2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: drck1000 on December 05, 2020, 11:35:45 AM
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Do you anneal your rifle brass? Why?
Do you do the annealing every reload? Have you noticed a difference in performance?
Ren's thread on annealing machine got me wondering who here does annealing. And what practical benefit do you see.
I've watched many videos and read a lot of forums. Like anything on forums, the responses run the spectrum. I get some of the basic concepts and reasonings for it, but none of the folks locally that I've spoken to anneal their cases. Whether it's too humbug or not worth it, I haven't really gotten to that level of discussion with most of those folks. Figured I'd ask here.
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I anneal because I wasn't get much life out of LC .223 cases. The necks would develop cracks within 2-3 resizings. I don't know if the expander ball was too aggressive (Lee dies) that was causing this or some other factor. I find that after annealing, cases feel different when running them through a sizing die. I read that there are some benefits on annealing i.e. tighter groups. I haven't tested that factor.
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I anneal because I wasn't get much life out of LC .223 cases. The necks would develop cracks within 2-3 resizings. I don't know if the expander ball was too aggressive (Lee dies) that was causing this or some other factor. I find that after annealing, cases feel different when running them through a sizing die. I read that there are some benefits on annealing i.e. tighter groups. I haven't tested that factor.
Gotcha. Would you anneal every reload? Or once every say 2-3?
Were you neck sizing? Or full length sizing?
My buddy does the full length sizing. He mentioned that one criticism was brass longevity. We've been discussing trying neck sizing.
The tighter groups was one aspect that I was curious about. The consistency of neck tension. I don't think I am anywhere near where I would notice something like that, but more wondering about those who have noticed.
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Thanks for posting that question drck1000 as I also have been wondering about this.. From what I've read (internet so take it for what it's worth), seems like the frequency that people do anneal varies so any information/experiences that could be shared here will be greatly appreciated...
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Anneal after every firing
Brass life
Consistency in neck tension and shoulder bump when sizing
Less to no runout after seating ( I don’t know if annealing helps with runout though, it’s around 2 thou to none at all when I check. Though I no check all the time. But then again, I use a chamber die to seat
Lowered es (yea right.. that’s only if I shooting10 rounds of the same reload that counts for me. Not this 5 shot at a time bs.. lol)
And most importantly.. that rainbow color looks cool.. lol
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Do you anneal your rifle brass? Why?
I did anneal my 6mmbr brass every 5 to 7 firings. Propane torch and pan of water method. My purpose was to extend the life of my Lapua brass. Annealing reduces the likely hood of split necks and other fatigue related failures. Loose primer pockets would signal end of life of my 6br brass. I always full length resize and when I am trying to produce accurate ammo, I use bushing dies with no expander.
I don't bother annealing 223, 300BLK, 308, 30 carbine or 30-06. Maybe if I was buying Lapua bra$$, I would, but not after every firing.
Do you do the annealing every reload? Have you noticed a difference in performance?
No, you don't need to anneal after every firing. Annealing can improve your brass resizing consistency. In my case, I was using really good brass with tight chamber and minimum resizing, so I didn't see degradation in the first five firings.
Annealing is one of those things that if you have to do, do it. Otherwise it is either tedious and possibly painful (burnt fingers) or expensive and probably tedious to set up. If your not splitting necks or shooting benchrest, your time and money is better spent on something else. If you really want to see for yourself, get a torch and do it the cheap way.
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This is interesting info...
Neck tension
https://youtu.be/OMEi5eHTLxQ
Annealing
https://youtu.be/2yOtCQsfJhU
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Gee, thanks fro the extra "rabbit holes". :shake: :shake: :shake:
Was interesting to see best moa results were at our best fps, 2500 fps (until he went "over").
Then again he was using 175gr vs our 168 gr but still noteworthy.
I only full size .308 brass not fired out of our one particular .308 rifle, after that I neck size only after it's been fired out of that rifle.
I have had one split case in 5 yrs
I don't think I have 5-7 reloads on our brass so I'll save the burnt fingers for now.
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some good info on this website, extremely technical info.
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/
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Thanks for posting that question drck1000 as I also have been wondering about this.. From what I've read (internet so take it for what it's worth), seems like the frequency that people do anneal varies so any information/experiences that could be shared here will be greatly appreciated...
That's why I started this thread (and others), which is to share experiences. A wealth of information and experience here.
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Anneal after every firing
Brass life
Consistency in neck tension and shoulder bump when sizing
Less to no runout after seating ( I don’t know if annealing helps with runout though, it’s around 2 thou to none at all when I check. Though I no check all the time. But then again, I use a chamber die to seat
Lowered es (yea right.. that’s only if I shooting10 rounds of the same reload that counts for me. Not this 5 shot at a time bs.. lol)
And most importantly.. that rainbow color looks cool.. lol
The neck tension thing was also something I've been reading/watching about bullet seating. How some benchrest folks purposely load long and then the chambering does the final seating. All interesting things, but key point was context. Since if you ever have to open your bolt after that round is chambered, the "chamber for final seating" will end up with a stuck bullet. (all interewebz info though)
10 shot tests huh? :o ;D
Looking cool is always a :thumbsup:
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I did anneal my 6mmbr brass every 5 to 7 firings. Propane torch and pan of water method. My purpose was to extend the life of my Lapua brass. Annealing reduces the likely hood of split necks and other fatigue related failures. Loose primer pockets would signal end of life of my 6br brass. I always full length resize and when I am trying to produce accurate ammo, I use bushing dies with no expander.
I don't bother annealing 223, 300BLK, 308, 30 carbine or 30-06. Maybe if I was buying Lapua bra$$, I would, but not after every firing.
No, you don't need to anneal after every firing. Annealing can improve your brass resizing consistency. In my case, I was using really good brass with tight chamber and minimum resizing, so I didn't see degradation in the first five firings.
Annealing is one of those things that if you have to do, do it. Otherwise it is either tedious and possibly painful (burnt fingers) or expensive and probably tedious to set up. If your not splitting necks or shooting benchrest, your time and money is better spent on something else. If you really want to see for yourself, get a torch and do it the cheap way.
Awesome! Another perspective. Thanks! :shaka:
Why only Lapua brass for 6 mmbr? Is that your precision rifle caliber of choice?
I'm just starting my reloading venture. So I'm not too worried about the uber precision or neck splitting. I mean I want to have better precision and want brass to last, but first steps first.
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Gee, thanks fro the extra "rabbit holes". :shake: :shake: :shake:
Was interesting to see best moa results were at our best fps, 2500 fps (until he went "over").
Then again he was using 175gr vs our 168 gr but still noteworthy.
I only full size .308 brass not fired out of our one particular .308 rifle, after that I neck size only after it's been fired out of that rifle.
I have had one split case in 5 yrs
I don't think I have 5-7 reloads on our brass so I'll save the burnt fingers for now.
Welcome to the precision rifle "rabbit hole". . . :shake:
:rofl:
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https://youtu.be/lLG2kSrD40g
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Anyone neck turn brass for a factory chamber? Why or why not? Any measurable results?
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Anyone neck turn brass for a factory chamber? Why or why not? Any measurable results?
Also if experience or feedback is specific to bolt guns or semi-autos.
My context is bolt guns, but understand lots of folks also pursuing for semi-autos.
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Also if experience or feedback is specific to bolt guns or semi-autos.
My context is bolt guns, but understand lots of folks also pursuing for semi-autos.
Sorry question was pertaining to bolt guns.
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Sorry question was pertaining to bolt guns.
All good. At least we not boring like macsak. . . :rofl:
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Awesome! Another perspective. Thanks! :shaka:
Why only Lapua brass for 6 mmbr? Is that your precision rifle caliber of choice?
I'm just starting my reloading venture. So I'm not too worried about the uber precision or neck splitting. I mean I want to have better precision and want brass to last, but first steps first.
Yes, 6mm Benchrest is the cartridge for my benchrest rifle. I used Lapua brass because it's the best but also the most expensive. If you can make it last, it becomes some of the cheapest.
THe rifle is a savage 12 benchrest with a Shilen barrel bedded with devcon. 6mmbr is a great cartridge for absolute accuracy out to 600 yards and there was a website and forum dedicated to 6mmbr. They since changed to https://www.accurateshooter.com/ check it out. You can find the answers you are looking for there, but beware. Benchrest shooters will do things for the tiniest accuracy advantage (real or imagined)
I got a bench rest rifle to experiment with loading to see what i could accomplish, accuracy wise. It was a fun experience. I learned that you got to have a good platform to start with. I learned how to bed a action/barrel. I learned that you have to have a custom hand lapped barrel. The best production barrel can't come close. I learned that consistency is everything. EVERYTHING! I learned that match grade is a word that gets thrown around a lot but doesn't mean anything.
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Yes, 6mm Benchrest is the cartridge for my benchrest rifle. I used Lapua brass because it's the best but also the most expensive. If you can make it last, it becomes some of the cheapest.
THe rifle is a savage 12 benchrest with a Shilen barrel bedded with devcon. 6mmbr is a great cartridge for absolute accuracy out to 600 yards and there was a website and forum dedicated to 6mmbr. They since changed to https://www.accurateshooter.com/ check it out. You can find the answers you are looking for there, but beware. Benchrest shooters will do things for the tiniest accuracy advantage (real or imagined)
I got a bench rest rifle to experiment with loading to see what i could accomplish, accuracy wise. It was a fun experience. I learned that you got to have a good platform to start with. I learned how to bed a action/barrel. I learned that you have to have a custom hand lapped barrel. The best production barrel can't come close. I learned that consistency is everything. EVERYTHING! I learned that match grade is a word that gets thrown around a lot but doesn't mean anything.
Further down the rabbit hole I got? ;D Haha, nah
Yeah, I've read good things about Lapua brass. Thanks to an awesomely cool 2a member, I have Lapua brass for my .308.
I did some reading of at accurateshooter website. IF (or when) get around to building a custom gun top to bottom, I have a lot of good info. Understood on the benchrest shooter things. I'm not into benchrest shooting, but had read some about it. Like any other forum, there's bickering amongst groups and benchrest vs PRS vs hunters seems to be a common one. Nothing against any, just different interests and priorities. Similar to one of my shooting buddies. He's all about hunting, so light gun, light barrel, etc. He poopoos on me and another buddy with our heavier profile barrels, heavier stock or chassis, etc. To me, all good. Just fun to be shooting.
Understand what you are saying about the experiment. Good to know what a platform is capable of. I am nowhere near that, but I'm an experienced enough shooter to at least suspect when equipment is hindering. Like that damn Hogue stock on my Rem 700. But along those lines, it's amazing at stuff like quality of scales, calipers, etc that folks get into. I'm not spending over $500 on a scale! But then I'll spend $$$ on glass though. Haha
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All good. At least we not boring like macsak. . . :rofl:
heads
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Let us know the results on effects of annealing. I think their backlogged a couples of weeks but so is the range. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
https://www.facebook.com/annealeez
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Many people often say you dont need to anneal that often to maintain an acceptable level of accuracy. This may be true depending on the cartridge. Every firing and sizing cycle will work harden the case creating a different material condition in the neck and shoulder junction. Over time you will lose consistency if the material hardness in the particular areas are not maintained. As far as what will happen? Hard to say exactly, but youll probably get fliers here and there and one day get to a point where your case necks wont be able to provide tension onto the projectiles. Consistency is king.
If youre using high quality brass such as lapua or alpha, annealing them will allow them to last a long time (assuming you annealed properly).
Will annealing shrink your groups? Honest answer is probably not, infact it might cause your groups to grow. You will probably need to change your bushing on your neck die to acheive the desired neck tension. You also need to clean the inside of your necks because an oxide layer will form on the inside of the neck. The oxide layer is rough and will cause massive problems. Groups at 100 yards will probably be negligible. Most group shooting isnt properly analyzed anyways, but thats another story for another time (go to precision rifle blog). The gains from annealing will be improved runout and shooting at distance.
Is this worth it? For most, no it makes no sense to anneal. Factory ammo has come a long way and "acceptable" accuracy can be achieved. The time and price of getting gas and tuning your annealer for the specific cartridge and brass type doesnt work out as you will consume a fair amount of time, gas, and ruin brass getting it done right. In most cases, youre better off scrapping the lot and buying new brass.
If you shoot alot, and consistency matter you, and have the cash, get the AMP annealer and be done with it. I use one and its the best annealing solution on the market. I grew up learning using a torch and holding the case with vise grips. You could also find someone who does have one and pay them to do it for you, services like this can be found on other forums.
TLDR
I do da amp ting every time fo make da kine last mo longa.
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Many people often say you dont need to anneal that often to maintain an acceptable level of accuracy. This may be true depending on the cartridge. Every firing and sizing cycle will work harden the case creating a different material condition in the neck and shoulder junction. Over time you will lose consistency if the material hardness in the particular areas are not maintained. As far as what will happen? Hard to say exactly, but youll probably get fliers here and there and one day get to a point where your case necks wont be able to provide tension onto the projectiles. Consistency is king.
If youre using high quality brass such as lapua or alpha, annealing them will allow them to last a long time (assuming you annealed properly).
Will annealing shrink your groups? Honest answer is probably not, infact it might cause your groups to grow. You will probably need to change your bushing on your neck die to acheive the desired neck tension. You also need to clean the inside of your necks because an oxide layer will form on the inside of the neck. The oxide layer is rough and will cause massive problems. Groups at 100 yards will probably be negligible. Most group shooting isnt properly analyzed anyways, but thats another story for another time (go to precision rifle blog). The gains from annealing will be improved runout and shooting at distance.
