2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vbc on May 21, 2023, 02:15:26 PM
-
New rule…Rifle range target frames….must be….5 feet to the center of the lowest target… so 5 feet four inches ( because of the frame legs that go into the pipe ground) to the middle of the lowest target. Starting June….your target doesn’t comply…no rifle shooting! Anybody know the reason?
-
they want the rounds to impact the middle of the berm...
New rule…Rifle range target frames….must be….5 feet to the center of the lowest target… so 5 feet four inches ( because of the frame legs that go into the pipe ground) to the middle of the lowest target. Starting June….your target doesn’t comply…no rifle shooting! Anybody know the reason?
-
they want the rounds to impact the middle of the berm...
Asian man syndrome resulting from negative Western perceptions
-
Anybody know the reason?
Because you suck, and they hate you. (HK gun reference)
Next up:
If you are shooting low (below the 5' center of your target), you'll be required to mount your targets higher than 5'.
Still shooting too low? Mandatory training and qualification test administered by a state-certified rifle instructor.
-
Asian man syndrome resulting from negative Western perceptions
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Anybody know the reason?
As with many of the Hawaii government mandates, there really isn't any. :rofl:
-
Going to be some interesting frame designs this Saturday.
😀
-
Selling on Craigslist
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230601/5139ad94a4ead44ffc12a233bcf0aa20.jpg)
Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk
-
http://khsc.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Rifle-Frame.pdf
On the website, frame template says 48" to 80" for height
-
When KHSC provided frames they were about that tall. When shooters returned them some were halved.
-
http://khsc.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Rifle-Frame.pdf
On the website, frame template says 48" to 80" for height
None of the old rules matter now. HI politicians are pissed about Bruen, so they intend to poke and harass gun owners as much as possible to make gun ownership anything but pleasant.
Plus, that website is not the official range site.
-
http://khsc.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Rifle-Frame.pdf
On the website, frame template says 48" to 80" for height
Updated website
https://www.honolulu.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38579:koko-head-shooting-complex&catid=182:site-dpr-cat
https://www.honolulu.gov/rep/site/dpr/pmrs_docs/Rifle_Range_target_frame_April_2023_Koko_Head_Shooting_Complex.pdf
-
Ok, so it says the 2X2 would be 60" to 80".
If someone opts to build one at 60" the center of his target will not be 60" above the ground.
Someone check my math please.
-
Selling on Craigslist
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230601/5139ad94a4ead44ffc12a233bcf0aa20.jpg)
Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk
This doesn't look 5 feet if you place the center of the target at the very bottom of the frame. More like 3 ft.
-
Ok, so it says the 2X2 would be 60" to 80".
If someone opts to build one at 60" the center of his target will not be 60" above the ground.
Someone check my math please.
Your math is correct. The calculation is above 2nd grade math so the gubment . . .
-
Updated website
https://www.honolulu.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38579:koko-head-shooting-complex&catid=182:site-dpr-cat
https://www.honolulu.gov/rep/site/dpr/pmrs_docs/Rifle_Range_target_frame_April_2023_Koko_Head_Shooting_Complex.pdf
Mahalos for the links :shaka:
The first link only states minimum height with no maximum & the second link is for a material list (again no maximum height) . . .
-
i'll make mine 15 feet tall :thumbsup:
-
The max target height will depend on where the rsos want your bullets to impact on the backstop
Like the pistol range where you cannot stack targets vertically.
-
i'll make mine 15 feet tall :thumbsup:
Is there a max height posted?
-
Is there a max height posted?
I imagine if not, there soon will be.
:geekdanc: :rofl:
-
I imagine if not, there soon will be.
:geekdanc: :rofl:
Challenge accepted.
-
If not City Mill just down the road.
-
This doesn't look 5 feet if you place the center of the target at the very bottom of the frame. More like 3 ft.
Garage door behind
Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk
-
The max target height will depend on where the rsos want your bullets to impact on the backstop
Like the pistol range where you cannot stack targets vertically.
Are you saying where the bullet impacts the backstop is the reason for the "no stacking" rule on the pistol range?
I was under the impression the reason was they think two circles stacked resemble a silhouette (i.e. human) target -- which is expressly prohibited.
Looking for answers as to why certain rules exist is like the video "What is a woman?" Straight, logical and factual answers don't seem to exist.
-
Are you saying where the bullet impacts the backstop is the reason for the "no stacking" rule on the pistol range?
I was under the impression the reason was they think two circles stacked resemble a silhouette (i.e. human) target -- which is expressly prohibited.
Looking for answers as to why certain rules exist is like the video "What is a woman?" Straight, logical and factual answers don't seem to exist.
Yes. With vertically placed targets - shooters had a good chance of hitting the target stands at the 50 yard line.
-
Are you saying where the bullet impacts the backstop is the reason for the "no stacking" rule on the pistol range?
I was under the impression the reason was they think two circles stacked resemble a silhouette (i.e. human) target -- which is expressly prohibited.
Looking for answers as to why certain rules exist is like the video "What is a woman?" Straight, logical and factual answers don't seem to exist.
I also thought the same thing. Targets stacked vertically would also allow shooters to practice the "3 to the chest and 2 to the head" drill. But super, super slowly since no rapid fire..... :rofl:
-
yup
put target on the upper right to aim at and second target on the low left for impacts
it's simple, and targets are not vertical...
Yes. With vertically placed targets - shooters had a good chance of hitting the target stands at the 50 yard line.
-
Check out Kit N' Guns FB post. He's 5'11 and the stand towers above him.
-
I made my target frame 7.5' which allows for 2 letter size sheets of paper to be above the minimum.
Fun fact - to get the 50 yard target in line with the backstop, min target height would be 13'.
-
I made my target frame 7.5' which allows for 2 letter size sheets of paper to be above the minimum.
Fun fact - to get the 50 yard target in line with the backstop, min target height would be 13'.
Wait a minute. So the 60" minimum to center of target only applies when you place the target frame at the 100 yd line?
Did I miss something? Rifle side is not allowing anyone to place a target stand at 50 yds unless they make a target stand taller than a T-Rex?
And if they do allow these 13 ft. target stands at 50 yds, are they gonna provide ladders?
-
this whole 5' target height thing sounds ridiculous. beyond ridiculous. redonkeylous. JMHO.
-
There's no height requirement for the 50 yard line. There should be but it would be absurdly high and the parks realizes that a 50 yard line is necessary.
I'm guessing they'll install a backstop behind the 50 yard line in the next phase of improvements.
-
Ensuring rounds go directly into the backstop is a industry standard and good practice wherever you go. It's required at indoor and outdoor ranges to prevent damage to the floors and ceilings and to reduce ricochets. You adjust the height of the target so it's in line with the muzzle and backstop.
-
From the Koko Head stairs, I always hear a couple of ricochets. I figure it's the 100 yard target stand pipes being hit by 50 yard shooters. What else could it be?
-
What was the initial reasoning for the shooting bays to be on elevated ground anyways? If the shooting bays were in line with the 100 yard berm instead of being elevated we wouldn't have this problem I think.
But please correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorry, not trying to be negative here but so many things seem to be not thought out well. The City closed down the range due to safety concerns, yet spends money on fixing and painting the roof of the shooting bays. I mean maintenance is important and all, but if the budget is limited and the overall concern is safety, then address the fact that the 50 yard line, while not initially intended for the rifle side (from what I've heard historically) is something that shooters want and need.
So the City should have implemented the 50 yd berm. For safety reasons. ::)
-
I'm not sure why the rifle firing line is elevated. All the range managers and designers I've talked to said to level it out, and rebuild it.
Maybe it was old range design philosophy back in the 1950s. Or from it's military roots when the national guard first built the range.
-
Wonder if it was a berm itself at one point.
Shoot from hillside to berm ( where the benches are) for military training ?
Seems built on a berm.
-
Where does 1 sign up to join the "Hononlulu Police Department"?
Is their HQ OnOn Chinese restaurant?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230609/f3c7669101c5c5fad6b0026cad517a26.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
-
Where does 1 sign up to join the "Hononlulu Police Department"?
Is their HQ OnOn Chinese restaurant?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230609/f3c7669101c5c5fad6b0026cad517a26.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
that is what happens when you don't consult people who are experienced with range design. I think they consulted an aquarium designer.
-
Where does 1 sign up to join the "Hononlulu Police Department"?
Is their HQ OnOn Chinese restaurant?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230609/f3c7669101c5c5fad6b0026cad517a26.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I want to go work at the station in Waikikiki
-
Where does 1 sign up to join the "Hononlulu Police Department"?
Is their HQ OnOn Chinese restaurant?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230609/f3c7669101c5c5fad6b0026cad517a26.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
There's currently a squabble between HPD and the City that's holding up the bays reopening.
-
From the Koko Head stairs, I always hear a couple of ricochets. I figure it's the 100 yard target stand pipes being hit by 50 yard shooters. What else could it be?
