2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Steve2Hawaii on December 09, 2011, 10:41:11 AM
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This happened in my neighborhood Wednesday morning, just a half a block away:
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/135218173.html (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/135218173.html)
I personally did not hear the screams, nor did my wife. If I had, I would have joined the three who went to the woman's rescue. However, since this is Hawaii, and the only people issued concealed (or open) carry are the police, I would have had to leave my trusty P220 behind. My question is, would you have done the same? What would you have taken with you if you were unable to take a firearm? What would have happened to me had I taken my pistol? I know what the law is. I just want some practical advice. BTW, I'm new to this forum and this is my first post.
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http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/135298793.html?id=135298793
Good question...
Link didn't work for some reason.
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I corrected the link in my original post. Thanks for checking and adding the follow-on story. They showed the perp on KITV-4 last night. His face was pretty messed up from the rescuer's beating on him. Pretty brave of those three guys to came to the woman's rescue. To interrupt an assult, unarmed, is brave in my book. My hat goes off to them. Hopefully I'll see them some day in the neighborhood so I can thank them personally.
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Uhh...personally, my own neighborhood, they're fighting and chest-beating and arguing at all hours of the day. They'll no joke yell at each other full on at 2am. They also have all sorts of people stopping by for 10 minutes and blocking my friggin driveway, also at all hours of the day. They're bad people, and I really don't care if bad things happened to them. I wouldn't help them. If I hear a full on fight/shootout or a woman screaming (from that side of the fence anyway), I hope by morning the police would have thinned those pack of dogs over there and throw someone in jail, though I don't have much faith in that....police go there repeatedly and just slap their hand and tell them to stop. Fighting. Arguing. Music playing. Selling drugs. Yeah they can burn.
My side of the fence though, I may help. If I can hear a guarantee rape or a murder going on (danger to life or limb), I'll help and I'll probably bring a firearm. If it's just regular domestics, not my business enough to intervene.
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
Because it is a waste of his time. When the cops show up, everyone is quiet.
Brah, Wut Noise? I nevah hearum.
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
Because it is a waste of his time. When the cops show up, everyone is quiet.
Brah, Wut Noise? I nevah hearum.
I look at it as due diligence. It may not end the noise for good, but you have to have it on record that you took the steps.
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
I used to call 911...
"Police, fire, or ambulance?"
"Police."
"Is this an emergency?"
"Yes" for fighting sounds, "No" for loud music.
Loud music or sitting outside in their driveway talking loud story and playing instruments at 12:00am, of course I still have to call 911.
For fighting and such, I stopped bothering calling. Calling the police only has a short-term delay of the events recurring again. It's come to the point where I think they expect the neighbors (us) to call the police, to rely on the police to break up their personal disagreements and act as nanny mediators. Last year or couple years ago there was a pretty bad fight where there was a bunch of people on their driveway and one of those societal trash pulled out a sharp object (box cutter I think) and slashed the other trash up. It has been relatively quiet compared to before that event. Much more efficient than all the times I've ever called the police. My only regret is that the neighbors upstairs both had boyfriends that apparently went out to help break up the fight when it got bad and ended the conflict. I can only imagine how much quieter it would be today if they hadn't meddled.
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Obvious question: Have you looked at other neighborhoods to move to?
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oh we have. I won't say we "can't" move, because I hate hearing that poor excuse from other people who are woe-is-me boohooing. One day we'd like to move. It can be hard to find something that is not charging more than $1000 (our current rent) and allows pets, but it's certainly doable if we put our mind to it and apply ourselves. The neighbors are a pretty big annoyance, but not exactly threatening our livelihood. They don't talk to our side of the fence and don't come to look for trouble with us, even though our driveways run side by side. When I first moved there 5 years ago, I walked over there and asked the kid nicely to turn his music down while he was sitting in his car. He just looked at me and closed his eyes and ignored me. I took his license plate number but didn't call the police. He turned the music down after a few minutes though. Guess he didn't want any cops showing up while he's buying his drugs from his dealer.
