and gun-phobia.

http://www.ksbw.com/news/hundreds-of-guns-lost-or-stolen-from-sf-bay-area-police-since-2010/39342644

I wonder what the ratio of police stolen guns versus citizen's stolen guns are there? For that matter, I wonder what it is here?