4 MOA?
Should have tried a Ruger Mini-14 if you wanted to see how bad .223 accuracy could be.
I mounted a scope to my stainless Ranch rifle .223 Mini-14, 30 or so years ago, but at 80 yards or so could not get a definable group to adjust the POI.
I really wanted to love that rifle, it was just so neat and cuddly.
4 MOA?
Should have tried a Ruger Mini-14 if you wanted to see how bad .223 accuracy could be.
I mounted a scope to my stainless Ranch rifle .223 Mini-14, 30 or so years ago, but at 80 yards or so could not get a definable group to adjust the POI.
I really wanted to love that rifle, it was just so neat and cuddly.
I think the AK has an odd caliber. Reminds me of the Penguin. A stubby, underpowered 30 cal. compared to an American 308WIN. I dont know why the AK doesnt have a last rnd bolt open.There are last round bolt lock/hold magazines. I’ve used them, but don’t own any myself. In my buddies’ guns that have them, they are pretty reliable.
There are last round bolt lock/hold magazines. I’ve used them, but don’t own any myself. In my buddies’ guns that have them, they are pretty reliable.learn something new. But wouldn't the bolt close once you remove the mag?
I wanted an AK not long after I got my first AR. I always wanted a milled Arsenal AK and eventually got one just prior to the craziness in 2013ish. My project AK is a stamped AK where mods and parts seems to be much more readily available. But def a fan of Arsenal AKs.
Triggers is one aspect of AR vs AK that is a big difference, at least for me. I have an ALG trigger in my project AK and while decent, I’d rather have an AR USGI trigger. I have Geissele in more of my ARs now, but not sure I would spend that kind of money for an AK trigger.
learn something new. But wouldn't the bolt close once you remove the mag?Yup, it does.
I think the AK has an odd caliber. Reminds me of the Penguin. A stubby, underpowered 30 cal. compared to an American 308WIN. I dont know why the AK doesnt have a last rnd bolt open.
Well, there is always the AR10/LR-308 choice in .308 AR format. Can be built to 8 lbs with a bit of care. A lot of 5.56 ARs go over that it seems.
If, however, I need more punch in the .30 caliber range, the AK is a better choice, of course.
In a survival situation, if I can have only one, I'll likely pick the AR.
Well, there is always the AR10/LR-308 choice in .308 AR format. Can be built to 8 lbs with a bit of care. A lot of 5.56 ARs go over that it seems.The AR that I shoot most often in classes/training is 7.6 lbs. My project AK is 8.2 lbs. Both not loaded. I have a mix of steel and polymer mags for the AK, and the steel mags fully loaded with 7.62x39 gets heavy. . . :(
After buying 2 ARs and building 2 more, I bought my first AK. I wanted to avoid the whole "not very accurate" problems. So I opted out of the cheaper brands/models.
Wound up with the Arsenal Saiga AK-47 SGL 21-61 purchased directly from Arsenal for $1100.
Fit and finish seems much better than the IO models I saw at the LGS. Got excellent reviews everywhere I checked. The feel is anything but "sloppy loose".
As for accuracy at 100 yds, I couldn't ask for anything better. Groupings give my ARs and Mosins a run for their money. :thumbsup:
I've been well-served by the "Buy once, cry once" slogan. Accurate, cheap, reliable. Pick any 2.
BTW, it has a stamped IZHMASH receiver. I also swapped the stock for the longer US/NATO version (came with the Warsaw version).
Borrowed pic from net:
(https://i.imgur.com/HuvShrd.png)
I like both platforms. I have more examples of each than I need. I am too old and beat up to go running around in the hills.Right there with ya.
When the zombie attack occurs I will just shelter in place. At close home defense distances, 1 moa or 4 moa makes no difference.
I also like the 545x39 but only in the ak platform.
I have the same Arsenal SGL21.
I'm not sure if its exactly the same as yours, but looks very similar to the pic. it is a great AK, and is worth more than any of my AR's. I have a PA red dot on it, and it shoots very accurate, better than a milspec AR, but I didn't do extensive testing, just from my limited experience. it is super reliable, never had a malfunction ever for the several years that I've had it, although I don't shoot it that much. also, I've never disassembled and cleaned the bolt and it still works great. a short description of this AK would be: super ultra reliable, good accuracy, very durable
I've also had a WASR but sold it. never had a problem with it either, but I didn't want 2 AK's and I like the Arsenal better so I sold the WASR
both are very reliable and durable.