It's easier to hope they hurt each other permanently than us go through the big headache of moving everything. Those animals will act the same regardless of what I hope, so I won't feel bad when it finally happens again.
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Uhh...personally, my own neighborhood, they're fighting and chest-beating and arguing at all hours of the day. They'll no joke yell at each other full on at 2am. They also have all sorts of people stopping by for 10 minutes and blocking my friggin driveway, also at all hours of the day. They're bad people, and I really don't care if bad things happened to them. I wouldn't help them. If I hear a full on fight/shootout or a woman screaming (from that side of the fence anyway), I hope by morning the police would have thinned those pack of dogs over there and throw someone in jail, though I don't have much faith in that....police go there repeatedly and just slap their hand and tell them to stop. Fighting. Arguing. Music playing. Selling drugs. Yeah they can burn.
My side of the fence though, I may help. If I can hear a guarantee rape or a murder going on (danger to life or limb), I'll help and I'll probably bring a firearm. If it's just regular domestics, not my business enough to intervene.
Huuum... You must live near my place. Nah, but seriously. If you bring a gun off your property you'll get into heat. If the perp goes on your property you'll probably catch heat too. Sorry to say.
I wish Hawaii would be more self defense friendly.
Steve, welcome to the forum!
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Getting back to Steve's original question, I think you need to consider how much fallout you want to deal with after the fact. You will have to defend your actions in a court of law, and it's tricky business. If you cannot prove that you acted in precisely the amount of force necessary to the situation, you could end up going to jail. Even if you don't go to jail, the scumbag and his family can sue you in a civil court.
I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
Because it is a waste of his time. When the cops show up, everyone is quiet.
Brah, Wut Noise? I nevah hearum.
Be careful Voodu, if you anger princess buglegirl, she'll report you to the moderators. :shake:
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A wise man once wrote something about "avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation".
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Dregs, why don't you call 911 with a noise complaint? (For those who don't know, Honolulu uses 911 for non-emergency calls.)
Because it is a waste of his time. When the cops show up, everyone is quiet.
Brah, Wut Noise? I nevah hearum.
Be careful Voodu, if you anger princess buglegirl, she'll report you to the moderators. :shake:
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Thanks for the advice... :P
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Getting back to Steve's original question, I think you need to consider how much fallout you want to deal with after the fact. You will have to defend your actions in a court of law, and it's tricky business. If you cannot prove that you acted in precisely the amount of force necessary to the situation, you could end up going to jail. Even if you don't go to jail, the scumbag and his family can sue you in a civil court.
I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
I guess that's why so many people don't get involved. I live in a high rise apartment. No one would know whether or not I heard anything or not. I'd just have to live with my conscience. We get domestic arguments in our neighborhood fairly often, but I don't call the police until the f*** you's get loud enough.
Thanks for the advice.
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Getting back to Steve's original question, I think you need to consider how much fallout you want to deal with after the fact. You will have to defend your actions in a court of law, and it's tricky business. If you cannot prove that you acted in precisely the amount of force necessary to the situation, you could end up going to jail. Even if you don't go to jail, the scumbag and his family can sue you in a civil court.
I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
I guess that's why so many people don't get involved. I live in a high rise apartment. No one would know whether or not I heard anything or not. I'd just have to live with my conscience. We get domestic arguments in our neighborhood fairly often, but I don't call the police until the f*** you's get loud enough.
Thanks for the advice.
Being punished for getting involved. One of the many benefits of living in a nanny state. :(
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Getting back to Steve's original question, I think you need to consider how much fallout you want to deal with after the fact. You will have to defend your actions in a court of law, and it's tricky business. If you cannot prove that you acted in precisely the amount of force necessary to the situation, you could end up going to jail. Even if you don't go to jail, the scumbag and his family can sue you in a civil court.
I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
I guess that's why so many people don't get involved. I live in a high rise apartment. No one would know whether or not I heard anything or not. I'd just have to live with my conscience. We get domestic arguments in our neighborhood fairly often, but I don't call the police until the f*** you's get loud enough.