Ricochets can come from a lot of things. Hitting rocks or bullets in the dirt, edge of frames or steel targets. But ricochets like that normally lose energy quickly and don't go too far.
-
Ricochets can come from a lot of things. Hitting rocks or bullets in the dirt, edge of frames or steel targets. But ricochets like that normally lose energy quickly and don't go too far.
I've been hit with many ricochets from about 10 yards that were hitting the rocks on the bay side over the years. They hit my cheek. No blood or even a mark. It's like a pebble was being tossed by a 3 year old at your cheek.
Then I've been hit by ricochets from steel at about 15 yards and the same. No blood or marks left on my cheek or my forehead. Only once did it hit my forehead.
Other times it hit my plate carrier and made no marks or puncture in the material used to make the carrier.
Been hit by ricochet from bird or buck shot from the bay next door while being in the berm area once. Again, no blood or even a mark. This hit my forearm. I knew it was bird/buck shot because I could hear the spread hitting the mountains grass.
-
I've been hit with many ricochets from about 10 yards that were hitting the rocks on the bay side over the years. They hit my cheek. No blood or even a mark. It's like a pebble was being tossed by a 3 year old at your cheek.
Then I've been hit by ricochets from steel at about 15 yards and the same. No blood or marks left on my cheek or my forehead. Only once did it hit my forehead.
Other times it hit my plate carrier and made no marks or puncture in the material used to make the carrier.
Been hit by ricochet from bird or buck shot from the bay next door while being in the berm area once. Again, no blood or even a mark. This hit my forearm. I knew it was bird/buck shot because I could hear the spread hitting the mountains grass.
Were they intact or mostly intact ricochets, or frag/hunks of jacket?
Only once have I heard what I’d consider a legit “ricochet” on the action bays (complete with the old western movie whizzing noise). Came from a shot that hit the berm, so must’ve been a rock or something. Been hit by a few pieces of frag from steel targets, too; most were just a little sting, no damage. One hit right in the middle of my eye pro… took a little chunk out of the lens. Was glad I had them on. :o
-
Were they intact or mostly intact ricochets, or frag/hunks of jacket?
Only once have I heard what I’d consider a legit “ricochet” on the action bays (complete with the old western movie whizzing noise). Came from a shot that hit the berm, so must’ve been a rock or something. Been hit by a few pieces of frag from steel targets, too; most were just a little sting, no damage. One hit right in the middle of my eye pro… took a little chunk out of the lens. Was glad I had them on. :o
Frags
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
-
New rule…Rifle range target frames….must be….5 feet to the center of the lowest target… so 5 feet four inches ( because of the frame legs that go into the pipe ground) to the middle of the lowest target. Starting June….your target doesn’t comply…no rifle shooting! Anybody know the reason?
Not clear on the wording. So the ground to the bottom of the frame must be 5"?
is that because the 50 yard pipes are a little lower than the 100 yard pipes? Am I misunderstanding something here?
-
Not clear on the wording. So the ground to the bottom of the frame must be 5"?
is that because the 50 yard pipes are a little lower than the 100 yard pipes? Am I misunderstanding something here?
The center of the bottom target must be 5'4"
The reason is they don't need a reason
No comply, no shoot
Just like, why only 5 rounds?
Doesn't matter
No comply, no shoot
-
The center of the bottom target must be 5'4"
The reason is they don't need a reason
No comply, no shoot
Just like, why only 5 rounds?
Doesn't matter
No comply, no shoot
Just like in other communist countries, main thing is comply.
-
Only once have I heard what I’d consider a legit “ricochet” on the action bays (complete with the old western movie whizzing noise). Came from a shot that hit the berm, so must’ve been a rock or something.
About half way up (or down) the Koko Head "stairs", behind the berm is where I usually hear a couple of ricochets. I heard a lot yesterday, including six in a couple of minutes at about 9am, yes that old western movie whizzing noise coming from down below, lower pitch. If the rules are an attempt at minimizing ricochets, I have no arguments. Photo is from yesterday.
-
If we put steel targets right against the berm, the berm will catch any ricochet. Or if a ricochet does manage to go over the berm, it will be at such a steep angle it will pose no threat to hikers and it definately isn't going over the mountain
-
If we put steel targets right against the berm, the berm will catch any ricochet. Or if a ricochet does manage to go over the berm, it will be at such a steep angle it will pose no threat to hikers and it definately isn't going over the mountain
I have no fears of a ricochet injuring a hiker, even with steel targets. I think it is highly unlikely for a ricochet to even leave the range. What I am trying to say is that there are ricochets happening and that new rules to attempt to limit ricochets are not ridiculous.
-
I have no fears of a ricochet injuring a hiker, even with steel targets. I think it is highly unlikely for a ricochet to even leave the range. What I am trying to say is that there are ricochets happening and that new rules to attempt to limit ricochets are not ridiculous.
I agree. we needed to address the complaints with some sort of action.
I miss shooting steel targets. I wish there is a way to bring them back.
we could try using the laws of physics, math, research, knowledge from other ranges on the mainland. take measures to insure ricochets don't leave the range
-
I agree. we needed to address the complaints with some sort of action.
I miss shooting steel targets. I wish there is a way to bring them back.
we could try using the laws of physics, math, research, knowledge from other ranges on the mainland. take measures to insure ricochets don't leave the range
Oh, like that one group in the shooting bays that INSISTED that one of their members was hit by "reeecoh shay" from an adjacent bay from shooting steel. That the metal could hit the steel target, fly up and over the berm, and back down with enough energy that it hit a guy hard enough that it felt like a slap in the back of his head. . . if one paid attention in basic physics class, they would know that is not possible. . . but eh, only the opinion of an engineer. . .
-
Oh, like that one group in the shooting bays that INSISTED that one of their members was hit by "reeecoh shay" from an adjacent bay from shooting steel. That the metal could hit the steel target, fly up and over the berm, and back down with enough energy that it hit a guy hard enough that it felt like a slap in the back of his head. . . if one paid attention in basic physics class, they would know that is not possible. . . but eh, only the opinion of an engineer. . .
I remember that incident. Did they ever find that slug/piece?
-
Oh, like that one group in the shooting bays that INSISTED that one of their members was hit by "reeecoh shay" from an adjacent bay from shooting steel. That the metal could hit the steel target, fly up and over the berm, and back down with enough energy that it hit a guy hard enough that it felt like a slap in the back of his head. . . if one paid attention in basic physics class, they would know that is not possible. . . but eh, only the opinion of an engineer. . .
What made it worst was that they came by to take pics of the set up also. I've been hit by a reeecoh shay from 15 yards or so and it didn't even leave a mark on my cheek.
Things like this is what get the range shut down and give anti 2a'ers more ammo to. The guy was fine, not like he needed to go to the hospital or anything. IDK what hit him, but something must have.
-
It's possible that bullets can go over the berms, just has to be shot at the right angle and deflect off 2 objects. It'll just be lobbed over, like throwing it. Throw a bullet at someone and it could feel equivalent to a slap.
Getting hit with fragments and falling bullets will happen when shooting at close ranges. But they don't have the energy to injure and that's why we wear eye pro and why we have range rules to reduce the occurrences.
-
and what are the chances of that happening???? what second object are you referring to?
That is speculation.
-
I remember that incident. Did they ever find that slug/piece?
I'm not saying the guy is lying, but maybe somebody did walk behind him and slap him in the back of his head. :rofl:
Oh, like that one group in the shooting bays that INSISTED that one of their members was hit by "reeecoh shay" from an adjacent bay from shooting steel. That the metal could hit the steel target, fly up and over the berm, and back down with enough energy that it hit a guy hard enough that it felt like a slap in the back of his head. . . if one paid attention in basic physics class, they would know that is not possible. . . but eh, only the opinion of an engineer. . .
-
is there an engineer in the house? or better yet a physicist.
-
A few years ago in Action Bay 1, there were some frags coming over the berm. Couple of guys went over to Action Bay 2, asked to check out their steel, found they were using a deformed plate close to the berm. The deformed plate was removed and no more frags coming over the berm.
-
Video demonstration of bullets being deflected by the ground.
https://youtu.be/3uBBWY-an-c
-
Example of a bullet being deflected back. Doesn't have the energy to hurt someone, but could be enough to lob over a berm and smack someone. Just has to be deflected a few times at the right angle.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ObZQz0sycQY
-
Video demonstration of bullets being deflected by the ground.
https://youtu.be/3uBBWY-an-c
So you're statement about hitting a 2nd thing then deflecting would be accurate as the ground is the first thing. The bullet would have to hit 10 feet (assume the head is in full shape) in front the person and not be a frag from steel, then skip toward the backstop mountain (remain intact) and still have enough energy to cause bleeding and a slap to the back of the head.
Or like my situation, someone shooting at the mountain and the fragment hit my cheek and caused no damage.
-
Example of a bullet being deflected back. Doesn't have the energy to hurt someone, but could be enough to lob over a berm and smack someone. Just has to be deflected a few times at the right angle.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ObZQz0sycQY
If KHSC required all tracers, we may have been able to see where it came from. And a side benefit is no need cut the long grass as it would catch fire and burn itself away.
-
So you're statement about hitting a 2nd thing then deflecting would be accurate as the ground is the first thing. The bullet would have to hit 10 feet (assume the head is in full shape) in front the person and not be a frag from steel, then skip toward the backstop mountain (remain intact) and still have enough energy to cause bleeding and a slap to the back of the head.
Or like my situation, someone shooting at the mountain and the fragment hit my cheek and caused no damage.
That was the example of like shooting a rifle at the 50 yard line with no intermediate backstop. Bullets hit the dirt and go over the 100 yard backstop.
-
An example of why you have to be careful about steel placement, manufacturer directions, and shooting angles.
Pellet came back because the steel was too close and shooter was at an elevated position. This increased the angle of the plate causing pellets to be deflected behind the stand instead of safely Infront of it. Pellet probably deflected off the plate, deflected off the stand, deflected off the stand legs, and back to the shooter.
https://youtube.com/shorts/yTzzY2VfMxE?feature=share
-
Based on these nuggets of information and analysis, I suggest shutting down the action bays. They are too dangerous.
-
So you're statement about hitting a 2nd thing then deflecting would be accurate as the ground is the first thing. The bullet would have to hit 10 feet (assume the head is in full shape) in front the person and not be a frag from steel, then skip toward the backstop mountain (remain intact) and still have enough energy to cause bleeding and a slap to the back of the head.
Or like my situation, someone shooting at the mountain and the fragment hit my cheek and caused no damage.
Apparenlty, according to some, it could happen. . .
Yeah, many of us have seen projectiles get "lobbed" up in the air and hit someone. Kind of like getting hit from debris from aerials on NYE. But what at least one group claimed, and frankly accused vehemently, was way more energy than that. . .
That said, issue of frag, splash, richochets are definitely real. My point was so much exaggeration, often not based on physics. . .
-
What made it worst is before anyone was made aware of what happened, had about 4 guys come over and began taking pics and video. Like dude, be cool, you know there's people looking to shut the range down. Your guy was fine, no ER or doctor visit needed. Stuff happens often at a gun range.
What they should have done is approach the person in charge 1st and explain what happened. And do the same to the rifle/pistol side, but I guess that's too far of a walk. It could be possible someone had a ND and a bullet (probably 22LR) was shot toward the bays from the rifle/pistol side and skipped or caused a ricochet.
IDK which way the person was facing when the impact occurred.
-
If I'm shooting at 50 yards can I still use my old target frame?
-
If I'm shooting at 50 yards can I still use my old target frame?
Nope, all target frames need to meet the new requirement.
-
when I shot at the silhouette side, sometimes when I would miss the steel target (that's hardly ever ;) ), I could see the projectile skip off the ground a couple times until it hit the back berm. this is only with 45acp. idk if that's bc its going so slow i can see it or bc it's going so slow it skips
also shooting that side I remember a few times I could hear ricochets from the rifle side as I would be resetting the steel targets. sounded like it hit something at the 50 yd line and then I hear the "wizzing" sound . but sounded like it stayed on the rifle side
-
Is it still no steel targets? What if I have the little automatic resetting ones for 22?
-
no steel targets still, probably forever
-
So just to reconfirm all the information in this thread:
(1) Kokohead now requires rifle frames that are 5 feet to the center of the lowest target. With the 4 inch recess into the ground this means legs should be at least 5 feet 4 inches to the center of the lowest target
(2) This applies for rifle targets at both the 50 yards and 100 yards.
(3) The 14" base size of the original rifle mounting poles are still the same, so build frames accordingly.
Did I miss anything or get anything wrong? Also, did anything change for the pistol side?
-
So just to reconfirm all the information in this thread:
(1) Kokohead now requires rifle frames that are 5 feet to the center of the lowest target. With the 4 inch recess into the ground; this means legs should be at least 5 feet 4 inches to the center of the lowest target
(2) This applies for rifle targets at both the 50 yards and 100 yards.
(3) The 14" base size of the original rifle mounting poles are still the same, so build frames accordingly.
Did I miss anything or get anything wrong? Also, did anything change for the pistol side?
....
I went pistol side on Sunday. I would make a reservation if you go in the morning. Afternoon was only half full so I just walked in with no reservation. Previously, they were spacing people out due to covid. They stopped that now, so that means plenty open lanes again. Target frames are same. If you haven't shot since last year, don't be surprised if your skill level sucks. My aging muscle memory got dementia.