I think a big reason why people say AK's are inaccurate is bc of the crappy iron sights that come with it. maybe with practice it gets better, but compared to a red dot the factory irons are not nearly as good, IMO
overall I like AR's better
I've built a few in different calibers, but mostly 556. I built one in 7.62x39 and one in 308. which is one reason I like AR better. you can build them easier, modify, upgrade, different calibers, parts are easy to find (although not right now due to covid19)
I like building and modifying things, so the AR is a great platform for this. AK you can do the same, but just more info and more parts for AR, or at least seems that way to me
Right there with ya.
I have read a lot of the positives of the 5.45x39. Back when I was more into trying different platforms, I was tempted to try. However, that was when 5.45 ammo wasn't that readily available, or if it was, it was expensive. Main allure of AK for me was cheap(er) ammo. Or at least cheaper than 5.56.
You reminded me of another thing about my AK.
I bought expensive, authentic Circle-10 30-rd mags. Had no problems function checking them all.
At KHSC, a guy came up to my bench as I was shooting the AK. He'd just bought an AK and some other brand 30-rd mags. He was having a misfeed every 1.2,3 or 4 rounds. He asked if I'd try his mag in my rifle.
Mag functioned perfectly through 3 x 5-rd reloads. Shows that some rifles just aren't as compatible with certain mag brands/models. Also true with certain "flavors" of ammo.
That little test gave me an even higher opinion of this AK's reliability.
I also let him use a Circle-10 mag in his rifle. No malfunctions at all. So, now he has to do some experimenting to find what mags in his price range work in his rifle. Not a position I'd like to be in when the outcome might mean life or death.
I view firearms like I view other products I may one day need to save my life. It just has to work. Saving a few bucks here or there isn't worth the chance it may fail in a pinch.
You reminded me of another thing about my AK.Good point on the mags. I've heard and have friends that have AKs that have to be careful with which mags to use. Don't know what brands, but I believe one is an older Russian. I assume mostly due to variations in the magwell. I read some AKs have to be adjusted to accommodate mags, but I wouldn't want a gun that needed that.
I bought expensive, authentic Circle-10 30-rd mags. Had no problems function checking them all.
At KHSC, a guy came up to my bench as I was shooting the AK. He'd just bought an AK and some other brand 30-rd mags. He was having a misfeed every 1.2,3 or 4 rounds. He asked if I'd try his mag in my rifle.
Mag functioned perfectly through 3 x 5-rd reloads. Shows that some rifles just aren't as compatible with certain mag brands/models. Also true with certain "flavors" of ammo.
That little test gave me an even higher opinion of this AK's reliability.
I also let him use a Circle-10 mag in his rifle. No malfunctions at all. So, now he has to do some experimenting to find what mags in his price range work in his rifle. Not a position I'd like to be in when the outcome might mean life or death.
I view firearms like I view other products I may one day need to save my life. It just has to work. Saving a few bucks here or there isn't worth the chance it may fail in a pinch.
The 5.45x39 is another oddity. Reminds me of Robin. Not quite full on Batman as ..223 Rem.:rofl: (Batman reference)
How are P Mags for the AK?
How are P Mags for the AK?
How are P Mags for the AK?I have tried all three Gen AK mags. I'd have to check, but I think I mostly have Gen 2.
Shows that some rifles just aren't as compatible with certain mag brands/models.So much for the vaunted idiot -proof and unber-compatible design of the AK?
So much for the vaunted idiot -proof and unber-compatible design of the AK?
J/K, my only AK experience was firing some full auto AK-74s.
edit: Remembering my brief encounter with the AK-74, was not familiar with the much shorter hand-guard than the AR and M-14, and burned myself after a full auto string. Never saw the need for those tacti-cool handstops on ARs, but can see how they might help on an AK with a HG barely long enough to grab and easy to overshoot to the gas block.
AR 7.62x39 bc I prefer the AR platform but like AK ammoAwesome!
