2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: macsak on March 18, 2020, 03:20:09 PM
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:'(
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F
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Honolulu Mayor Caldwell closes all city parks and facilities through April 30.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/03/18/breaking-news/watch-live-honolulu-mayor-kirk-caldwell-announces-the-latest-closures-on-oahu/
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I have some testing to do. WTF!!!!! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:
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Time to go hunting ;)
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Time to go to Schofield I guess! ;)
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Wonder if that would be considered limiting your right to keep and bear arms? Since this is pretty much the only public place where a citizen on Oahu can publicly keep and bear their arms.
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Wonder if that would be considered limiting your right to keep and bear arms? Since this is pretty much the only public place where a citizen on Oahu can publicly keep and bear their arms.
They don't care...
It's a State Emergency and they have that power. Your rights don't matter now
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
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Wonder if that would be considered limiting your right to keep and bear arms? Since this is pretty much the only public place where a citizen on Oahu can publicly keep and bear their arms.
U mean further limiting.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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But I just got more ammo :-\
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They don't care...
It's a State Emergency and they have that power. Your rights don't matter now
Waddaya mean "now"?
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Damnit...now this REALLY sucks :shake:
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Time to go hunting ;)
....
Yes
Now I have no excuse for not painting the house and cleaning up my clutter.
Also have time to cast bullets.
No need to hoard ammo and reloading stuff now. :shake: :rofl:
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....
Yes
Now I have no excuse for not painting the house and cleaning up my clutter.
Also have time to cast bullets.
No need to hoard ammo and reloading stuff now. :shake: :rofl:
heads
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Time to go hunting ;)
I was thinking this too initially, but then quickly realized that means everyone else is thinking the same thing. Heavy pressure from the dog guys drives them nocturnal, which makes it more like hiking with an awkward heavy chunk of metal.
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Is the Ewa Forest Reserve (Waimano section Manana trail) still open for hunting?
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From Public Information Officer Nathan Serota
Honolulu Dept of Parks and Recreation
Given the updated guidelines from the CDC concerning COVID-19 (Coronavirus), all City facilities
will be closed to public gatherings through April 30. This includes the closure of:
- City parks and outdoor park amenities including pools, courts, and fields
- City gyms and indoor facilities, including comfort stations
- Honolulu Botanical Gardens
- City campgrounds
- Hanauma Bay Nature Preserve
- Koko Head Shooting Complex
This will also result in the suspension of classes, programs, and events both organized by the Honolulu
Department of Parks and Recreation or permitted to other organizations. This includes the 93rd Annual
Lei Day Celebration.
We hope that these measures will help to mitigate the spread of the Coronavirus as we realize the CDC
guidelines of social distancing and avoiding large gatherings. That means staying 6 feet away from other
people and avoiding crowds of 10 people or more. Please be safe, stay healthy, and take care. Mahalo for
your patience and understanding.
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Beach is still open. New northwest swell tomorrow and good wind conditions. Hopefully the crowds will be staying home guarding their toilet paper, but I doubt it.
Update:
Looks like no lifeguards though. They are standing down because the C&C wont buy them masks and gloves.
https://www.kitv.com/story/41916860/honolulu-lifeguard-towers-empty
Things are really getting weird!
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Beach is still open. New northwest swell tomorrow and good wind conditions. Hopefully the crowds will be staying home guarding their toilet paper, but I doubt it.
Update:
Looks like no lifeguards though. They are standing down because the C&C wont buy them masks and gloves.
https://www.kitv.com/story/41916860/honolulu-lifeguard-towers-empty
Things are really getting weird!
I guess they won't be administering mouth-to-mouth anytime soon. Imagine being pulled out of the water only to be left to die on the sand....
May be just as well they don't report for duty. No sense in paying "Not Risking My Life Guards".
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I made sure to go yesterday in case they did shut down the parks.
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/2020/03/18/range-report-march-18-2020/
We went to the Waipahu park today to shoot rockets until someone yelled at us the park was closed. Of course they didn't bother to tell the kids playing basketball at the time.
https://youtu.be/QuNN7v8Entc
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Wonder if that would be considered limiting your right to keep and bear arms? Since this is pretty much the only public place where a citizen on Oahu can publicly keep and bear their arms.
Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.
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Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.
I agree with this. However the government does make it difficult for people and businesses to construct their own range which is unconstitutional. Also they should allow for shooting practice on public lands where possible, like they do in other states.
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Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.
The law looks for reasons to make life difficult for gun owners. Like how CA wants to ban any lead in heads on public ranges. Which would be almost all ammo because they all have lead cores. This would mean that gun owners will have to spend way more $ on zero lead rounds. Less range users mean less gun buyers because it cost too much to shoot. And they use the environment to justify it. They're looking for a reason.
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The law looks for reasons to make life difficult for gun owners. Like how CA wants to ban any lead in heads on public ranges. Which would be almost all ammo because they all have lead cores. This would mean that gun owners will have to spend way more $ on zero lead rounds. Less range users mean less gun buyers because it cost too much to shoot. And they use the environment to justify it. They're looking for a reason.
Most all my Russian and Chinese 7.62X39 is steel core.
No lead.
Hawaiian Democrats probably will out law it calling it "armor piercing".
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Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.
I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear....
Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu?
Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business- may or may not be shut down...
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I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear....
Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu?
Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business- may or may not be shut down...
I just can't pass this up.
Our Mayor is as dumb as a post in some things.
but he was Civil defense guy for years.
Most of the Big Island is open for business.
At least the parts I care about.
Fuel, beer, food.
Who calls the cops or even talks to them?
Paid my insurance bills today.
I'm going to the dump tomorrow.
I'll probably help someone un-load and clean up.
This whole thing is BS.
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Doubtful, it would be a hard case to make. Nothin in the constitution says the government has to provide a place to shoot. Plus it would be hard to justify closing all parks except ours.
There was a recent 7th Circuit (federal court of appeals) decision regarding the ban of public ranges and the implications of the Second Amendment. Ezell v. City of Chicago, 651 F.3d 684 (7th Cir. 2011).
https://casetext.com/case/ezell-v-city-of-chicago
It's an interesting read. In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.
I'm pretty bummed that Caldwell decided to close the parks, municipal golf courses, and KHSC. although i would love it if there was a constitutional right to play golf on sunday mornings (which i have been doing), I believe that courts will agree that there is a constitutional right to safely and legally shoot firearms (at the very least, in a designated area). therefore, by closing KHSC and not providing a strong argument that the closure of this facility is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest, the city is essentially infringing on that Second Amendment right.
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It's an interesting read. In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.
Some of the analyses of "well regulated" I have read would support the proficiency theme.
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Some of the analyses of "well regulated" I have read would support the proficiency theme.
i think the court is focusing more on the "bear" part of the Second Amendment ("...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed").
here is an excerpt from the 2011 Ezell case:
The plaintiffs challenge only the City's ban on firing ranges, so our first question is whether range training is categorically unprotected by the sized in both cases that the "central component" of the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for defense of self, family, and home. Heller, 554 U.S. at 599, 128 S.Ct. 2783; McDonald, 130 S.Ct. at 3048. The right to possess firearms for protection implies a corresponding right to acquire and maintain proficiency in their use; the core right wouldn't mean much without the training and practice that make it effective. Several passages in Heller support this understanding. Examining post-Civil War legal commentaries to confirm the founding-era "individual right" understanding of the Second Amendment, the Court quoted at length from the "massively popular 1868 Treatise on Constitutional Limitations" by judge and professor Thomas Cooley: "[T]o bear arms implies something more than the mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them . . .; it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order." 554 U.S. at 616, 617-18, 128 S.Ct. 2783 (internal quotation marks omitted); see also id. at 619, 128 S.Ct. 2783 ("`No doubt, a citizen who keeps a gun or pistol under judicious precautions, practices in safe places the use of it, and in due time teaches his sons to do the same, exercises his individual right.'" (quoting BENJAMIN VAUGHAN ABBOTT, JUDGE AND JURY: A POPULAR EXPLANATION OF THE LEADING TOPICS IN THE LAW OF THE LAND 333 (1880))).
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Guess I'll be saving ammo. . . :(
State championships were this weekend. There were a number of sponsored shooters coming in from the mainland to shoot too.
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I do not condone or do such behaviors or know anyone who does such behaviors. But by right if you have a valid hunting license you are allowed to bring a rifle and pistol (ALL hunting rules shall be enforced) into a valid hunting zone.
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I didn't say shoot, I said keep and bear....
Any other public place where that is allowed on Oahu?
Police station- shut down
Gun store or show- shut down
Place of business- may or may not be shut down...
Meant to tag you for the above post
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Meant to tag you for the above post
Hunting "tag"? ??? :o
EEFishing "tag"? ;)
:rofl:
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There was a recent 7th Circuit (federal court of appeals) decision regarding the ban of public ranges and the implications of the Second Amendment. Ezell v. City of Chicago, 651 F.3d 684 (7th Cir. 2011).
https://casetext.com/case/ezell-v-city-of-chicago
It's an interesting read. In the decision, the Court explains that the Second Amendment encompasses the right to be proficient in the use of firearms, which can be accomplished at a sanctioned range.
I'm pretty bummed that Caldwell decided to close the parks, municipal golf courses, and KHSC. although i would love it if there was a constitutional right to play golf on sunday mornings (which i have been doing), I believe that courts will agree that there is a constitutional right to safely and legally shoot firearms (at the very least, in a designated area). therefore, by closing KHSC and not providing a strong argument that the closure of this facility is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest, the city is essentially infringing on that Second Amendment right.
Interesting, I will have to read that case. I would agree that if the government managed to ban all ranges then it would be infringing on the 2nd amendment. I just don't think a city/state owned and staffed park is mandated by the 2nd amendment. Plus these things are not a hard unbreakable rule, there would certainly be allowances for reasonable suspensions of the park.
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Interesting, I will have to read that case. I would agree that if the government managed to ban all ranges then it would be infringing on the 2nd amendment. I just don't think a city/state owned and staffed park is mandated by the 2nd amendment. Plus these things are not a hard unbreakable rule, there would certainly be allowances for reasonable suspensions of the park.
i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.
this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR). One of those calibers is 223 Rem. A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy. This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ. arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols. also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"
therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.
in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights. i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand. right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment. regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19. the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).
like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.
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i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.
this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR). One of those calibers is 223 Rem. A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy. This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ. arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols. also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"
therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.
in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights. i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand. right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment. regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19. the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).
like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.
Someone is not essential and working from home :rofl:
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i imagine that this is an infringement on the Second Amendment because of the laws that we have in HI and also due to the nature of the C&C of Honolulu and its jurisdiction over the entire island of Oahu.
this is how i see it:
- it is technically illegal to discharge a firearm within a populated area in Hawaii
- the only place that you can legally discharge a firearm is at designated hunting areas and designated ranges (indoor ranges)
- I believe the indoor ranges require a membership to shoot there and they place other restrictions on what can and cannot be done
- it is technically illegal to "hunt" in HI with certain calibers because they are below the 1200 ft lbs minimum muzzle energy (pursuant HAR). One of those calibers is 223 Rem. A 223 Rem 55gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps out of a 16" barreled AR-15 is below the minimum muzzle energy. This means that it is illegal for me to plink in designated hunting areas with my 16" barreled AR-15 with the commonly used 55gr FMJ. arguably, this is one of the most common (if not the most common) configurations of the AR-15, which is also the most common centerfire rifle in america.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with FMJs so i won't be able to shoot my AK or most of my ARs.
- it is also illegal to "hunt" with a 9mm handgun, which means i won't be able to shoot most of my semiauto pistols. also, the case length of a 45 ACP does not meet the minimum "hunting" case length required by HAR.
- rimfire guns such as the 22LR are also prohibited for "hunting"
therefore, if the city does not provide a place to safely maintain proficiency with common legal firearms, then it is an infringement on the Second Amendment right of the residents of Oahu.
in response to your "reasonable suspensions" comment, a court will not look at whether an infringement is "reasonable" when it relates to important constitutional rights. i think that this is something that a lot of people don't really understand. right now the courts have not decided on whether to apply an intermediate scrutiny or strict scrutiny analysis to reviewing cases related to infringements on the Second Amendment. regardless of which scrutiny analysis the court decides to go with, there is little justification for the government to close down the range without a finding that the range would promote a greater spread of COVID-19. the benches are pretty damn far apart, i usually don't give hugs to everyone i see at the range, and people mostly keep their hands to themselves (not touching other people's stuff).
like i said, i would love to make the same argument for the re-opening the municipal golf courses, but maintaining proficiency in golfing is not a protected constitutional right.
Good write up for people to refer to. One thing to note is. Hunting on private land is legal and does not stipulate caliber or ft lb of energy. But safety zones still apply, which means that you cant discharge a firearm within 50 yards from a building or paved road. Which is rare in a residential area lol. Also, even though its legal, discharging a centerfire cartridge within a couple hundred yards of people is probably not the smartest, even though technically not illegal.
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I was just watching a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQYUpp0pgc) and Jared mentioned that GOA (Gun Owners of America) wrote a letter to the White House and the Trump Administration just designated the Firearms Industry and anything related (gun ranges) as essential so gun stores etc. can remain open. With that said will Caldwell open up Kokohead Shooting Range?
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I think opening up any public place where a lot of people together is bad right now. The shooting complex is one of the most used City parks.
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I was just watching a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQYUpp0pgc) and Jared mentioned that GOA (Gun Owners of America) wrote a letter to the White House and the Trump Administration just designated the Firearms Industry and anything related (gun ranges) as essential so gun stores etc. can remain open. With that said will Caldwell open up Kokohead Shooting Range?
Does this help?
https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce
Federal guidance for “essential workforce” lists range staff.
“Workers supporting the operation of firearm or ammunition product manufacturers, retailers, importers, distributors, and shooting ranges.”
So how is it that the KHSC staff are suggested as “essential” but the mayor is unwilling to open the range that they work at? This makes no sense.
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Does this help?
https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce
Federal guidance for “essential workforce” lists range staff.
“Workers supporting the operation of firearm or ammunition product manufacturers, retailers, importers, distributors, and shooting ranges.”
So how is it that the KHSC staff are suggested as “essential” but the mayor is unwilling to open the range that they work at? This makes no sense.
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I saw that but it didn't sink in. Thanks for pointing that out.
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I saw that but it didn't sink in. Thanks for pointing that out.
Perhaps that only applies to private, commercial ranges and not municipal ones? It's in a list with "firearm or ammunition product manufacturers, retailers, importers, distributors" -- all commercial entities.
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Saw at least one local gun range is open. A friend's ex posted pics and video of her shooting at a nice indoor range with her "boo's new handgun". When she was with my buddy, she and her friend kept bugging me to take them shooting, but they were never usually off when I went.
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Although I believe these closures, check points, and restrictions of movement is unconstitutional, I think it's time to take on personal responsibility and If not completely necessary, just stay home. I am concerned not for myself, but others who could really get ill.
Personal choice is freedom.
What is sad about this whole situation is that others don't, can't, or want to make that responsible personal choice.
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Although I believe these closures, check points, and restrictions of movement is unconstitutional, I think it's time to take on personal responsibility and If not completely necessary, just stay home. I am concerned not for myself, but others who could really get ill.
Personal choice is freedom.
What is sad about this whole situation is that others don't, can't, or want to make that responsible personal choice.
There are many who believe if the gov't says it's safe to ride the subway and go to a parade, then it must be true. Same sheeple who watch the MSM and believe the booming economy was bad and controlling our borders is waycist.
They've been taught to trust the "system". They don't get that every system was created by fallible, often ideologically flawed, humans.
The epicenter of CV-19 is New York. I wonder why?
https://youtu.be/tNflR2Ia7Hc
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Although I believe these closures, check points, and restrictions of movement is unconstitutional, I think it's time to take on personal responsibility and If not completely necessary, just stay home. I am concerned not for myself, but others who could really get ill.
Personal choice is freedom.
What is sad about this whole situation is that others don't, can't, or want to make that responsible personal choice.
Yup. Just came back from a quick run to the office and taking care of some stuff for family. Saw lots of closed businesses, but also a bunch of folks carrying on in their “ainokea, I do wat I like” way of living.
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Yup. Just came back from a quick run to the office and taking care of some stuff for family. Saw lots of closed businesses, but also a bunch of folks carrying on in their “ainokea, I do wat I like” way of living.
fools rush in where wise men never go...... >:(
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My understanding is that X-ring and such are allowed to stay open, but not KHSC because it's a park and no exceptions.
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My understanding is that X-ring and such are allowed to stay open, but not KHSC because it's a park and no exceptions.
Hawaii loves gun owners. Why else would they want to take such drastic measures to keep us all safe from infection?
Thanks, Gov. Ige! :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
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fools rush in where wise men never go angels fear to tread..... >:(
FIFY. :geekdanc:
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There are many who believe if the gov't says it's safe to ride the subway and go to a parade, then it must be true. Same sheeple who watch the MSM and believe the booming economy was bad and controlling our borders is waycist.
They've been taught to trust the "system". They don't get that every system was created by fallible, often ideologically flawed, humans.
The epicenter of CV-19 is New York. I wonder why?
https://youtu.be/tNflR2Ia7Hc
Dude they also told us not to wear masks ;) ;) ;)
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Dude they also told us not to wear masks ;) ;) ;)
They never said to not wear masks.
They said wearing masks are not as effective as many believe.
More fake news?
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They never said to not wear masks.
They said wearing masks are not as effective as many believe.
More fake news?
I might not have read or seen the news you did but from what I got through the news that I did see, it was tantamount to saying you should only wear a mask if you are sick, and not to wear one if you are not sick.
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I might not have read or seen the news you did but from what I got through the news that I did see, it was tantamount to saying you should only wear a mask if you are sick, and not to wear one if you are not sick.
"Tantamount": equivalent in seriousness to; virtually the same as.
You'll have to post the specific quotes rather than your interpretation.
Here's what I've read/heard: "The government does not recommend it."
That's different than " Do not to wear one".
CDC guidance on masks remains under development, the federal official said. The official said the
new guidance would make clear that the general public should not use medical masks — including
surgical and N95 masks — that are in desperately short supply and needed by health-care workers.
Instead, the recommendation under consideration calls for using do-it-yourself cloth coverings,
according to a second official who shared that thinking on a personal Facebook account. It would
be a way to help “flatten the curve,” the official noted.
Such DIY cloth masks would potentially lower the risk that the wearer, if infected, would transmit the
virus to other people. Current CDC guidance is that healthy people don’t need masks or face coverings.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/cdc-considering-recommending-general-public-wear-face-coverings-in-public/2020/03/30/6a3e495c-7280-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html
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Agree they did not say DO NOT WEAR A MASK but it is HIGHLY DISCOURAGED.
https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/
The simplicity of those recommendations is likely unsettling to people anxious to do more to protect themselves, so it’s no surprise that face masks are in short supply—despite the CDC specifically not recommending them for healthy people trying to protect against COVID-19. “It seems kind of intuitively obvious that if you put something—whether it’s a scarf or a mask—in front of your nose and mouth, that will filter out some of these viruses that are floating around out there,” says Dr. William Schaffner, professor of medicine in the division of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. The only problem: that’s not effective against respiratory illnesses like the flu and COVID-19. If it were, “the CDC would have recommended it years ago,” he says. “It doesn’t, because it makes science-based recommendations.”
He didn't say "that's not highly effective." He said it's outright NOT effective.
Saying it is "science-based recommendations" doesn't mean it is actually scientific. Physics professors have already proved it DOES block such droplets PHYSICALLY.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/#2faede35676c
That one goes even further to scare people away from wearing them.
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“Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” In an interview with Fox & Friends, Adams said that wearing a mask can even increase your risk of getting the virus. “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.”
Don't use toothbrushes either because if you misuse them you can poke your eye out. And most people are too stupid right?
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They never said to not wear masks.
They said wearing masks are not as effective as many believe.
More fake news?
Anyway this was just a friendly jab at you because you mentioned "sheeple" who listen to MSM.
Don't listen to the MSM regarding masks.
They are VERY EFFECTIVE at preventing COVID-19 and other respiratory illnesses.
I emphasize this out of concern for the health of all members here, including yours. Do not trust the MSM or CDC on this.
The effectiveness of masks, and even of the validity of disinfection and reuse numerous times, has been scientifically proven by science experts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGHMU4iegLE&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UdtKssU7po&feature=youtu.be
Basically, what the MSM and CDC say are pure bullshit. One mask can be reused numerous times. A family only needs a few masks. A box of 50 masks can be for a whole bunch of people. The national shortage can be mitigated significantly but the MSM/CDC put out FAKE NEWS and exacerbate the whole crisis.
If you do not have 70% alcohol, then use 1% bleach to disinfect the masks.
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Be sure to air out the masks too 😂👍
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“Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” In an interview with Fox & Friends, Adams said that wearing a mask can even increase your risk of getting the virus. “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.”
Don't use toothbrushes either because if you misuse them you can poke your eye out. And most people are too stupid right?
False anaolgy.
Buying a mask takes scarce resources from those who really do need them and benefit from their use. The part about increasing risk by not learning to use a mask properly is also correct. No different than warning that buying a gun without the first clue on using one can increase the risk of someone getting hurt unintentionally.
Buying a toothbrush won't deprive anyone of a toothbrush, since not-quite-doctors give them away for free with each visit. :geekdanc:
The tweet comes during what has become a mask boom. With coronavirus popping up in the United States, some have
begun buying face masks as a form of protection, despite the likes of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
and Vice President Mike Pence saying they're unnecessary.
And, like Adams points out, if these masks run out, they won't be available to the medical professionals who are at the
highest risk for disease transmission.
Dr. William Schaffner, a preventive medicine professor at the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, told CNN the rush
to buy masks is a "psychological thing."
"The coronavirus is coming, and we feel rather helpless," he said Saturday. "By getting masks and wearing them, we move
the locus of control somewhat to ourselves."
Meanwhile, stores across the country have run out of masks. As for online shipments, many orders have been pushed back.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/face-masks-coronavirus-surgeon-general-trnd/index.html
That tweet is a month old. Since then, masks have been flowing to the places in need despite hoarders and profiteers buying up the previous stock from stores. There's still not enough for everyone who wants, but enough for everyone who needs apparently.
If you're trying to persuade people that wearing a mask is an effective method of staying uninfected by COVID-19, I'm not seeing the evidence. If you are trying to say everybody should wear the masks 24/7 to stop the spread from infected wearers, I'd say that's valid -- in theory. In practice, it's impossible. Not enough masks to have 326 million people supplied with enough spares to wear one time each to avoid mask-related contamination transfers.
Then there are the "geniuses" among us who just "know things". They will decide that wearing a mask will compensate for not washing as often or not keeping a 6' distance at all times. "I can stand in a crowd, because we all have masks and gloves." Masks are not 100% effective, so all other measures are still important to follow. However, you know people will rationalize and do what they want.
I have masks that are rated 99.9% effective down to 1 micron -- even for noxious gases thanks to carbon filtering. I still would not trust it to prevent infection. Only a hazmat suit and full face respirators would make me trust that my PPE will keep me safe.
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Handwashing is not 100% effective either.
In combination with hand washing, social distancing, and general hygiene, face masks help further reduce the risk of infecting oneself, and inadvertently infecting others (if one is an asymptomatic carrier).
The evidence is in countries that have social norms for wearing masks (as opposed to the USA which promotes the social norm NOT to wear a mask). Hong Kong, for example, has very low infection rates despite being right next to mainland China, and a porous border where numerous Chinese enter it daily. Taiwan, Japan, and even Korea, have kept the infections and deaths well under control. They also have ample experience fighting off SARS in 2003. All these places admonish people who don't wear masks. Some even have laws to make it mandatory to wear a mask.
That's more than enough real world evidence to show the efficacy of wearing masks.
If the authorities want to send the message that "wearing a mask is effective at protecting you, but we have a shortage, so you can decide to increase your risk while giving the masks to medical workers" then I am all in support of that statement. People should volunteer to offer up their own protection to protect others. This is altruism.
But it is disingenuous to give the impression to Americans that wearing a mask is just not effective. This is not altruism. It is deception.
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Handwashing is not 100% effective either.
In combination with hand washing, social distancing, and general hygiene, face masks help further reduce the risk of infecting oneself, and inadvertently infecting others (if one is an asymptomatic carrier).
The evidence is in countries that have social norms for wearing masks (as opposed to the USA which promotes the social norm NOT to wear a mask). Hong Kong, for example, has very low infection rates despite being right next to mainland China, and a porous border where numerous Chinese enter it daily. Taiwan, Japan, and even Korea, have kept the infections and deaths well under control. They also have ample experience fighting off SARS in 2003. All these places admonish people who don't wear masks. Some even have laws to make it mandatory to wear a mask.
That's more than enough real world evidence to show the efficacy of wearing masks.
If the authorities want to send the message that "wearing a mask is effective at protecting you, but we have a shortage, so you can decide to increase your risk while giving the masks to medical workers" then I am all in support of that statement. People should volunteer to offer up their own protection to protect others. This is altruism.
But it is disingenuous to give the impression to Americans that wearing a mask is just not effective. This is not altruism. It is deception.
It's naive to assign causation where there are more relevant variables at play other than a "social norm" of wearing masks.
Maybe it was Hong Kong's early adoption of sheltering in the home and disinfecting everything and everybody at an early stage than just wearing masks.
As a mysterious virus raced through Wuhan, China, 570 miles to the north, residents in Hong Kong acted on instinct.
They swaddled their faces in paper-thin masks and slathered on sanitizer, even on strangers, and obediently sheltered
indoors, some doing so before their government closed schools and universities and offices sent workers home. The new
coronavirus seemed to be contained by early March, with case numbers nearly flat and just four deaths, this despite a
shared border with mainland China and infections racing through South Korea, Japan, and Europe.
Epidemiologists and journalists lauded the Chinese territory for controlling the spread, and Hong Kongers emerged
from their tiny apartments to resume life. They headed back to work and the gym, even dined out for noodles and
dim sum, as they welcomed home residents and students who had been stuck overseas.
With most everyone’s guard down, the predator lashed back last week. Cases of Covid-19 surged.
Hong Kong logged a daily record of 48 new infections Saturday as travelers returned home, and as of Wednesday,
the city of 7.4 million had reported more than 400 cases. This week, the government ordered all residents back home,
and closed public sports facilities, museums, and libraries that had just reopened. What’s more, the city stopped
admitting visitors for two weeks. As an extra measure against socializing, the government demanded that bars stop
serving alcohol.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/26/coronavirus-hong-kong-resurgenece-holds-lesson-defeating-it-demands-persistence/
So, what changed? Did they stop wearing their masks, or did they stop isolating themselves (a form of social distancing)? I doubt their "social norm" was abandoned.
Hmmm.....
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so if we wear masks will the range open?
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so if we wear masks will the range open?
Nope. Nobody wants a bunch of people with loaded firearms running around wearing masks! :shake:
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:stopjack:
Alright, back to topic.
All the facts about masks were presented.