2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: changemyoil66 on July 18, 2023, 11:33:54 AM
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https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/07/18/four-hpd-recruits-hospitalized-after-suffering-exhaustion-self-defense-exercises/?fbclid=IwAR188U2ky_GmA4A-XwJuDA4cBPRdD2ahMY42lgBhUjtPrpjM9TAWWaEuYvA
Plus 1 shot themself.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/b2/9c/59b29c2eacc55b338cb992897332da5c.gif)
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Gen z is what happens when you do too many medical experiments on a population
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HPD might have to look into their instructors and their training regimen.
Drill instructors in the military are trained to push the envelope without incurring injuries or cases like these.
Once in a while is inevitable but 4? Plus 1 shot themself? WTF is going on over there. ::)
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WTF is going on over there. ::)
They are receiving the finest training possible by the finest instructors available to become Honolulu's finest.
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I can't say why this situation played out this way, however I have been saying that as we create a society with less and less respect for elders, and authority these things happen. Add an overinflated sense of importance, and entitlement, and you create a society of people who don't recognize the importance of other's instructions, and therefore the validity, or the seriousness those instructions.
Keep up with what we have been doing to our children, and the fabric of our society, and the documentary Idiocracy will happen much sooner than 500 years in the future.
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They are receiving the finest training possible by the finest instructors available to become Honolulu's finest.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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The police training, at least for Honolulu, is some of the best in the nation and is very difficult. Concussions, heat injuries, broken bones, sprains and strains, happen quite often. The training is hard as there are no timeouts when one cop may be fending off a gang. Though 4 heat injuries at the same time is very unusual. But it could be as simple as delaying or skipping a break.
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https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/07/18/four-hpd-recruits-hospitalized-after-suffering-exhaustion-self-defense-exercises/?fbclid=IwAR188U2ky_GmA4A-XwJuDA4cBPRdD2ahMY42lgBhUjtPrpjM9TAWWaEuYvA
Plus 1 shot themself.
When I was in USAF BMT Lackland AFB which is was less strenuous than other services
We ran a mile and a half timed in 114F temperatures.
Did "confidence course" training barbed wired, simuated explosions and gunfire
in the same temperatures.
I know cops are not soldiers (although they like to dress up like them eg SWAT teams)
but a certain level of physical endurance should be required.
Else you get women and fat police whose first action is to pull their Glock out and shoot.
That is not policing that is war.
Don't be surprised if the public gets the message and cops are killed/executed.
:wave:
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HPD might have to look into their instructors and their training regimen.
Drill instructors in the military are trained to push the envelope without incurring injuries or cases like these.
Once in a while is inevitable but 4? Plus 1 shot themself? WTF is going on over there. ::)
Prior military has historically been the most desirable recruiting pool for law enforcement.
Prior military have physical standards, understand chain of command, are accustomed to being in uniform (follow standards of attire), are proficient with firearms, etc, etc.
Seems like most applicants now are just high school grads or are seeking a criminal justice and/or a law degree.
Standards appear to have stepped aside in the name of inclusivity and tolerance. :popcorn:
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The police training, at least for Honolulu, is some of the best in the nation and is very difficult. Concussions, heat injuries, broken bones, sprains and strains, happen quite often. The training is hard as there are no timeouts when one cop may be fending off a gang. Though 4 heat injuries at the same time is very unusual. But it could be as simple as delaying or skipping a break.
I think you are way too submissive of local cops.
Any training where people are getting hurt is abusive and doesn't
teach a damn thing except how to be abusive.
Cops are NOT soldiers.
They are police.
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I think you are way too submissive of local cops.
Any training where people are getting hurt is abusive and doesn't
teach a damn thing except how to be abusive.
Cops are NOT soldiers.
They are police.
Police work is harder than the military in some ways.
Military you have a team or squad with you. You might be able to retreat.
Police, you're on your own until backup arrives. And you may not have the option of retreating.
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Police work is harder than the military in some ways.
Military you have a team or squad with you. You might be able to retreat.
Police, you're on your own until backup arrives. And you may not have the option of retreating.
From my experience, they wouldn't be in a position where they needed to retreat if they didn't escalate a situation unnecessarily.
Luck of the draw, but some Cops, not just in Honolulu, must have taken classes in how to push people's buttons to get them to react negatively. I guess it's not a good shift if they don't get to arrest someone.
I had an interaction where the first officer on scene was a good listener, asked good questions and basically put everyone at ease while she got the details. As soon as her partner (maybe backup?) arrived, he immediately started trying to escalate the situation -- giving that vibe that he's 5 seconds away from yelling "Get on the ground! Stop resisting!"
He even asked me where my registered firearms were. They were in Hawaii, and I was on the mainland, but I couldn't figure out how he knew I had firearms registered in another state. There's no national registry, right?
Right?? :shake:
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The police training, at least for Honolulu, is some of the best in the nation and is very difficult. Concussions, heat injuries, broken bones, sprains and strains, happen quite often. The training is hard as there are no timeouts when one cop may be fending off a gang. Though 4 heat injuries at the same time is very unusual. But it could be as simple as delaying or skipping a break.
HPD makes these guys look good!
https://youtu.be/ICdvT4RkKpE
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I get the strains, sprains, concussions, etc…….
But recruit shot himself at their indoor range ?
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I get the strains, sprains, concussions, etc…….
But recruit shot himself at their indoor range ?
At least he didn't shoot the instructor. That has happened on the mainland, but the one I am recalling was not at a police academy.
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Glass half full. :shaka:
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At least he didn't shoot the instructor. That has happened on the mainland, but the one I am recalling was not at a police academy.
Anybody who has instructed
shooters knows you never stand on their strong side.
:geekdanc:
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HPD might have to look into their instructors and their training regimen.
Drill instructors in the military are trained to push the envelope without incurring injuries or cases like these.
Once in a while is inevitable but 4? Plus 1 shot themself? WTF is going on over there. ::)
From what I have read, heat stroke, and the opposite, hypothermia, isn't that uncommon in military training.
It is a fair question though, were they over worked, under supervised, or even really out of shape?
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From what I have read, heat stroke, and the opposite, hypothermia, isn't that uncommon in military training.
It is a fair question though, were they over worked, under supervised, or even really out of shape?
It is, in fact, very uncommon in military training. Of course rates vary by service, location and type of training/specialties.
In 2021, heat stroke incidents among recruits was just 25. The Army alone had more than 30K recruits, so that number is not really a "common" occurrence.
Military leaders are taught to take great care to avoid heat-related illness among many other physical ailments that can reduce combat effectiveness. In my training, the base would raise a red flag to indicate that the heat index was too high for physical exertion. We ate 3 meals a day in the mess hall, and every person was required to take 2 tall glasses of water in addition to any other beverages we chose. In survival training, we sought out shade, drank 1 qt of water per hour, and were instructed on the signs of heat exhaustion and dehydration.
This was in Texas during August, the hottest month of the year.
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Police work is harder than the military in some ways.
Military you have a team or squad with you. You might be able to retreat.
Police, you're on your own until backup arrives. And you may not have the option of retreating.
HPD is short staffed and it wouldn't take that many officers with medical disabilities to reduce their effectiveness to the point where our neighborhoods will either have to hire private security or form citizens patrols.
Most of us know how to shoot more or less, but trying to untie the knots of domestic violence and manage the criminal underworld is a whole other ball of wax.
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Police work is harder than the military in some ways.
Military you have a team or squad with you. You might be able to retreat.
Police, you're on your own until backup arrives. And you may not have the option of retreating.
While the job itself might have more challenges, we are talking specifically about training.
Unless it's HPD's goal to give recruits heat stroke because it's more realistic with regards to actual police duty, there should be better control over the physical illnesses that can arise in training. It's much more difficult to train someone who had to go to the hospital to be treated for a preventable problem like heat stroke.
This is Hawaii, after all. Not exactly a shock that people can exceed a safe body temp with moderate physical exertion. If they want to develop a tolerance to the temperatures here, maybe they need to stop subsidizing and providing air conditioned patrol vehicles and put more officers on the streets walking a beat? Exercise, better community relations, and acclimation to the weather.
I'd like to see a remedial training class for active duty officers every 3 years just to see how many can pass the same recruitment physical training tasks.
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Agree. Just like in the military. Annual physical fitness standards depending on age group and gender.
We cannot have these "one time" and you're good for life kind of thing in the police force.
I keep thinking of that balloon of a cop working at HPD Firearms Division at Headquarters that took smoke breaks every 15 minutes.
Everytime I saw him I wondered how many minutes it would take him to run 10 yards.
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Agree. Just like in the military. Annual physical fitness standards depending on age group and gender.
We cannot have these "one time" and you're good for life kind of thing in the police force.
I keep thinking of that balloon of a cop working at HPD Firearms Division at Headquarters that took smoke breaks every 15 minutes.
Everytime I saw him I wondered how many minutes it would take him to run 10 yards.
Maybe he compensates by being an excellent marksman - able to take down a fleeing suspect with one shot! :rofl: :geekdanc: :shaka:
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If you think cops have a harder job than the military due to limited backup and lone patrols, maybe we should take the HPD's advice and issue each of them a permanent partner? You know ...
Get a big dog! :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
https://youtu.be/ppwbzjiSNfo
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One of the biggest impediments to police officers' jobs isn't physical -- it's societal. The many laws, policies and now social media exposure creates an environment in which one mistake or lapse in judgement can not only end a career, but it can land the officer in jail. Qualified immunity isn't as ironclad as it once was.
https://youtu.be/GaLxgWSfhgA
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One of the biggest impediments to police officers' jobs isn't physical -- it's societal.
I'd agree with this. A good cop can avoid having to resort to physical force quite often through the use of good communication skills. Not possessing these skills can create all sorts of snowballing problems that can land cops in hot water.
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It is, in fact, very uncommon in military training. Of course rates vary by service, location and type of training/specialties.
In 2021, heat stroke incidents among recruits was just 25. The Army alone had more than 30K recruits, so that number is not really a "common" occurrence.
Military leaders are taught to take great care to avoid heat-related illness among many other physical ailments that can reduce combat effectiveness. In my training, the base would raise a red flag to indicate that the heat index was too high for physical exertion. We ate 3 meals a day in the mess hall, and every person was required to take 2 tall glasses of water in addition to any other beverages we chose. In survival training, we sought out shade, drank 1 qt of water per hour, and were instructed on the signs of heat exhaustion and dehydration.
This was in Texas during August, the hottest month of the year.
Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.
Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.
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Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.
Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.
Perhaps your "knowledge" of military training isn't as complete as you think.
There are many on here who've actually completed training during different periods in time, in different services, in various organizations, and with a variety of experiences. We're glad to share that knowledge if you'd only ask rather than relying on something you read somewhere written by .... somebody?
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Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.
Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.
If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.
I say X seconds separation cause u dont want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.
I say X seconds separation cause u dont want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Sorry, but I disagree. There should be no set number of times a Cop has to issue an order before they can fire their weapon.
Each case is going to be unique in some way. Sometimes the threat is just distraught and not actually hurting anyone. If they have a weapon like a machete, is it really a threat to several Cops if the distance is maintained and no one else is close? Getting machete man to talk might end the altercation with no injuries on either side. I don't think ordering someone "like 40 times" to disarm is productive. It's not like they didn't hear you already. If you can get them calmed down and find a way to make them see they have alternatives, they will put the machete down once they are no longer willing to die by Cop or whatever else they intended.
Maybe lawyers and police captains writing policies will prefer there be a "legal" number of times you must at a minimum tell someone to drop a weapon. But what happens when the situation doesn't allow time for that? The bad guy could open fire before the Cop even knows he's in danger. At that point, zero would be a valid number of times to voice a command ... and with zero seconds in between!
Nope. Trying to prescribe a set number of commands spaced a set number of seconds apart only means the Cop can shoot after he does that even if it was unnecessary and be cleared.
Besides, ever try to do anything many times in a given interval while under stress? You lose count, don't measure time accurately and so on. In there's a required 10 seconds between commands, are you really sure it's been 10 seconds when the adrenaline kicks in, your heart is racing, and your life is threatened? How many times have we seen where a Cop says he fired 3 times, but the mag in his firearm and the rounds recovered from the body say it was closer to 10?
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While the job itself might have more challenges, we are talking specifically about training.
Unless it's HPD's goal to give recruits heat stroke because it's more realistic with regards to actual police duty, there should be better control over the physical illnesses that can arise in training. It's much more difficult to train someone who had to go to the hospital to be treated for a preventable problem like heat stroke.
This is Hawaii, after all. Not exactly a shock that people can exceed a safe body temp with moderate physical exertion. If they want to develop a tolerance to the temperatures here, maybe they need to stop subsidizing and providing air conditioned patrol vehicles and put more officers on the streets walking a beat? Exercise, better community relations, and acclimation to the weather.
I'd like to see a remedial training class for active duty officers every 3 years just to see how many can pass the same recruitment physical training tasks.
There's a difference between Heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Heat exhaustion, which the officers had, isnt uncommon in the military, sports, and employment. It doesn't require hospitalization. Heat stroke is the deadly one.
I see heat exhaustion (correction) on the outdoor shooting ranges, hiking, races, and hardwork outside.
The stat of 25 heatstrokes in military training is probably correct. But the number of heat exhaustion is likely much higher, I'd say 10x that or more.
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There's a difference between Heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Heat exhaustion, which the officers had, isnt uncommon in the military, sports, and employment. It doesn't require hospitalization. Heat stroke is the deadly one.
I see heatstroke on the outdoor shooting ranges, hiking, races, and hardwork outside.
The stat of 25 heatstrokes in military training is probably correct. But the number of heat exhaustion is likely much higher, I'd say 10x that or more.
I'm well aware of the differences. It's also easy to look up.
Heat exhaustion is one of three heat-related illnesses, with heat cramps being the mildest
and heatstroke being the most serious.
Causes of heat illness include exposure to high temperatures, particularly when there is also
high humidity, and strenuous physical activity. Without prompt treatment, heat exhaustion can
lead to heatstroke, a life-threatening condition. Fortunately, heat exhaustion is preventable.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-exhaustion/symptoms-causes/syc-20373250
Nowhere in the OP article was the term "heat exhaustion" used. They simply said "exhaustion."
They also said:
EMS treated and transported the recruits to medical centers in serious condition.
Seems like being hospitalized in serious condition falls more under heat stroke and less under heat exhaustion, but that requires the journalists to know what they are writing about and the sources to give them accurate information.
I've seen heat exhaustion many times. It never required hospitalizations. Only heat stroke was serious enough for transport and hospitalization.
Treatment for heat stroke includes lots of ice packs, IV fluids to rehydrate, and monitoring vitals.
Treatment for heat exhaustion is to find a cool place, place ice packs on the head and inside of the elbows to cool blood as it flows, and drinking some water.
Mayo clinic agrees:
When to see a doctor
If you think you have heat exhaustion:
Stop all activity and rest.
Move to a cooler place.
Drink cool water or sports drinks.
Contact your doctor if your symptoms get worse or they don't improve within one hour.
Standard first aid for heat exhaustion.
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I'm well aware of the differences. It's also easy to look up.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-exhaustion/symptoms-causes/syc-20373250
Nowhere in the OP article was the term "heat exhaustion" used. They simply said "exhaustion."
They also said:
Seems like being hospitalized in serious condition falls more under heat stroke and less under heat exhaustion, but that requires the journalists to know what they are writing about and the sources to give them accurate information.
I've seen heat exhaustion many times. It never required hospitalizations. Only heat stroke was serious enough for transport and hospitalization.
Treatment for heat stroke includes lots of ice packs, IV fluids to rehydrate, and monitoring vitals.
Treatment for heat exhaustion is to find a cool place, place ice packs on the head and inside of the elbows to cool blood as it flows, and drinking some water.
Mayo clinic agrees:
Standard first aid for heat exhaustion.
If it's due to exhaustion, then they were just tired.
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Im sweating, it must be hot
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Heat exhaustion can lead to heat stroke in a blink of an eye. Even when diagnosed and already being treated for heat exhaustion, the victim has to be monitored closely.
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climate change
how dare you!!!
Im sweating, it must be hot
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Perhaps your "knowledge" of military training isn't as complete as you think.
There are many on here who've actually completed training during different periods in time, in different services, in various organizations, and with a variety of experiences. We're glad to share that knowledge if you'd only ask rather than relying on something you read somewhere written by .... somebody?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35608520/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20488%20incident%20cases%20of,2018%20and%20then%20declined%20in%202019%20and%202020.
"In 2021, there were 488 incident cases of heat stroke and 1,864 incident cases of heat exhaustion among active component service members of the U.S. Armed Forces."
Way more than the 25 you mentioned.
Perhaps your "knowledge" isn't as complete as you think?
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If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.
I say X seconds separation cause u don't want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Not really what I was getting at.
What I was talking about was the way a cop speaks to someone.
Does their speech style agitate someone or calm them down?
Does it give context to an instruction or is it just bossy?
Are they condescending or understanding?
Most agitated people can be brought under control by a skilled communicator but there will always be that 5% (my estimate) who just aren't going to be able to be calmed down or the situation simply doesn't allow for that avenue.
There are even some cops who amazingly manage to do the opposite, take a relatively calm person and manage to make them agitated.
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35608520/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20488%20incident%20cases%20of,2018%20and%20then%20declined%20in%202019%20and%202020.
"In 2021, there were 488 incident cases of heat stroke and 1,864 incident cases of heat exhaustion among active component service members of the U.S. Armed Forces."
Way more than the 25 you mentioned.
Perhaps your "knowledge" isn't as complete as you think?
Flapp mentioned the 25 was among recruits, so a smaller population. I'm surprised it's that low.
The 1864 number is probably undercounted and many are not reported. Much harder to not report heat stroke.
Heat stroke should be considered critical condition as a person would die or be permanently injured without major intervention. Heat exhaustion should be serious condition as it's more stable and can be reversed with cooling, water, and time.
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Flapp mentioned the 25 was among recruits, so a smaller population. I'm surprised it's that low.
The 1864 number is probably undercounted and many are not reported. Much harder to not report heat stroke.
Heat stroke should be considered critical condition as a person would die or be permanently injured without major intervention. Heat exhaustion should be serious condition as it's more stable and can be reversed with cooling, water, and time.
Good point. I only said training, not specifically recruit training so our numbers were a little apples and oranges.
According to the link they keep these numbers annually and can see the averages. To do a really fair comparison we should see what the average for HPD is, that way we would have an average per capita number to compare. We don't know if they have a couple every year or if they haven't had one in 50 years.
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If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.
I say X seconds separation cause u dont want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
The use of deadly force is a last resort when serious bodily injury or death is imminent, not the amount of time.
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35608520/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20488%20incident%20cases%20of,2018%20and%20then%20declined%20in%202019%20and%202020.
"In 2021, there were 488 incident cases of heat stroke and 1,864 incident cases of heat exhaustion among active component service members of the U.S. Armed Forces."
Way more than the 25 you mentioned.
Perhaps your "knowledge" isn't as complete as you think?
Unless you have data on all the heat-related illnesses in all the on-going and advanced training required by HPD for all officers, you are the one trying to compare apples to oranges.
The HPD story is about exhaustion bad enough to be listed in serious condition - transported by EMT and hospitalized. Sounds like heat stroke more than "exhaustion".
The story is also limited to recruits, not periodic or SWAT training. I listed the stats for military recruit trainees.
Maybe you should think about what you're posting before hitting "Enter?"
Let's say the 1800 number is more to your liking. Again, that number compared to JUST THE ARMY'S recruit total of 30K in that same year gives a ratio of 6%. Most statisticians would not call that stat a "common" occurrence, especially if they did the averages you called for. That 6% would then be subject to a margin of error which is normally in the 3% ballpark, making the remaining 3% even less "common," assuming you aren't just using raw averages which no one knowledgable of statistical analysis would ever do.
Again (and again), this is just for the Army. Add the Marines, and the percentages might go up. Add the Air Force and Navy, and it might swing the opposite direction.
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Unless you have data on all the heat-related illnesses in all the on-going and advanced training required by HPD for all officers, you are the one trying to compare apples to oranges.
The HPD story is about exhaustion bad enough to be listed in serious condition - transported by EMT and hospitalized. Sounds like heat stroke more than "exhaustion".
The story is also limited to recruits, not periodic or SWAT training. I listed the stats for military recruit trainees.
Maybe you should think about what you're posting before hitting "Enter?"
Let's say the 1800 number is more to your liking. Again, that number compared to JUST THE ARMY'S recruit total of 30K in that same year gives a ratio of 6%. Most statisticians would not call that stat a "common" occurrence, especially if they did the averages you called for. That 6% would then be subject to a margin of error which is normally in the 3% ballpark, making the remaining 3% even less "common," assuming you aren't just using raw averages which no one knowledgable of statistical analysis would ever do.
Again (and again), this is just for the Army. Add the Marines, and the percentages might go up. Add the Air Force and Navy, and it might swing the opposite direction.
My statement was that heat stroke was not that uncommon. The point was to illustrate that it was an inherent danger and not necessarily a sign of poor training/trainers.
Your snide reply was that it was only 25 times in 2021 and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. I quickly found data that showed it was much larger than your suggestion. You now seem upset that your own insult got turned back on you.
Maybe you should do some introspection about your so quickly resorting to insults.
You want to nitpick what percentage would be needed to qualify something as "not uncommon" be my guest but nothing will come of a small difference in the way we view that word.
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Not really what I was getting at.
What I was talking about was the way a cop speaks to someone.
Does their speech style agitate someone or calm them down?
Does it give context to an instruction or is it just bossy?
Are they condescending or understanding?
Most agitated people can be brought under control by a skilled communicator but there will always be that 5% (my estimate) who just aren't going to be able to be calmed down or the situation simply doesn't allow for that avenue.
There are even some cops who amazingly manage to do the opposite, take a relatively calm person and manage to make them agitated.
If theres a weapon, simple command of "drop the weapon" is all that should be required. No need reason, bargain, or talk down. This waste time and opens injury toward anyone in weapons reach.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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My statement was that heat stroke was not that uncommon. The point was to illustrate that it was an inherent danger and not necessarily a sign of poor training/trainers.
Your snide reply was that it was only 25 times in 2021 and implied I didn't know what I was talking about. I quickly found data that showed it was much larger than your suggestion. You now seem upset that your own insult got turned back on you.
Maybe you should do some introspection about your so quickly resorting to insults.
You want to nitpick what percentage would be needed to qualify something as "not uncommon" be my guest but nothing will come of a small difference in the way we view that word.
His post said 25 recruits. Then went on to talk abt the army and 30k a year training. I mean if ur looking for a reason, 1 could arue that flapp didnt say "25 army recruits", but instead "25 recruits".
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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If theres a weapon, simple command of "drop the weapon" is all that should be required. No need reason, bargain, or talk down. This waste time and opens injury toward anyone in weapons reach.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
How many times did this officer say take your hands out of the pocket?
https://youtu.be/P2jekvQ76mw
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His post said 25 recruits. Then went on to talk abt the army and 30k a year training. I mean if ur looking for a reason, 1 could arue that flapp didnt say "25 army recruits", but instead "25 recruits".
No sense trying to explain facts to someone who already knows everything or thinks if it's not part of a study available on the Internet, it doesn't count.
He pretended to know something he "read" and then got all butt hurt because his conclusion was not supported by the facts.
He wants to argue about what he meant versus what he said. He does that all the time.
All training, recruit training, elite training ... just more goal post relocations.
I'm done with him. Obviously the insults got under his skin, so at least it was somewhat productive! :rofl:
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No sense trying to explain facts to someone who already knows everything or thinks if it's not part of a study available on the Internet, it doesn't count.
He pretended to know something he "read" and then got all butt hurt because his conclusion was not supported by the facts.
He wants to argue about what he meant versus what he said. He does that all the time.
All training, recruit training, elite training ... just more goal post relocations.
I'm done with him. Obviously the insults got under his skin, so at least it was somewhat productive! :rofl:
an expert on heat-related training incidents! but asks for training classes :rofl:
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If theres a weapon, simple command of "drop the weapon" is all that should be required. No need reason, bargain, or talk down. This waste time and opens injury toward anyone in weapons reach.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
You are imagining a relatively straight forward scenario. Someone armed with a gun and where an officer or someone else is at risk leaves a very small window to try and talk them down.
Instead, imagine a situation where someone has a knife and the person is safely corralled at a distance. Or someone on the edge of a roof threatening to jump, or someone that is unarmed and needs to be arrested but isn't planning to go in without a fight.
That is the type of situation I had in mind when I was talking about communication skills. These people are all agitated in one way or another and the vast majority can be talked down without resorting to force.
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His post said 25 recruits. Then went on to talk abt the army and 30k a year training. I mean if ur looking for a reason, 1 could arue that flapp didnt say "25 army recruits", but instead "25 recruits".
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Someone here gets really upset when another talks to him the way he talks to others. Guess he doesn't like the taste of his own medicine
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Someone here gets really upset when another talks to him the way he talks to others. Guess he doesn't like the taste of his own medicine
I accept your acknowledgement that I was right and you were wrong.
:shaka:
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Someone here gets really upset when another talks to him the way he talks to others. Guess he doesn't like the taste of his own medicine
It's not about that, it's that the post did mention recruits and your post said all service members. So basically, a waste of time to try to show Flapp was wrong.
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It's not about that, it's that the post did mention recruits and your post said all service members. So basically, a waste of time to try to show Flapp was wrong.
It wasn't that I was trying to show that Flapp was wrong about the numbers of heat stroke, it was to show that Flapp was wrong to chide me in his pretentious way.
If he was going to chide me for being wrong he should have at least been right.
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It wasn't that I was trying to show that Flapp was wrong about the numbers of heat stroke, it was to show that Flapp was wrong to chide me in his pretentious way.
If he was going to chide me for being wrong he should have at least been right.
Is that the standard to which you hold yourself?
Because I can point to many instances of you being wrong and a dick simultaneously.
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Is that the standard to which you hold yourself?
Because I can point to many instances of you being wrong and a dick simultaneously.
You can find a few instances where I made an incorrect statement but you will never find a single post where I start off an interaction by being a dick. I respond to people in kind so if I am a dick to you, well then it was prima facie that you were a dick to me first.
Plus if you are going to correct someone who wasn't actually incorrect, doing it in a non-pompous way would help prevent egg on your face and unnecessary derailment of subjects.
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You can find a few instances where I made an incorrect statement but you will never find a single post where I start off an interaction by being a dick. I respond to people in kind so if I am a dick to you, well then it was prima facie that you were a dick to me first.
Plus if you are going to correct someone who wasn't actually incorrect, doing it in a non-pompous way would help prevent egg on your face and unnecessary derailment of subjects.
:stopjack: