I agree. You shouldn't pay for my kids education.
So who will pay for free healthcare?

The same people that pay for other socialized programs such as rubbish pickup, public schools, public parks, police, fired firghters, ambulance services, prisons,  etc etc etc.  Even then, if you have HMSA and I have HMSA then we are both paying into a pool of money and I may end up paying for your kids healthcare.

I would personally cut certain other programs to pehy for/help pay for universal health care. Food stamps for starters and some other social programs which don't have the same need and circumstances as health care. I would disolve the VA and Medicare and reogranize it into Medicaid or just start from scratch. A lot of money is wasted in having veteran care separate from regular health care systems. My first priority would be to figure out how to make health care cheaper, then we figure out how to get it to all.

But here again, you are paying for other people's healthcare when you go to a hospital because they have to spread the costs of the patients who are unable to afford the bill.  Don't forget that there are social benefits to various social programs that are not directly seen.

The same people that pay for other socialized programs such as rubbish pickup, public schools, public parks, police, fired firghters, ambulance services, prisons,  etc etc etc.  Even then, if you have HMSA and I have HMSA then we are both paying into a pool of money and I may end up paying for your kids healthcare.

I would personally cut certain other programs to pehy for/help pay for universal health care. Food stamps for starters and some other social programs which don't have the same need and circumstances as health care. I would disolve the VA and Medicare and reogranize it into Medicaid or just start from scratch. A lot of money is wasted in having veteran care separate from regular health care systems. My first priority would be to figure out how to make health care cheaper, then we figure out how to get it to all.

But here again, you are paying for other people's healthcare when you go to a hospital because they have to spread the costs of the patients who are unable to afford the bill.  Don't forget that there are social benefits to various social programs that are not directly seen.

We still pay into healthcare for those of that work - so it's not free
But I can see consolidating healthcare may  work. I don't trust government as the administrator of this large fund though.

We still pay into healthcare for those of that work - so it's not free
But I can see consolidating healthcare may  work. I don't trust government as the administrator of this large fund though.

I don't think I would place the entire thing in the hands of the government. I would try to keep as much privatization as possible.

What I am absolutely for is subsidized health care for anyone under 18 because a minor should not have to suffer for the faults of their parents.

I don't think I would place the entire thing in the hands of the government. I would try to keep as much privatization as possible.

What I am absolutely for is subsidized health care for anyone under 18 because a minor should not have to suffer for the faults of their parents.

I agree

We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world because of the private insurance industry scam that Nixon and Kissinger started back in the 70's. This isn't about doctors making a living, but executives making a killing. We are conditioned to swallow outrageous premium increases and get nothing in return every time some multi billion dollar marketing department cries crocodile tears about expenses going up. Nobody questions why a band-aid costs $100 while you can literally walk to the store and buy a whole box for next to nothing.

"That's just the way it is, and to do it any other way would be Socialist and evil" they say. Thinking for yourself is difficult after all, and they depend on intellectual laziness to continue the scam.

And then there's the question of what to do with the poor and mentally ill. The whole notion that people who fall through the cracks are somehow unworthy and deserve suffering and early death is sick and self destructive. Without public health there is no economy. Usually the people who push that extreme ideology and complain about "welfare queens" the loudest have no problem accepting benefits from the government when it's their turn to belly up to the trough.

Their ideology can best be described as "Socialism for me, law of the jungle capitalism for everyone else."

We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world because of the private insurance industry scam that Nixon and Kissinger started back in the 70's. This isn't about doctors making a living, but executives making a killing. We are conditioned to swallow outrageous premium increases and get nothing in return every time some multi billion dollar marketing department cries crocodile tears about expenses going up. Nobody questions why a band-aid costs $100 while you can literally walk to the store and buy a whole box for next to nothing.

"That's just the way it is, and to do it any other way would be Socialist and evil" they say. Thinking for yourself is difficult after all, and they depend on intellectual laziness to continue the scam.

And then there's the question of what to do with the poor and mentally ill. The whole notion that people who fall through the cracks are somehow unworthy and deserve suffering and early death is sick and self destructive. Without public health there is no economy. Usually the people who push that extreme ideology and complain about "welfare queens" the loudest have no problem accepting benefits from the government when it's their turn to belly up to the trough.

Their ideology can best be described as "Socialism for me, law of the jungle capitalism for everyone else."

There's that and there's also a LOT of waste in the health care "industry".  Industry being a key word.  Yeah, some of the waste is for good reasons, like importance of sanitary conditions.  But lots of products get pushed for the bottom line as opposed to being the best product for the application. 

The poor and mentally ill is a tough one.  I just know that I am tired of paying for the bad decisions of others, and that includes healthcare and other welfare programs.  I believe welfare benefits are needed in our society, but like the healthcare system, I see so much blatant abuse of it.  Both abuse by those who use the healthcare system (patients) as well as those who manipulate the healthcare system. 

I just know that I am tired of paying for the bad decisions of others...

Health care is one of the single largest factors in people declaring bankruptcy. In other words they made all the right choices but still lost everything. It's not like building a vacation home on the side of an active volcano. These were normal hard working people trying to do the best they can, but suddenly they were thrown out onto the street because they got hit and run by a drunk driver or one of their kids got cancer.

Before they were part of the productive economy and now they are on welfare thanks to corporate greed and political bribery.

Health care is one of the single largest factors in people declaring bankruptcy. In other words they made all the right choices but still lost everything. It's not like building a vacation home on the side of an active volcano. These were normal hard working people trying to do the best they can, but suddenly they were thrown out onto the street because they got hit and run by a drunk driver or one of their kids got cancer.

Before they were part of the productive economy and now they are on welfare thanks to corporate greed and political bribery.

Not the situation I had in mind, though I have heard many cases like that. 

There are all types of situations, but the most damaging ones are where productive people are unnecessarily taken out of the economy. It's what is known as an Externalized Cost, which means nobody figures it into the larger economic picture. Taking externalized costs into consideration would likely blow the whole Heathcare Spending = 18% GDP right out of the water, because the economic damage that the policies inflict would wipe out any gains at least twice over.

There are all types of situations, but the most damaging ones are where productive people are unnecessarily taken out of the economy. It's what is known as an Externalized Cost, which means nobody figures it into the larger economic picture. Taking externalized costs into consideration would likely blow the whole Heathcare Spending = 18% GDP right out of the water, because the economic damage that the policies inflict would wipe out any gains at least twice over.

I was referring to situations where folks continually make bad decisions on their health and end up needing continued treatment, which costs $$$.  I mean it's someone's choice to eat all the sweets that they want, develop diabetes and eventually need dialysis and stuff.  But I've personally seen many cases where the healthcare for those folks is picked up by, well, not them. . .

I was referring to situations where folks continually make bad decisions on their health and end up needing continued treatment, which costs $$$.  I mean it's someone's choice to eat all the sweets that they want, develop diabetes and eventually need dialysis and stuff.  But I've personally seen many cases where the healthcare for those folks is picked up by, well, not them. . .

I think one aim of socialized Healthcare is that some of that would be prevented by early intervention. Those who cannot afford to go to the doctor will skip seeking medical treatment because an out-of-pocket cost for a single visit might be a hundred fifty bucks. Then the problem is exacerbated and they end up in the emergency room sometime later where we all pick up the tab. Education and regular check-ups can go a long way towards catching or preventing many lifestyle-related sicknesses.

I think one aim of socialized Healthcare is that some of that would be prevented by early intervention. Those who cannot afford to go to the doctor will skip seeking medical treatment because an out-of-pocket cost for a single visit might be a hundred fifty bucks. Then the problem is exacerbated and they end up in the emergency room sometime later where we all pick up the tab. Education and regular check-ups can go a long way towards catching or preventing many lifestyle-related sicknesses.

My example has nothing to do with affordability of care.  Those at issue here aren't paying for their care.  The issue is that they had a choice whether or not to change their diet/behavior and they didn't.  No big deal to them as they don't suffer financially from that poor decision.  If they paid for the resulting healthcare, whatever.  Eat whatever you want.  It's when I have to pay for it. . .

We have the highest healthcare costs and some of the worst outcomes in the developed world...because of the private insurance industry scam

Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.

I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).

Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.

Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.

I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).

Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.

I looked at it that way too. Strongest survive.

My example has nothing to do with affordability of care.  Those at issue here aren't paying for their care.  The issue is that they had a choice whether or not to change their diet/behavior and they didn't.  No big deal to them as they don't suffer financially from that poor decision.  If they paid for the resulting healthcare, whatever.  Eat whatever you want.  It's when I have to pay for it. . .

I understand your logic but where health care differs from general cause and effect consequences is that in health care the consequences are not always immediate so the lesson isn't as effective. Now if you didn't wear safet glasses and you get something in your eye while working with power tools the lesson is immediate and more effective. Diabetes though is not immediate so the consequence is less tangible at the time they make their choices. Humans by nature just aren't that great with foresight.  So if you tell someone "ok, when you get diabetes 20 years from now we won't cover you" it just isn't a very good deterrent because it isn't that tangible. Teenagers especially have trouble processing these types of decisions.

That is ome reason why I would do away with certain other aid programs like food stamps because that is a much more immediate consequence and is very tangible. Waste money on a luxury and you go hungry.

A lot of health care problems are preventable with good diet and exercise but a lot aren't and sometimes those are the most expensive. Many forms of cancer for example, accidents where someone suffers serious trauma, etc. 

I looked at it that way too. Strongest survive.

But where is our strength. In our humanity or our cold hearted calculation.

Exactly, health care in the US is screwed up. Until they fix it so that we pay similar prices to other countries, healthcare should not be provided or distributed for "free" as the burden is too great. Not even to children or the elderly. Health insurance should be optional and Obamacare is crap. This is the only way to protect ourselves and give customers the power to remove the corruption in the health insurance industry.

I'm not necessarily opposed to providing "free" public education as we currently do, even free housing and perhaps basic food and needs (not candies and junk foods). Actually now that I think about it, providing food and shelter should arguably come before education, which we offer in part so that kids can be brainwashed with the political beliefs that education "professors" favor (not necessarily the same as what teachers themselves believe).

Why do homeless people need health insurance. If they get sick and can't recover, let them die. Less burden on society in the end. Even in our current system, poor working people who can't afford expensive cancer treatments or surgeries (that may not work) must choose to die. If a homeless person catches a cold and dies, good riddance. If he didn't die then the doctor was unnecessary.

 I would not let children suffer for the lack of effort on behalf of the poor choices of their parents, telling them "sorry your parents are poor so we are going to let you die for a treatable disease because we don't want to shoulder that burden. Plus this way we are culling the herd"

But where is our strength. In our humanity or our cold hearted calculation.

I know. I was watching the Discovery Channel and a lion ate an adolescent gazelle. Looking at the way nature operates there is no humanity or compassion - just a matter of survival and unfortunately the weak don't survive.
But we are humans who have compassion. We wouldn't do those things. Ironically, I'm eating a burger

When I was a kid my parents didn't buy me any toys or garbage pail kids. I suffered greatly because of my parents.

Society isn't obligated to provide kids with the highest standards for free. You can live without a doctor. Plenty of working adults live without doctors. Other working adults see doctors too often, every time they sneeze or stub their toe, and health insurance makes me pay for their stupidity. I don't want to pay for someone else's kid with cancer when I wouldn't even be able to afford the same treatment for myself. If our health system were less corrupt and the costs affordable, certain limited expenditures could be a consideration, but right now it should be out of the question.

Some states expanded medicare/medicaid to cover everyone, not just the traditional aged or poor patients. It was in response to the abysmal ACA.

I've read some very positive things from people who needed coverage for existing conditions that were very expensive to treat.  Some went as far as moving to other states to qualify and use those programs.



One of the biggest impediments to national healthcare solutions is the state-by-state regulatory nightmare. States don't allow insurers to sell policies unless they meet all the requirements of that state. Unless they are certified and licensed, they are barred from selling there.

That nightmare kills competition, which greatly drives up prices. What corporate exec wouldn't want their state to create barriers to new competition?