Thanks for the advice.
Being punished for getting involved. One of the many benefits of living in a nanny state. :(
Hawaii, love it or LEAVE it.
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Getting back to Steve's original question, I think you need to consider how much fallout you want to deal with after the fact. You will have to defend your actions in a court of law, and it's tricky business. If you cannot prove that you acted in precisely the amount of force necessary to the situation, you could end up going to jail. Even if you don't go to jail, the scumbag and his family can sue you in a civil court.
I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
I guess that's why so many people don't get involved. I live in a high rise apartment. No one would know whether or not I heard anything or not. I'd just have to live with my conscience. We get domestic arguments in our neighborhood fairly often, but I don't call the police until the f*** you's get loud enough.
Thanks for the advice.
Being punished for getting involved. One of the many benefits of living in a nanny state. :(
Hawaii, love it or LEAVE it.
Or try and change it.....
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Uhh...personally, my own neighborhood, they're fighting and chest-beating and arguing at all hours of the day. They'll no joke yell at each other full on at 2am. They also have all sorts of people stopping by for 10 minutes and blocking my friggin driveway, also at all hours of the day. They're bad people, and I really don't care if bad things happened to them. I wouldn't help them. If I hear a full on fight/shootout or a woman screaming (from that side of the fence anyway), I hope by morning the police would have thinned those pack of dogs over there and throw someone in jail, though I don't have much faith in that....police go there repeatedly and just slap their hand and tell them to stop. Fighting. Arguing. Music playing. Selling drugs. Yeah they can burn.
My side of the fence though, I may help. If I can hear a guarantee rape or a murder going on (danger to life or limb), I'll help and I'll probably bring a firearm. If it's just regular domestics, not my business enough to intervene.
Geezz brah where you live? Mayor Wrights??
Sorry I lived there when I was younger my mom was raised there. And it sounds just like that place. It's the whole reason I live on Kauai now.
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My roommates and I interrupted an attempted rape or assault in progress outside my apartment when I was in college.
We heard the screams. No mistaking the intensity - it was pure, animal terror. We all instantly bolted for the door. I hesitated for a split second - both the mossberg 500 and an oak staff were by the door... I took the staff. As soon as the 3 of us appeared the perp let the girl go but he was in the act of trying to force her towards his car by an arm around her body and a fist full of hair. I don't think she even realized she was being helped or that we were there - as soon as he let go she ran like a rabbit and hid. With no victim there was no crime so we watched him get in the car and drive away. Got his plate number, though.
My roomy insisted we call the police to report it. I didn't see what the point was since the perp and the victim were gone. The police had the same response. Politely thanked us for letting them know, its good to have these kinds of statistics, nothing to be done about it even with the plate number, yada yada.
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Geezz brah where you live? Mayor Wrights??
Sorry I lived there when I was younger my mom was raised there. And it sounds just like that place. It's the whole reason I live on Kauai now.
hard knock street of Ward area brah! lol.
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LOL!! :D
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My roommates and I interrupted an attempted rape or assault in progress outside my apartment when I was in college.
We heard the screams. No mistaking the intensity - it was pure, animal terror. We all instantly bolted for the door. I hesitated for a split second - both the mossberg 500 and an oak staff were by the door... I took the staff. As soon as the 3 of us appeared the perp let the girl go but he was in the act of trying to force her towards his car by an arm around her body and a fist full of hair. I don't think she even realized she was being helped or that we were there - as soon as he let go she ran like a rabbit and hid. With no victim there was no crime so we watched him get in the car and drive away. Got his plate number, though.
My roomy insisted we call the police to report it. I didn't see what the point was since the perp and the victim were gone. The police had the same response. Politely thanked us for letting them know, its good to have these kinds of statistics, nothing to be done about it even with the plate number, yada yada.
First, good on you and your friends for doing the right thing. If more people were like you guys, our world would be a much better place. As for the cops' response, it can be disheartening, but at least by having taken a few minutes to make the call, at least you know you've done your end. Now if that guy goes and assaults someone else, 1) it's on the cops if there was anything they could have done with that information and they didn't, instead of you for keeping that info to yourself, and 2) it could help convict him with your report as evidence.
But again, kudos to you and your friends, man. Everyday heroes. :thumbsup:
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I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
Each person has their own level of concious and moral compass. Also, depending on the situation warrants level of force, http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html, (http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html,) people were watching and didn't do anything. Hawaii does have a Protection of Others Statute which is http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm. (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm.)
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Your URLs not working man.
And i would think your refrencing the situation where the samoan guy was beating his ex with the shotgun while she held on to the stop sgin screaming for help until blood oozed from her eyes and she died?
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I hate to say it, but simply yelling "Help! Someone's being attacked! I'm calling 911!" and continuing to draw attention to the situation might be the best thing you can do for yourself and the victim.
Each person has their own level of concious and moral compass. Also, depending on the situation warrants level of force, http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html, (http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html,) people were watching and didn't do anything. Hawaii does have a Protection of Others Statute which is http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm. (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm.)
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrs2002/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrs2002/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0305.htm)
§703-305 Use of force for the protection of other persons. (1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-310, the use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(a) Under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(b) The actor believes that the actor's intervention is necessary for the protection of the other person.
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1):
(a) When the actor would be obliged under section 703-304 to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing, or to comply with a demand before using force in self- protection, the actor is not obliged to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless the actor knows that the actor can thereby secure the complete safety of such other person; and
(b) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be obliged under section 703-304 to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand if the person knew that the person could obtain complete safety by so doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause the person to do so before using force in the person's protection if the actor knows that the actor can obtain the other's complete safety in that way; and
(c) Neither the actor nor the person whom the actor seeks to protect is obliged to retreat when in the other's dwelling or place of work to any greater extent than in the actor's or the person's own. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; gen ch 1993]
Thanks for steering me to the statutes. It's interesting reading. (I didn't know Hawaii law gave teachers the right to spank kids, for example!) We can debate what the above means, and how it actually plays out in courts, but there are further considerations when faced with a potentially violent situation, such as the possibility that you have misunderstood the situation, retaliatory action from the perp and friends, police arriving on the scene thinking you're the attacker, etc.
I helped break up a fight at a bar a while ago, and it was only afterwards I thought, Oh, this really could have escalated to something serious. What if someone had a gun or a knife?
I totally agree that doing *nothing* is reprehensible. Absolutely. It's better, though, to be aware and prepared, than to rush in and act without considering possible and probable repercussions, ESPECIALLY when you bring a gun into the situation, which could include you going to jail. Drawing attention to the attacker, calling the police, getting backup from bystanders, these are all proper actions that don't necessarily include direct physical involvement.
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Working link to the story above: http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html (http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html) (The comma got bunched with the url.)
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Working link to the story above: http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html (http://www.kitv.com/r/15076317/detail.html) (The comma got bunched with the url.)
Your URLs not working man.
And i would think your refrencing the situation where the samoan guy was beating his ex with the shotgun while she held on to the stop sgin screaming for help until blood oozed from her eyes and she died?
Yeah same one i was talking about. Sad story all around. Domestic violence seems to be pretty top on the list of problems here
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Antonie..Thank you for posting the statutes on here for all to read along with correcting the url links.
In the case of the Kailua incident the gun was already brought to the table from the aggressor. Though I guess we could always just call 911 (http://hawaiiccw.com/news/seconds-count-alive/) since that's what there there for and they will be there immediately to stop the assault, murder, rape, etc. (sarcastic tone).
Sarcasm aside, I definitely understand your point of view. I personally may or may not think twice in getting into a armed physical altercation. If I was involved in a use of force incident as a civilian I would most likely be handcuffed and taken to lock up until all the facts are presented. The weapon used in the altercation would most likely confiscated though there is enough case law throughout the US that would justify PROPER actions. I have training here and there that taught use of force, etc and various court cases about use of force that a reasonable person would be justified in using and surprisingly enough Hawaii law states something similar. I really don't care to debate anything as every situation is different and as one instructor put it you don't know how the law is until it is tried in court. Also in my opinion, as long as you choose the right path and your on the side of good things will sort out over time. Now yes you could be sued by the family in civil court even if the City Prosecutor says it's definitely self defense and of course the family is going to say he was a choir boy, never hurt anyone or anything and, I believe in criminal law burden of proof has to be near 100% that the person is guilty while in civil law the burden of proof is only 100%, but again if your in the right most of these individuals have prior troubled pasts that follow them.
Just my $0.02 nothing more nothing less.
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Thanks for all the discussion and advice. I think if something like this happens again, and I go out to help, I'm definitely not taking any firearm with me. I'll probably take my pepper spray, a good folding knife, and my big old 3 cell D cell Mag-lite flashlight (if it's dark). Otherwise, things just get way too complicated. I'm not interested in spending any time in jail or court. I don't want my guns taken away from me either. I guess that's the price I pay to live in Hawaii, at least until the law changes.
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I have a south pacific war club displayed near the door for stuff like that. It also has some intricate carvings and doubles as a cool piece of art.
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I have a south pacific war club displayed near the door for stuff like that. It also has some intricate carvings and doubles as a cool piece of art.
Shark teeth on it and all?
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No just your run-of-the-mill oversize baseball bat carved out of ironwood.
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No just your run-of-the-mill oversize baseball bat carved out of ironwood.
Ahhh I see............all in all though, one of those paddles with shark teeth on it would be a nice thing to have next to the front door................never know when you need to shoo those Girl Scouts away................. :wacko:
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There was a standup comic I saw once who talked about how if you meet an intruder with a gun, they'll think you might shoot them if they don't leave, but if you meet them with a sword, they'll think you're crazy and GTFO without being asked.
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Here's a scenario for you guys (and this one happened but never got any coverage, my poor neighbor and his wife witnessed the whole thing): 3 guys in their early twenties chase down a fourth young man and start taking turns bullying him and roughing him up. The scuffle gets close to you and your SO (my friend moved to protect his wife) and you get bumped a little and the group moves away but everything is still visible. The forcefulness of the attacks escalate to where the three guys are seriously beating the fourth. Then two more guys a lot larger than the first three come up and join in the beat down. After almost 10 minutes security arrives and tries to break up the action but the 2 guards are helpless because as they pull off one or two guys the others just rush in. Eventually the guards give up and standby helplessly for another 10 minutes or so until the police arrive and the attackers take off leaving the victim a beaten and bloody mess. This happened outside Aiea Bowl early evening time. My friend and his wife were sitting outside waiting for their other friends and for a table. He said if he hadn't moved to his wife's side she would have been the one getting bumped and shoved before the fight moved on. What tore him apart is that he is a former boxer and he felt helpless because of the odds and not wanting to go to jail.
In group fights like that I've always been taught "nothing fancy go for max damage- soft tissue and joints. Break something and seriously mame the first guy to get a surprise advantage and to guarantee at least that first guy is down and then proceed accordingly". But legally is a by-stander not involved in the altercation allowed to come to the aide of the victim? 5 on 1 is some pretty serious odds. My poor neighbor is still upset and we always return to the subject of what to do next time and would we go to jail for breaking the guys knee or jaw to put him down? I was lucky I wasn't there and I didn't have to witness the brutality and the resulting messed up guy. When is ok to be the good citizen coming to the rescue when it means causing bodily harm to another individual?
I think Hawaii's stupid sense of the law and the its not my problem I shouldn't get involved mentality really sucks. I've lived here all my life and see it so often. I would feel helpless too and I still question if I would have jumped in. I say I would but until the day comes we'll never know.
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Tough decision Kala.
The thought in the back of everyones mind is that you will go to jail just because you tried to kokua.
It is serious bullshit.