SNIP
AR 7.62x39 bc I prefer the AR platform but like AK ammo
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4874/45895053682_470ba6e08d_b.jpg)
Buy both so you get both worlds :D
That what I did.
The rifle that was having problems with mags, particularly with Magpul mags was a friend's Sig Sauer 556R in 7.62x39 (strange name for the model, but anyways). There was another friend's AK that was more finicky on mags, but I can't remember the make.
556 russian. Strange but easy way to distinguish a regular 556, 556xi, and 556 russian. I think 556 was the model not based on caliber. Like 552 swat. Russian in its name Prob cause x39 ammo?Ahh, probably. I just know that it was a Sig, shot 7.62x29, and didn't like certain AK mags. Other than that, it shot great and was fun to shoot.
Century arms ak and saigas had issues with mags iirc. Importing them they had to do something with the frame? I could be mistaken again. I had a ddi before psa bought them out. So i had to do alot of research 4 years ago.
The AR-15 simply has more positive traits than the AK47, simple as that.
That's a conclusion.
Discuss the particulars.
Performance and features are superior in the AR15. AK47 has cost going for it though.
All things considered, I would prefer a M-14/M-1A, but cannot afford one.I’ve long wanted an M1A. The ammo that I’d want to shoot is the one of the bigger things keeping from a .308 semi-auto.
That's a conclusion.particulars that come to mind:
Discuss the particulars.
particulars that come to mind:
easy to re-barrel (length, caliber, barrel weight)
swap out uppers (multiple uppers for one registered lower)
integral pic rail on upper
wide range of buttstock options, triggers, plethora of other user-installable upgrades at reasonable cost.
if you think that's not the case, or that an equally wide range is available for the AK family, ok then. no debate.
I know all of that. I was trying to make EEF spend time listing his reasons.
He didn't have a response, because he was repeating a conclusion someone else had written or said in a video he watched.
Sorry you stepped on my landmine. :shake: :geekdanc: :shaka:
If you want to LARP and pretend you’re going to carry your AK around in a post apocalyptic world, even though there is no domestic supply chain for your chosen rifle (ammo, mags, spare parts), have at it. :crazy:
All things considered, I would prefer a M-14/M-1A, but cannot afford one.
I’ve long wanted an M1A. The ammo that I’d want to shoot is the one of the bigger things keeping from a .308 semi-auto.
This is kind of a silly topic and has been gamed out many times... but I’ll play. :shaka:
Usually people are going to prefer what they prefer, regardless of reason or logic.
There’s a reason why professional competitive shooters don’t compete using an AK.
There’s a reason why most militaries, outside of communist countries don’t field AKs.
I’ve owned wonderfully built AK-103 pattern rifles from Jim Fuller, Arsenal AKs, and a very nice Century. I’ve sought training from AK “experts.”
I ultimately found that the AK was a slower, less ergonomic, and more difficult to upgrade platform. Although perhaps it’s more robust and tolerant of abuse like we’d see in YouTube torture tests.
The answer to the question of which is better, “depends.”
If you want to shoot fast and accurate- the AR is far superior to the AK.
If you want to utilize modern optics, lights or perhaps even night vision devices in modern mounts, in a repeatable and consistent manner, the AR is the way.
If you want to LARP and pretend you’re going to carry your AK around in a post apocalyptic world, even though there is no domestic supply chain for your chosen rifle (ammo, mags, spare parts), have at it. :crazy:
better than arguing about events that happened over 100 years ago, abortion, why gun owners should vote for Sleepy Joe Biden and explaining to a millennial what other uses lead can be used for besides fishing weights
heads
Ar-15 is a tactical Barbie doll that people like to dress up with all sorts of accessories and show off at the range. It requires a lot of maintenance and a supply chain for parts and accessories that regularly wear out.
This is kind of a silly topic and has been gamed out many times... but I’ll play. :shaka:
Usually people are going to prefer what they prefer, regardless of reason or logic.
There’s a reason why professional competitive shooters don’t compete using an AK.
There’s a reason why most militaries, outside of communist countries don’t field AKs.
I’ve owned wonderfully built AK-103 pattern rifles from Jim Fuller, Arsenal AKs, and a very nice Century. I’ve sought training from AK “experts.”