Is this worth it? For most, no it makes no sense to anneal. Factory ammo has come a long way and "acceptable" accuracy can be achieved. The time and price of getting gas and tuning your annealer for the specific cartridge and brass type doesnt work out as you will consume a fair amount of time, gas, and ruin brass getting it done right. In most cases, youre better off scrapping the lot and buying new brass.
If you shoot alot, and consistency matter you, and have the cash, get the AMP annealer and be done with it. I use one and its the best annealing solution on the market. I grew up learning using a torch and holding the case with vise grips. You could also find someone who does have one and pay them to do it for you, services like this can be found on other forums.
TLDR
I do da amp ting every time fo make da kine last mo longa.
;D
Kinda long, read most. Will have to go back and read closer later.
Neck tension is one aspect I've been reading more about lately though. Mainly for bolt guns, but also applications for semi-autos. Semi-auto considerations for eventually I get to shooting the M1 Garand.
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Agree.. @zypherdex is right. Get one AMP, pau. Mo safe, no need hang in your garage late at night with one fire extinguisher watching the Bench Source spin as the torches anneal your brass. Friggin boring. Well. Kinda cool at first. But I like my AMP with Aztec. Just tonight, after light show at the stadium with my family. Got home and annealed 50 Lapua 308 case. And 50 Nosler 223. Maybe little over 10 mins. Getting ready for LR shooting this weekend.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/K27hQw.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnK27hQwj)
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Agree.. @zypherdex is right. Get one AMP, pau. Mo safe, no need hang in your garage late at night with one fire extinguisher watching the Bench Source spin as the torches anneal your brass. Friggin boring. Well. Kinda cool at first. But I like my AMP with Aztec. Just tonight, after light show at the stadium with my family. Got home and annealed 50 Lapua 308 case. And 50 Nosler 223. Maybe little over 10 mins. Getting ready for LR shooting this weekend.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/K27hQw.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnK27hQwj)
Dang! You have TWO full powder scaling setups!!
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Was looking into both Annealeze (sp?) and AMP. The AMP system gets a LOT of good feedback. They also have a lot of videos showing the benefits of their system and annealing in general. There was this one video where the guys have a test range connected to their workshop that they reload. Damn impressive.
Annealing, if/when we get into it is a bit further down the road. Good to get feedback from folks on 2a. :thumbsup:
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Was looking into both Annealeze (sp?) and AMP. The AMP system gets a LOT of good feedback. They also have a lot of videos showing the benefits of their system and annealing in general. There was this one video where the guys have a test range connected to their workshop that they reload. Damn impressive.
Annealing, if/when we get into it is a bit further down the road. Good to get feedback from folks on 2a. :thumbsup:
the inductive annealing appears more precise as in the whole case doesn't get heated up. If I had to do it all over again I'd pursue that but with a cheaper inductive heater
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the inductive annealing appears more precise as in the whole case doesn't get heated up. If I had to do it all over again I'd pursue that but with a cheaper inductive heater
What are alternatives to the AMP system? Looking at all options at this point. Well, except for DIY setups.
I mean I am "ok" with paying for quality. Just other things on the "to buy" list.
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What are alternatives to the AMP system? Looking at all options at this point. Well, except for DIY setups.
I mean I am "ok" with paying for quality. Just other things on the "to buy" list.
I don't have experience with this ....yet... but it was mentioned in the Youtube vid I posted a thread or two ago
https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-US-Induction-Ductor-Magnetic-Heater-Kit-Bolt-Remover-Flameless-Heat-Tool/283781561067?epid=8025912484&hash=item4212b2faeb:g:fukAAOSwEoNe7CYl (https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-US-Induction-Ductor-Magnetic-Heater-Kit-Bolt-Remover-Flameless-Heat-Tool/283781561067?epid=8025912484&hash=item4212b2faeb:g:fukAAOSwEoNe7CYl)
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Was looking into both Annealeze (sp?) and AMP. The AMP system gets a LOT of good feedback. They also have a lot of videos showing the benefits of their system and annealing in general. There was this one video where the guys have a test range connected to their workshop that they reload. Damn impressive.
Annealing, if/when we get into it is a bit further down the road. Good to get feedback from folks on 2a. :thumbsup:
you can buy lots of stuff for how much the AMP costs...
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you can buy lots of stuff for how much the AMP costs...
Annealing Made Perfect. . . not your usual hangout. . . ;D