2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: ren on July 02, 2018, 08:40:00 PM
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so that you can pay for things that other people who don't work , want
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ocasio-cortez-socialism-apos-part-065937406.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/ocasio-cortez-socialism-apos-part-065937406.html)
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This is the problem with the 16th Amendment.
There are many more poor than producers.
Seems to be human nature.
I'm a charitable guy, but I'm more than happy
to starve and obliterate lazy Democrat voters
with EBT cards and driving $60,000 Diesel
4WD four door F 350's.
BTW my newest truck is a 2004, needs a Transmission
and soon an engine.
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At least for health care we end up paying for them anyway with ER prices. We shouldn't give them free housing but there is an argument to be made for free health care.
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At least for health care we end up paying for them anyway with ER prices. We shouldn't give them free housing but there is an argument to be made for free health care.
Why does a doctor who spent a fortune and years of his/her LIFE getting trained
owe you something for free?
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At least for health care we end up paying for them anyway with ER prices. We shouldn't give them free housing but there is an argument to be made for free health care.
There is also proof that government can't provide said healthcare even after massive taxation.
UK is experiencing horrible wait times with "free" healthcare there, and people are LITERALLY dying to be seen.
Jan 2018
LONDON — At some emergency wards, patients wait more than 12 hours before they are tended to. Corridors
are jammed with beds carrying frail and elderly patients waiting to be admitted to hospital wards. Outpatient
appointments were canceled to free up staff members, and by Wednesday morning hospitals had been ordered
to postpone nonurgent surgeries until the end of the month.
Cuts to the National Health Service budget in Britain have left hospitals stretched over the winter for years, but
this time a flu outbreak, colder weather and high levels of respiratory illnesses have put the N.H.S. under the
highest strain in decades.
The situation has become so dire that the head of the health service is warning that the system is overwhelmed.
Some doctors took to Twitter to vent their frustrations publicly. One complained of having to practice “battlefield
medicine,” while another apologized for the “3rd world conditions” caused by overcrowding.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html
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Why does a doctor who spent a fortune and years of his/her LIFE getting trained
owe you something for free?
Hippocratic Oath?
Doctors are good people?
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Hippocratic Oath?
Doctors are good people?
Maybe half a century ago before medicine became as technologically diverse as it has. Today, most specialize due to the breadth of knowledge needed to do just one specific service, like Radiology or Oncology.
Too much time, energy and sacrifice to learn and keep up with to not want commensurate compensation.
We can't all be Mother Teresa.
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Why does a doctor who spent a fortune and years of his/her LIFE getting trained
owe you something for free?
I never said doctors shouldn't be paid. I am referring to a publicly funded health care system
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There is also proof that government can't provide said healthcare even after massive taxation.
UK is experiencing horrible wait times with "free" healthcare there, and people are LITERALLY dying to be seen.
Jan 2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html
There are functioning publicly funded health care systems all over the world. Each have their own drawbacks and difficulties. UK has people dying from long waits and we have people dying from preventable diseases because they can't afford treatmen and or going bankrupt. Pointing out problems of other societies doesn't allow us to ignore those of our own. It also doesn't mean we can't do it better.
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demand is greater than supply
When something is free there are no controls to limit needs.
If I did my due diligence to work, save money to care for my families' healthcare needs why should I pay for those that didn't?
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There are functioning publicly funded health care systems all over the world. Each have their own drawbacks and difficulties. UK has people dying from long waits and we have people dying from preventable diseases because they can't afford treatmen and or going bankrupt. Pointing out problems of other societies doesn't allow us to ignore those of our own. It also doesn't mean we can't do it better.
So in your world, it's better to drain capital from the citizens in the form of massive taxation, take over the healthcare industry, and still provide the same level of care as the private system?
The government appreciates your financial support. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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So in your world, it's better to drain capital from the citizens in the form of massive taxation, take over the healthcare industr
Of course, that is the leftist/globalist way: government uber-alles.
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why should I pay for those that didn't?
Cause you're a swell guy. Thousands of poor people depend on you.
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We already waste trillions of our tax dollars to support parasites who would rather bleed the system to buy useless status symbols rather than go out and get real jobs
It's called the Military Industrial Complex
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Yep. Sold the govt some underground silos and Im chillin in my condo above Ala Moana. Love the view here.
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demand is greater than supply
When something is free there are no controls to limit needs.
If I did my due diligence to work, save money to care for my families' healthcare needs why should I pay for those that didn't?
Why should I pay taxes to educate your kids if I don't have kids? We already have a number of socialized systems in our society. If we are to use that same logic we would need to eliminate a lot of services and charge everyone separately.
But even if you are responsible and buy insurance you are still paying into a subsidized system that averages costs to everyone. Furthermore even being responsible under our current system can still end up leaving you broke under the right circumstances. And when that broke person needs more health care they go to the ER and anyway and you and I end up paying for it anyway.
I wouldn't personally advocate an entirely free system, I would want a co-pay to be required.
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So in your world, it's better to drain capital from the citizens in the form of massive taxation, take over the healthcare industry, and still provide the same level of care as the private system?
The government appreciates your financial support. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
That's not how I would choose to fund it or how I would choose to run it though.
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There are functioning publicly funded health care systems all over the world.
Don"t forget about the VA.
307,000 veterans may have died awaiting Veterans Affairs health care, report says
https://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/index.html
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Why should I pay taxes to educate your kids if I don't have kids? We already have a number of socialized systems in our society. If we are to use that same logic we would need to eliminate a lot of services and charge everyone separately.
But even if you are responsible and buy insurance you are still paying into a subsidized system that averages costs to everyone. Furthermore even being responsible under our current system can still end up leaving you broke under the right circumstances. And when that broke person needs more health care they go to the ER and anyway and you and I end up paying for it anyway.
I wouldn't personally advocate an entirely free system, I would want a co-pay to be required.
I agree. You shouldn't pay for my kids education.
So who will pay for free healthcare?
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Don"t forget about the VA.
307,000 veterans may have died awaiting Veterans Affairs health care, report says
https://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/index.html
Part of the Military Industrial Complex
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I agree. You shouldn't pay for my kids education.
So who will pay for free healthcare?
The same people that pay for other socialized programs such as rubbish pickup, public schools, public parks, police, fired firghters, ambulance services, prisons, etc etc etc. Even then, if you have HMSA and I have HMSA then we are both paying into a pool of money and I may end up paying for your kids healthcare.
I would personally cut certain other programs to pehy for/help pay for universal health care. Food stamps for starters and some other social programs which don't have the same need and circumstances as health care. I would disolve the VA and Medicare and reogranize it into Medicaid or just start from scratch. A lot of money is wasted in having veteran care separate from regular health care systems. My first priority would be to figure out how to make health care cheaper, then we figure out how to get it to all.
But here again, you are paying for other people's healthcare when you go to a hospital because they have to spread the costs of the patients who are unable to afford the bill. Don't forget that there are social benefits to various social programs that are not directly seen.
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The same people that pay for other socialized programs such as rubbish pickup, public schools, public parks, police, fired firghters, ambulance services, prisons, etc etc etc. Even then, if you have HMSA and I have HMSA then we are both paying into a pool of money and I may end up paying for your kids healthcare.
I would personally cut certain other programs to pehy for/help pay for universal health care. Food stamps for starters and some other social programs which don't have the same need and circumstances as health care. I would disolve the VA and Medicare and reogranize it into Medicaid or just start from scratch. A lot of money is wasted in having veteran care separate from regular health care systems. My first priority would be to figure out how to make health care cheaper, then we figure out how to get it to all.
But here again, you are paying for other people's healthcare when you go to a hospital because they have to spread the costs of the patients who are unable to afford the bill. Don't forget that there are social benefits to various social programs that are not directly seen.
We still pay into healthcare for those of that work - so it's not free
But I can see consolidating healthcare may work. I don't trust government as the administrator of this large fund though.
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We still pay into healthcare for those of that work - so it's not free
But I can see consolidating healthcare may work. I don't trust government as the administrator of this large fund though.
I don't think I would place the entire thing in the hands of the government. I would try to keep as much privatization as possible.
What I am absolutely for is subsidized health care for anyone under 18 because a minor should not have to suffer for the faults of their parents.
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I don't think I would place the entire thing in the hands of the government. I would try to keep as much privatization as possible.
What I am absolutely for is subsidized health care for anyone under 18 because a minor should not have to suffer for the faults of their parents.
I agree
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We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world because of the private insurance industry scam that Nixon and Kissinger started back in the 70's. This isn't about doctors making a living, but executives making a killing. We are conditioned to swallow outrageous premium increases and get nothing in return every time some multi billion dollar marketing department cries crocodile tears about expenses going up. Nobody questions why a band-aid costs $100 while you can literally walk to the store and buy a whole box for next to nothing.
"That's just the way it is, and to do it any other way would be Socialist and evil" they say. Thinking for yourself is difficult after all, and they depend on intellectual laziness to continue the scam.
And then there's the question of what to do with the poor and mentally ill. The whole notion that people who fall through the cracks are somehow unworthy and deserve suffering and early death is sick and self destructive. Without public health there is no economy. Usually the people who push that extreme ideology and complain about "welfare queens" the loudest have no problem accepting benefits from the government when it's their turn to belly up to the trough.
Their ideology can best be described as "Socialism for me, law of the jungle capitalism for everyone else."
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We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world because of the private insurance industry scam that Nixon and Kissinger started back in the 70's. This isn't about doctors making a living, but executives making a killing. We are conditioned to swallow outrageous premium increases and get nothing in return every time some multi billion dollar marketing department cries crocodile tears about expenses going up. Nobody questions why a band-aid costs $100 while you can literally walk to the store and buy a whole box for next to nothing.
"That's just the way it is, and to do it any other way would be Socialist and evil" they say. Thinking for yourself is difficult after all, and they depend on intellectual laziness to continue the scam.
And then there's the question of what to do with the poor and mentally ill. The whole notion that people who fall through the cracks are somehow unworthy and deserve suffering and early death is sick and self destructive. Without public health there is no economy. Usually the people who push that extreme ideology and complain about "welfare queens" the loudest have no problem accepting benefits from the government when it's their turn to belly up to the trough.
Their ideology can best be described as "Socialism for me, law of the jungle capitalism for everyone else."
There's that and there's also a LOT of waste in the health care "industry". Industry being a key word. Yeah, some of the waste is for good reasons, like importance of sanitary conditions. But lots of products get pushed for the bottom line as opposed to being the best product for the application.
The poor and mentally ill is a tough one. I just know that I am tired of paying for the bad decisions of others, and that includes healthcare and other welfare programs. I believe welfare benefits are needed in our society, but like the healthcare system, I see so much blatant abuse of it. Both abuse by those who use the healthcare system (patients) as well as those who manipulate the healthcare system.
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I just know that I am tired of paying for the bad decisions of others...
Health care is one of the single largest factors in people declaring bankruptcy. In other words they made all the right choices but still lost everything. It's not like building a vacation home on the side of an active volcano. These were normal hard working people trying to do the best they can, but suddenly they were thrown out onto the street because they got hit and run by a drunk driver or one of their kids got cancer.
Before they were part of the productive economy and now they are on welfare thanks to corporate greed and political bribery.
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Health care is one of the single largest factors in people declaring bankruptcy. In other words they made all the right choices but still lost everything. It's not like building a vacation home on the side of an active volcano. These were normal hard working people trying to do the best they can, but suddenly they were thrown out onto the street because they got hit and run by a drunk driver or one of their kids got cancer.
Before they were part of the productive economy and now they are on welfare thanks to corporate greed and political bribery.
Not the situation I had in mind, though I have heard many cases like that.
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There are all types of situations, but the most damaging ones are where productive people are unnecessarily taken out of the economy. It's what is known as an Externalized Cost, which means nobody figures it into the larger economic picture. Taking externalized costs into consideration would likely blow the whole Heathcare Spending = 18% GDP right out of the water, because the economic damage that the policies inflict would wipe out any gains at least twice over.
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There are all types of situations, but the most damaging ones are where productive people are unnecessarily taken out of the economy. It's what is known as an Externalized Cost, which means nobody figures it into the larger economic picture. Taking externalized costs into consideration would likely blow the whole Heathcare Spending = 18% GDP right out of the water, because the economic damage that the policies inflict would wipe out any gains at least twice over.
I was referring to situations where folks continually make bad decisions on their health and end up needing continued treatment, which costs $$$. I mean it's someone's choice to eat all the sweets that they want, develop diabetes and eventually need dialysis and stuff. But I've personally seen many cases where the healthcare for those folks is picked up by, well, not them. . .
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I was referring to situations where folks continually make bad decisions on their health and end up needing continued treatment, which costs $$$. I mean it's someone's choice to eat all the sweets that they want, develop diabetes and eventually need dialysis and stuff. But I've personally seen many cases where the healthcare for those folks is picked up by, well, not them. . .
I think one aim of socialized Healthcare is that some of that would be prevented by early intervention. Those who cannot afford to go to the doctor will skip seeking medical treatment because an out-of-pocket cost for a single visit might be a hundred fifty bucks. Then the problem is exacerbated and they end up in the emergency room sometime later where we all pick up the tab. Education and regular check-ups can go a long way towards catching or preventing many lifestyle-related sicknesses.
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I think one aim of socialized Healthcare is that some of that would be prevented by early intervention. Those who cannot afford to go to the doctor will skip seeking medical treatment because an out-of-pocket cost for a single visit might be a hundred fifty bucks. Then the problem is exacerbated and they end up in the emergency room sometime later where we all pick up the tab. Education and regular check-ups can go a long way towards catching or preventing many lifestyle-related sicknesses.
My example has nothing to do with affordability of care. Those at issue here aren't paying for their care. The issue is that they had a choice whether or not to change their diet/behavior and they didn't. No big deal to them as they don't suffer financially from that poor decision. If they paid for the resulting healthcare, whatever. Eat whatever you want. It's when I have to pay for it. . .
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We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world...because of the private insurance industry scam
Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.
I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).
Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.
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Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.
I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).
Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.
I looked at it that way too. Strongest survive.
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My example has nothing to do with affordability of care. Those at issue here aren't paying for their care. The issue is that they had a choice whether or not to change their diet/behavior and they didn't. No big deal to them as they don't suffer financially from that poor decision. If they paid for the resulting healthcare, whatever. Eat whatever you want. It's when I have to pay for it. . .
I understand your logic but where health care differs from general cause and effect consequences is that in health care the consequences are not always immediate so the lesson isn't as effective. Now if you didn't wear safet glasses and you get something in your eye while working with power tools the lesson is immediate and more effective. Diabetes though is not immediate so the consequence is less tangible at the time they make their choices. Humans by nature just aren't that great with foresight. So if you tell someone "ok, when you get diabetes 20 years from now we won't cover you" it just isn't a very good deterrent because it isn't that tangible. Teenagers especially have trouble processing these types of decisions.
That is ome reason why I would do away with certain other aid programs like food stamps because that is a much more immediate consequence and is very tangible. Waste money on a luxury and you go hungry.
A lot of health care problems are preventable with good diet and exercise but a lot aren't and sometimes those are the most expensive. Many forms of cancer for example, accidents where someone suffers serious trauma, etc.
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I looked at it that way too. Strongest survive.
But where is our strength. In our humanity or our cold hearted calculation.
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Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.
I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).
Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.
I would not let children suffer for the lack of effort on behalf of the poor choices of their parents, telling them "sorry your parents are poor so we are going to let you die for a treatable disease because we don't want to shoulder that burden. Plus this way we are culling the herd"
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But where is our strength. In our humanity or our cold hearted calculation.
I know. I was watching the Discovery Channel and a lion ate an adolescent gazelle. Looking at the way nature operates there is no humanity or compassion - just a matter of survival and unfortunately the weak don't survive.
But we are humans who have compassion. We wouldn't do those things. Ironically, I'm eating a burger
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When I was a kid my parents didn't buy me any toys or garbage pail kids. I suffered greatly because of my parents.
Society isn't obligated to provide kids with the highest standards for free. You can live without a doctor. Plenty of working adults live without doctors. Other working adults see doctors too often, every time they sneeze or stub their toe, and health insurance makes me pay for their stupidity. I don't want to pay for someone else's kid with cancer when I wouldn't even be able to afford the same treatment for myself. If our health system were less corrupt and the costs affordable, certain limited expenditures could be a consideration, but right now it should be out of the question.
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Some states expanded medicare/medicaid to cover everyone, not just the traditional aged or poor patients. It was in response to the abysmal ACA.
I've read some very positive things from people who needed coverage for existing conditions that were very expensive to treat. Some went as far as moving to other states to qualify and use those programs.
One of the biggest impediments to national healthcare solutions is the state-by-state regulatory nightmare. States don't allow insurers to sell policies unless they meet all the requirements of that state. Unless they are certified and licensed, they are barred from selling there.
That nightmare kills competition, which greatly drives up prices. What corporate exec wouldn't want their state to create barriers to new competition?
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When I was a kid my parents didn't buy me any toys or garbage pail kids. I suffered greatly because of my parents.
Society isn't obligated to provide kids with the highest standards for free. You can live without a doctor. Plenty of working adults live without doctors. Other working adults see doctors too often, every time they sneeze or stub their toe, and health insurance makes me pay for their stupidity. I don't want to pay for someone else's kid with cancer when I wouldn't even be able to afford the same treatment for myself. If our health system were less corrupt and the costs affordable, certain limited expenditures could be a consideration, but right now it should be out of the question.
Well I am certainly in agreeance with needing to reform health care costs in and of itself. There are certainly a number of barriers that need to be broken down to make health care cheaper but we can't pretend it will ever be cheap. Advanced medicine comes with a cost, the best scans and tests will always cost a lot of money to develope.
Under a socialize system you would have to pay for someone else's kid but someone would also pay for you if you were the one sick. If you purchase health insurance the same thing still happens. Costs are average among s pool of people. And actually a lot of people cannot live without a doctor. I think the drop in infant mortality over the last hundred years alone is a huge testiment to that.
You are right, nothing says we have to take care of others but I think we can choose to.
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You are right, nothing says we have to take care of others but I think we can choose to.
Who is "we"? And under whose authority do you presume to choose for others?
That's the problem with believing government has a charity mission. You wind up stealing money from everyone to fund charitable welfare programs which the majority don't get to choose.
Regardless of the good these programs might do for specific people, charity is to be funded through individual choices on how much and to whom they wish to donate. Government deciding who gets what benefits and how much takes the charitable aspect away. Those who approve think they are doing good things for the poor. Meanwhile, taxes are making more people poor so they may need to rely on these same programs.
Self-licking ice cream cone.
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Who is "we"? And under whose authority do you presume to choose for others?
That's the problem with believing government has a charity mission. You wind up stealing money from everyone to fund charitable welfare programs which the majority don't get to choose.
Regardless of the good these programs might do for specific people, charity is to be funded through individual choices on how much and to whom they wish to donate. Government deciding who gets what benefits and how much takes the charitable aspect away. Those who approve think they are doing good things for the poor. Meanwhile, taxes are making more people poor so they may need to rely on these same programs.
Self-licking ice cream cone.
We, society, mankind, etc.
I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself, that's why i said "can" instead of should or must. I speak for myself and I vote that way. Since we all get to vote then the majority can decide.
Is it better that the insurance companies and health care companies make us poor, as long as it isn't the government? Here is the other catch, I think health care for all benefits an entire society. Kids who aren't sick are going to do better in school which may reduce crime rates for example. We are going to spend more incarcerating them later than preventative care now.
Same like public school, you think society would be safer if we left all the poor kids out of school on the grounds that you don't want the government to steal.your money? Keep in mind I am for smaller government but I do think there are areas where everyone would benefit from government provided programs. I am sure I can find at least a few socialized programs you would support.
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We, society, mankind, etc.
I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself, that's why i said "can" instead of should or must. I speak for myself and I vote that way. Since we all get to vote then the majority can decide.
Is it better that the insurance companies and health care companies make us poor, as long as it isn't the government? Here is the other catch, I think health care for all benefits an entire society. Kids who aren't sick are going to do better in school which may reduce crime rates for example. We are going to spend more incarcerating them later than preventative care now.
Same like public school, you think society would be safer if we left all the poor kids out of school on the grounds that you don't want the government to steal.your money? Keep in mind I am for smaller government but I do think there are areas where everyone would benefit from government provided programs. I am sure I can find at least a few socialized programs you would support.
If you are poor and need medical care, there are many programs and charitable groups available to see that you get it. If it's critical care, no ER can turn you away for being uninsured.
Keep pushing the emotional appeals. It just solidifies my previous comments.
There is affordable healthcare available in colleges today. All full-time students can visit the campus clinic for care. There are financial aid programs to pay for college. Problem solved for these young adults.
So, if "everyone benefits," that's your litmus test for a massive takeover of 1/6th of the economy by gov't?
Glad you're for smaller gov't!! :shake:
Schools are not a federally-funded program. Straw man argument and totally off point.
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If you are poor and need medical care, there are many programs and charitable groups available to see that you get it. If it's critical care, no ER can turn you away for being uninsured.
Keep pushing the emotional appeals. It just solidifies my previous comments.
There is affordable healthcare available in colleges today. All full-time students can visit the campus clinic for care. There are financial aid programs to pay for college. Problem solved for these young adults.
So, if "everyone benefits," that's your litmus test for a massive takeover of 1/6th of the economy by gov't?
Glad you're for smaller gov't!! :shake:
Schools are not a federally-funded program. Straw man argument and totally off point.
I think you will find some of those charities lack enough resources to provide care for all those who cannot afford it, though I would be a strong supporter of charities taking the load of many other social systems. (Food stamps for example)
Like you said ER covers some stuff but we all end up paying for it. What if we can avoid a thousand dollar or ten thousand dollar bill with a annual checkup costing $100 isn't that possible it will save us all more money in the end? And one of the shortcomings of the ER is that someone might get a diagnosis for cancer but the ER isn't going to treat the cancer.
Why are you against an emotional appeal for health care but not one for protection of gun rights? We. Can't very well claim no emotional arguments then claim fear of an oppressive government.
Public schools are regulated federally and do often receive federal dollars. Yes, it benefits everyone is part of it but in limited application. I am talking about programs that will have long reaching benefits that could save us more than they cost us.
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I think you will find some of those charities lack enough resources to provide care for all those who cannot afford it, though I would be a strong supporter of charities taking the load of many other social systems. (Food stamps for example)
Like you said ER covers some stuff but we all end up paying for it. What if we can avoid a thousand dollar or ten thousand dollar bill with a annual checkup costing $100 isn't that possible it will save us all more money in the end? And one of the shortcomings of the ER is that someone might get a diagnosis for cancer but the ER isn't going to treat the cancer.
Why are you against an emotional appeal for health care but not one for protection of gun rights? We. Can't very well claim no emotional arguments then claim fear of an oppressive government.
Public schools are regulated federally and do often receive federal dollars. Yes, it benefits everyone is part of it but in limited application. I am talking about programs that will have long reaching benefits that could save us more than they cost us.
Emotional is not the same as passionate. Learn the difference. No one is afraid of an oppressive government. We are prepared, so there can't be one. Not afraid when you're able to defend yourself.
Resources in the hands of the government always give less to the beneficiary than is taken in taxes due to gov't overhead for supervision. As for resources in private charities, there are places like St Judes wh never turn a child away and always seem to have the resources through fundraising and donations.
Regulated is not funded. Schools only get federal money if they follow federal program guidelines to qualify. if we do away with the Dept of Education, which hasn't been around forever, the money saved could cut taxes, making local funding of schools easier. Why should parents in Colorado pay for federal funding that goes to Mississippi or Georgia? More overhead, less money for the stated purpose. Redundancy should be slashed at all levels, so we aren't paying for two or more of every organization.
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Emotional is not the same as passionate. Learn the difference. No one is afraid of an oppressive government. We are prepared, so there can't be one. Not afraid when you're able to defend yourself.
Resources in the hands of the government always give less to the beneficiary than is taken in taxes due to gov't overhead for supervision. As for resources in private charities, there are places like St Judes wh never turn a child away and always seem to have the resources through fundraising and donations.
Regulated is not funded. Schools only get federal money if they follow federal program guidelines to qualify. if we do away with the Dept of Education, which hasn't been around forever, the money saved could cut taxes, making local funding of schools easier. Why should parents in Colorado pay for federal funding that goes to Mississippi or Georgia? More overhead, less money for the stated purpose. Redundancy should be slashed at all levels, so we aren't paying for two or more of every organization.
A difference without a distinction. If you want to frame gun rights as passion and preparation then Fine but we can frame health care in the same fashion.
I would do away with the federal department of education if I had a choice. Not entirely though, maybe keep an officer with a small contingent of staff in charge of gathering statistics and sending out information for local schools.
I think we might go in circles if we continue so we maybe have to agree to disagree here.
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The reason why healthcare is so expensive and why it's given to poor people is our philosophy that all life is precious and we spare no expense for it. We are willing to spend the most for the best care and it runs counter to what we normally do in life which is picking the best value balancing price and effectiveness. If given the choice would you spend $20,000 for a drug that has a 70% chance of saving your life, or $100,000 for one that is 90%? You'd do everything you can to get the $100,000 option. When a new more effective (and more expensive) treatment becomes available the old less effective option is discarded where it otherwise would have been a value option. There's also less competition with the supply/demand aspects.
Same carries over to the poor. Majority of people would want to support the poor with some level of healthcare. Might be worthwhile to setup care clinics for the poor with the value proposition where they get a lower quality of care but for a much cheaper price. Perhaps setup cheaper medical schools where they train physicians on minimal care options. Keep them out of the ERs and save the better care for those that work hard for it.
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IMHO, the biggest reason why healthcare is so expensive is the healthcare industry practice, particularly pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, I get that it is a business, but when the healthcare execs are benefiting more than patients, as well as doctors, then that system is broken.
I wasn't saying we shouldn't support the poor or unfortunate with medical expenses. I was venting on being tired of having to pay for healthcare for folks that quite frankly couldn't care less as they have no appreciation for the value of their healthcare, appreciation for who is effectively paying for it, nor any intention of doing anything to improve their condition. I have pretty good health insurance, but I try my best to not NEED it by trying to take care of my health. My personal choice and I shouldn't impose that on others, but I feel that folks like me, who pay into the system end up getting shafted by those that generally only drain the system.
Much of that is frustration in what I see with welfare programs in general, particularly the abuse of the system. Yes, there are definitely those who genuinely need it and honestly benefit from it. I just see too many folks with EBT spending that lavishly, all while driving nice cars, plenty of bling, plenty of tats, etc. Yeah, their choice to live how they want to live and maybe all that other stuff is coming from legit things. Maybe I'm being unfairly judgemental. That said, that's what I see and I don't like it.
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IMHO, the biggest reason why healthcare is so expensive is the healthcare industry practice, particularly pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, I get that it is a business, but when the healthcare execs are benefiting more than patients, as well as doctors, then that system is broken.
I wasn't saying we shouldn't support the poor or unfortunate with medical expenses. I was venting on being tired of having to pay for healthcare for folks that quite frankly couldn't care less as they have no appreciation for the value of their healthcare, appreciation for who is effectively paying for it, nor any intention of doing anything to improve their condition. I have pretty good health insurance, but I try my best to not NEED it by trying to take care of my health. My personal choice and I shouldn't impose that on others, but I feel that folks like me, who pay into the system end up getting shafted by those that generally only drain the system.
Much of that is frustration in what I see with welfare programs in general, particularly the abuse of the system. Yes, there are definitely those who genuinely need it and honestly benefit from it. I just see too many folks with EBT spending that lavishly, all while driving nice cars, plenty of bling, plenty of tats, etc. Yeah, their choice to live how they want to live and maybe all that other stuff is coming from legit things. Maybe I'm being unfairly judgemental. That said, that's what I see and I don't like it.
I think we will reach a point where we can be judgemental. Especially since we are paying for it. People enjoy freedom. The problem is that they don't realize that freedom is a fruit that is raised and nurtured. Whether from past generations or from people of the current who remain unseen by those enjoying it.
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I think we will reach a point where we can be judgemental. Especially since we are paying for it. People enjoy freedom. The problem is that they don't realize that freedom is a fruit that is raised and nurtured. Whether from past generations or from people of the current who remain unseen by those enjoying it.
I am being judgemental, but I also wonder if I am being unfairly so as I do not know what the truth of the situation that I'm seeing is. I mean I think I am not that far off, but I am trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt. That said, I have friends, who have flat out told me about how they work the system. Not welfare, but stuff like unemployment and such. Different story, but my point is that there are folks that work the system (there always are) and I am sick of paying the cost that allows them to do so.
I agree about the lack of realization that "freedom is a fruit that is raised and nurtured". People today seem to have the mindset that they are owed something.
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I am being judgemental, but I also wonder if I am being unfairly so as I do not know what the truth of the situation that I'm seeing is. I mean I think I am not that far off, but I am trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt. That said, I have friends, who have flat out told me about how they work the system. Not welfare, but stuff like unemployment and such. Different story, but my point is that there are folks that work the system (there always are) and I am sick of paying the cost that allows them to do so.
I agree about the lack of realization that "freedom is a fruit that is raised and nurtured". People today seem to have the mindset that they are owed something.
They fail to realize that the "system" is made up of taxpayers like you and I. I used to be naive to think that this system had some sort of magical pot o' money that we can all tap into. As I got older and more responsibilities were being put on my plate - I realize that things aren't free. I guess some people never grew up or are so selfish and naive to take from this community pot without putting back.
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They fail to realize that the "system" is made up of taxpayers like you and I. I used to be naive to think that this system had some sort of magical pot o' money that we can all tap into. As I got older and more responsibilities were being put on my plate - I realize that things aren't free. I guess some people never grew up or are so selfish and naive to take from this community pot without putting back.
Exactly. I think it’s easy to feel/think that a more socialist system is good when you’re younger. You haven’t paid into the system yet, or not much. My opinion that’s a big reason why the “Feel the Bern” thing is so popular with college aged to about mid-20s.
I had a discussion about “free college” with one of my best friends younger brother. He felt free college was a good idea for two reasons. It would benefit his young kids as well as he felt that if that program was available when he finished HS that he could have benefited since it would open up more opportunities for those like him that didn’t have the grades or couldn’t afford it. I saw the benefit, but then I asked about who would pay for it. He basically said he’d take advantage of the benefit being offered with no thought about the rest. Money must grow on trees...
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The reason why healthcare is so expensive and why it's given to poor people is our philosophy that all life is precious and we spare no expense for it. We are willing to spend the most for the best care and it runs counter to what we normally do in life which is picking the best value balancing price and effectiveness. If given the choice would you spend $20,000 for a drug that has a 70% chance of saving your life, or $100,000 for one that is 90%? You'd do everything you can to get the $100,000 option. When a new more effective (and more expensive) treatment becomes available the old less effective option is discarded where it otherwise would have been a value option. There's also less competition with the supply/demand aspects.
Same carries over to the poor. Majority of people would want to support the poor with some level of healthcare. Might be worthwhile to setup care clinics for the poor with the value proposition where they get a lower quality of care but for a much cheaper price. Perhaps setup cheaper medical schools where they train physicians on minimal care options. Keep them out of the ERs and save the better care for those that work hard for it.
I think one thing to consider is inequality in terms of social stability. Not to say we must all be equal but psychologists know that the more inequality there is the more unrest. We would be foolish not to consider the consequences of a destabilized society if too many people cannot get health care.
Perhaps the government could provide a certain minimum level of health care and people can purchase catastropich health care insurance for the big things. This might get us the best of both worlds. People will get basic coverage for little to no cost so they won't avoid doctors to save money and therefore many medical problems can be caught early and treated. This would make the catastropich insurance much more affordable and that way the taxpayers wouldn't have to pay for the big things either.
I am not employed. In a health care system so I don't speak from any inside authority but I do think there are a number of things that could reduce the cost of health care itself instead of just insurance.
1. Tort reform so doctor insurance is cheaper.
2. Simplify the system for new medical procedures and medicines to be tested and approved. I own stock in a small pharmacuetical company and they keep having to send the drug back from the FDA for so many new tests even though it contains two drugs already approved. I have. Been waiting for over 5 years to see any profit! They are designing abuse resistant opioid medications.
3. Don't tax health care. Why do we tax services and goods needed to save someone's life? This would have to be monitored for abuse of course but just a rough idea.
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I read somewhere about “historical evidence that shows the purpose of a middle class like in the US is crucial to maintaining a buffer between those who hold most of the nation’s wealth and those who possess very little of it”. Think that applies to the US healthcare system.
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I think we will reach a point where we can be judgemental. Especially since we are paying for it. People enjoy freedom. The problem is that they don't realize that freedom is a fruit that is raised and nurtured. Whether from past generations or from people of the current who remain unseen by those enjoying it.
I will admit that I am judgemental here as well but for me the exception with medical care is that people don't seem to see the long term consequences well do the threat of risk later is not seriously considered. So if we threatened a poor person with bad eating habits that we won't cover their future diabetes it would not be statistically effective. As opposed to things with immediate consequences, this is very common in teaching kids and young people lessons.
For systems like food stamps I am highly critical because they directly enable bad behavior and they involve much more immediate consequences that can be leveraged to teach people lessons. I think food stamps should only cover fresh fruits, vegies, and milk/ cheese if anything at all.
I do think a new system would have to have incentives engineered into the structure. I don't know exactly what incentives would be effective or not though. Maybe somehow the system has to make people recognize the value and sacrifice that goes into such a system. They have to put in something into it themselves. Maybe make a volunteer requirement if they are in the class where they don't pay taxes?
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I will admit that I am judgemental here as well but for me the exception with medical care is that people don't seem to see the long term consequences well do the threat of risk later is not seriously considered. So if we threatened a poor person with bad eating habits that we won't cover their future diabetes it would not be statistically effective. As opposed to things with immediate consequences, this is very common in teaching kids and young people lessons.
For systems like food stamps I am highly critical because they directly enable bad behavior and they involve much more immediate consequences that can be leveraged to teach people lessons. I think food stamps should only cover fresh fruits, vegies, and milk/ cheese if anything at all.
I do think a new system would have to have incentives engineered into the structure. I don't know exactly what incentives would be effective or not though. Maybe somehow the system has to make people recognize the value and sacrifice that goes into such a system. They have to put in something into it themselves. Maybe make a volunteer requirement if they are in the class where they don't pay taxes?
I like the idea that recognizes the value and sacrifice. For me, that’s at root of much of my objections about the system. I believe I value and sacrifice for those that couldn’t be bothered.
For EBT, I say have a list of qualified foods. I believe come states have that. Basics and nutritious. No stuff like crab legs, candy, etc. there are some will say that that is demeaning to the folks that need the benefit. Well, shouldn’t those that pay into the system have a say? I also am all for drug testing for EBT. Yes, I understand that those with substance abuse problems are a different case and still need help. But even then, no real consequences to that life choice. I do feel for those that got hooked on pain meds due to stuff like back pain and legit reasons. But again, to many in that situation on their own doing. At least in my opinion.
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I like the idea that recognizes the value and sacrifice. For me, that’s at root of much of my objections about the system. I believe I value and sacrifice for those that couldn’t be bothered.
For EBT, I say have a list of qualified foods. I believe come states have that. Basics and nutritious. No stuff like crab legs, candy, etc. there are some will say that that is demeaning to the folks that need the benefit. Well, shouldn’t those that pay into the system have a say? I also am all for drug testing for EBT. Yes, I understand that those with substance abuse problems are a different case and still need help. But even then, no real consequences to that life choice. I do feel for those that got hooked on pain meds due to stuff like back pain and legit reasons. But again, to many in that situation on their own doing. At least in my opinion.
Get rid of EBT. Replace it with government ham, cheese, rice, and beans.
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Get rid of EBT. Replace it with government ham, cheese, rice, and beans.
what?!