I ultimately found that the AK was a slower, less ergonomic, and more difficult to upgrade platform. Although perhaps it’s more robust and tolerant of abuse like we’d see in YouTube torture tests.
The answer to the question of which is better, “depends.”
If you want to shoot fast and accurate- the AR is far superior to the AK.
If you want to utilize modern optics, lights or perhaps even night vision devices in modern mounts, in a repeatable and consistent manner, the AR is the way.
If you want to LARP and pretend you’re going to carry your AK around in a post apocalyptic world, even though there is no domestic supply chain for your chosen rifle (ammo, mags, spare parts), have at it. :crazy:
This is kind of a silly topic and has been gamed out many times... but I’ll play. :shaka:You still have any of those "wonderfully built" AKs? Should arrange for an AK range day. I shot my AK project in one of the classes for a few courses of fire and that sucker got unreal hot. Fun to shoot, but no real threat to replacing my ARs.
Usually people are going to prefer what they prefer, regardless of reason or logic.
There’s a reason why professional competitive shooters don’t compete using an AK.
There’s a reason why most militaries, outside of communist countries don’t field AKs.
I’ve owned wonderfully built AK-103 pattern rifles from Jim Fuller, Arsenal AKs, and a very nice Century. I’ve sought training from AK “experts.”
I ultimately found that the AK was a slower, less ergonomic, and more difficult to upgrade platform. Although perhaps it’s more robust and tolerant of abuse like we’d see in YouTube torture tests.
The answer to the question of which is better, “depends.”
If you want to shoot fast and accurate- the AR is far superior to the AK.
If you want to utilize modern optics, lights or perhaps even night vision devices in modern mounts, in a repeatable and consistent manner, the AR is the way.
If you want to LARP and pretend you’re going to carry your AK around in a post apocalyptic world, even though there is no domestic supply chain for your chosen rifle (ammo, mags, spare parts), have at it. :crazy:
My choice also.I say go for it. I want to start shooting my dad's 1903 and Garand when I get back into going to the range more often. Also need more ammo for the Garand.
I've long wanted to own a rifle like this. I regret not acquiring one when I was younger. I more likely would have gotten one then. I'm a whole lot older now so I usually let the logic of owning such a fine piece of equipment that has so much potential getting wasted at a 100 yard range win over just getting it because I want it.
I just admire and love garand type rifles. Part of the reason why I got a mini-14 30 years ago. I had my share of fun playing with the AR platform when I served in the military. AR's are good rifles and I really liked it but I did not love it.
I do love the 308/7.62 cartridge. In the military I spent almost equal time training with the M-60 machine gun since it was my secondary designated weapon. I have fond memories of live fire qualification at the ranges at Schofield. Engaging targets from 700 yards out to 1100 yards was just fun, fun, fun.
Sorry I digressed. :( Just an old man and his memories and the what if's in his life.......
I tell my friends that if I ever had to "display" a firearm to discourage bad guys from entering my property it would be my AK47, Zastava M70 with surplus wood furniture. It has the "evil look" that would hopefully change their minds from getting closer, and if not, though archaic, it's still effective.Display firearm? ??? ;D ;D
If I had to defend myself from intruders or zombies already on my property (handguns not part of this topic) it would be my AR15. If the target was 25+ yards, definitely AR15.
I have had no issues with reliability or parts for either platform, but I use my ARs probably fifty times more than my AKs.
AKs are soooo archaic...like, honestly, literally 1960s archaic.
Display firearm? ??? ;D ;DI didn't want to use "brandish".
50/1 would probably be about right to me too.
It's odd that digging up this old dead horse actually feels productive compared to some of the other conversations going on lately.
From a pure performance standpoint like first shot from a ready position, split times, reloads,
Why don’t we see AK pattern rifles used in competition at a high level?
You still have any of those "wonderfully built" AKs? Should arrange for an AK range day. I shot my AK project in one of the classes for a few courses of fire and that sucker got unreal hot. Fun to shoot, but no real threat to replacing my ARs.
I don't think there's any doubt the AR-15 is better suited for 3-Gunning. Lighter, easier to aim -- especially follow-up shots due to lower recoil --, lighter & smaller loaded mags that are easier to carry & handle, overall ergonomics, etc.
Having said that, it's not a given that the AK-47 isn't better suited to other applications.
In times of struggle, you pretty much take whichever you can get your hands on and have the ammo to feed.
It's odd that digging up this old dead horse actually feels productive compared to some of the other conversations going on lately.
Yes, except for you dodging my questions. :wave:
This is America and we can have both ARs and AKs.
I recognize that as I private citizen, I can own both. That’s awesome.
In which application do you think an AK is a better choice than an AR?
How about a Glock vs 1911 thread?9 vs 45
This is America and we can have both ARs and AKs.
I recognize that as I private citizen, I can own both. That’s awesome.
In which application do you think an AK is a better choice than an AR?
9 vs 45Although all I have are 45s - I agree with Larry Vickers
Nope, sold all the AKs several years ago to focus on proficiency with one platform and reallocate the funds into ARs.I’m in my second SLR rail for my AK project.
If I was to get into an AK again, it would still have an Ultimak, and maybe an SLR rail like Flapp posted.
I’m in my second SLR rail for my AK project.
Understand about the consolidating. Came full circle on that with handguns. Most of my training time lately has been on AR, but still like to dabble.
I'm of the opinion I benefit more through a variety of platforms to practice with than a single type.
When I decided to get back into shooting, the rule of thumb I followed was to acquire 5 types of firearms:
Revolver (DA/SA)
Semi-auto Pistol
Bolt Action Rifle
Sem-auto Rifle
Shotgun - any action type
That offers the minimum number of firearms the average person should know how to operate, clean and so on.
Once you're at the minimum, adding varieties of each type increases your breadth of skills and knowledge.
I'd hate to have exclusively AR-15s, then one day have to pick up an AK-47 to use in a pinch.
I'm of the opinion I benefit more through a variety of platforms to practice with than a single type.I mean I’m all for familiarity with a variety. I own a variety and was expanding for a while. But when it comes to training and classes, I’ve come to appreciate (more) proficiency with the tried and true. Preference from trying different firearms in classes.
When I decided to get back into shooting, the rule of thumb I followed was to acquire 5 types of firearms:
Revolver (DA/SA)
Semi-auto Pistol
Bolt Action Rifle
Sem-auto Rifle
Shotgun - any action type
That offers the minimum number of firearms the average person should know how to operate, clean and so on.
Once you're at the minimum, adding varieties of each type increases your breadth of skills and knowledge.
I'd hate to have exclusively AR-15s, then one day have to pick up an AK-47 to use in a pinch.
I'd hate to have exclusively AR-15s, then one day have to pick up an AK-47 to use in a pinch.I am a M-14 trained guy that barely transitioned (never had to qualify) to the M-16 before getting out.
From a pure performance standpoint like first shot from a ready position, split times, reloads,
Why don’t we see AK pattern rifles used in competition at a high level?
I like my 1911's and M1, but in terms of practicality and ease, I take my AR. it's been continually improved and refined over the last 50 years..... AK's have just been accessorized. We are talking about post WW2 technology here. Come on man!There are updated versions of AKs, or their outright successors, but don't think they are available in US.
If something goes wrong with the AR, being the most popular rifle in the US, you could easily cannibalize parts from other rifles to get your's back in action. No special tools. You can use a nail and a hammer, in a pinch. Probably make your Gucci race AR look like crap, but you could do it. AK breaks, bends, or burst, you SOL....
JMHO, Whatever works for you and you trust.
But yeah in all seriousness ill agree with everyone who said what works for you atm.1) I'm similar. I buy bulk ammo for a few calibers. Beyond that, I may buy some ammo here and there, but not much. At one time, I wanted to try a lot of different calibers, platforms, etc. But not anymore. Maybe if I lived in a more gun friendly state or one of those backyard ranges.
If 10 of my friends omly had aks. Id prob get an ak. Cause if shit went down ill most likely be cruisin with them.
Same goes for ar15.
In the past ive owned .22, 9, 40sw, 357 mag, 357 sig, 308, x39, 12 ga, 20ga. .380, x51. 6.8spc
Yea not as much as most of you here. 1) But i downsized to just a handfull of diff calibers now. Just easier for me and choose whatever is easier for you... choose your ak or ar and 9 or 45. All are great👍🏻
2) The only reason i didnt get a 45 was that i dont like 1911 platforms, ive shot several diff kine. I just dont like it. Personal preference. And the fact i would need to buy minimum 500 rounds of it. While i have 1000+ in several diff calibers already. Btw i wouldve gotten a p 227. 😋
1) I'm similar. I buy bulk ammo for a few calibers. Beyond that, I may buy some ammo here and there, but not much. At one time, I wanted to try a lot of different calibers, platforms, etc. But not anymore. Maybe if I lived in a more gun friendly state or one of those backyard ranges.
2) That's some fightin' words :o
I own 1911s and I enjoy shooting them, but they aren't my preference either. There are many those who would take those words as blasphemy. Mostly kidding, but a little bit of truth in that. ;D
if only i owned firearms and ammo, then i could join in on these discussions...You like buy? I sell to you, real cheap (in Vietnamese accent)
if only i owned firearms and ammo, then i could join in on these discussions...
C'mon man!heads
You like buy? I sell to you, real cheap (in Vietnamese accent)
C'mon man!
fifteen dolla too beaucoup...I'm not selling for fie dolla each. . . :rofl:
There are updated versions of AKs, or their outright successors, but don't think they are available in US.Yes. But can you re barrel them with a hammer and a nail?
Yes. But can you re barrel them with a hammer and a nail?
Yes. But can you re barrel them with a hammer and a nail?Da ;D
Da ;D
Yeah, if I ever shoot out the barrel of my AK, time for a new one. :rofl:
Nyet! That is Captialist way of thinking! Salvage weapon of dead enemy and give conscript hammer and torch!Rocks and fire pit ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/kdSrz8A.jpg)
Nyet! That is Captialist way of thinking! Salvage weapon of dead enemy and give conscript hammer and torch!
(https://i.imgur.com/kdSrz8A.jpg)
??? ??? ??? Did the AK and AR have a love child?I have a purebred (still stock) and a hapa AK (or bastard :o ) project that apparently has "AR genes".
Nyet! That is Captialist way of thinking! Salvage weapon of dead enemy and give conscript hammer and torch!
(https://i.imgur.com/kdSrz8A.jpg)
Like really? OMG SMH LOL ROFL
Literally looks like a liberal's gun. GTFO.
Da ;D
Yeah, if I ever shoot out the barrel of my AK, time for a new one. :rofl:
In a SHTF situation lots can happen besides shooting out the barrel. It could get bent, could get clogged with mud then accidentally ringed by firing a shot with the barrel obstruction, parts could get damaged, etc.I was kidding.
AR can be rigged to continue working, AK gets tossed, and hope you can find another.
I was kidding.
But seriously (to clarify), AR is my first choice. An AK wouldn’t even be my second choice. But, I still enjoy owning and shooting them.
:rofl: oops.... lol , BUT AKs Rule though!!Wolverines!!! ;DBefore this corona nonsense, I was on the lookout for a nice underfolder. I like how they look... pewpewPlus, I was a big fan of Ice Cube back in the 90's :thumbsup:
Wolverines!!! ;D
Not long after I got my first AR I was wanting an Arsenal AK. I’d actually be after an SKS that takes AK mags of the prices weren’t the ridiculous levels they are in the last 10 years or so.
Wolverines (the ORIGINAL good movie) made me want to get an RPG!!! :thumbsup: :rofl:
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/2fa6e655cafc7460d5f75210586581d7/tumblr_n3ocv6Y1TC1r9khx4o1_500.jpg)
I don't think there's any doubt the AR-15 is better suited for 3-Gunning. Lighter, easier to aim -- especially follow-up shots due to lower recoil --, lighter & smaller loaded mags that are easier to carry & handle, overall ergonomics, etc.
Having said that, it's not a given that the AK-47 isn't better suited to other applications.
In times of struggle, you pretty much take whichever you can get your hands on and have the ammo to feed.
From Associated Press
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/2fa6e655cafc7460d5f75210586581d7/tumblr_n3ocv6Y1TC1r9khx4o1_500.jpg)
Caption:
Omnigun showing us how to load an RPG launcher
Like. Really? SMH.The Russian instructor's expression says it all.
The Russian instructor's expression says it all."Wrong hole" :rofl: