2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: zippz on January 05, 2025, 09:21:54 PM
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What CCW insurance do you use and why?
Currently using Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) which is actually not insurance. It's like a group defense fund when self-defense is used regardless of type of weapon. I got it because of the price and Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Karl Rehn, and other self-defense experts are part of it. It costs about $100 per year and covers the usual bail bond, criminal and civil defense. It also has a newsletter and self-defense educational lessons.
I used USCCA in the past but it is expensive starting at $300 a year. The lessons are more polished and easier to understand for beginners and their unrelated firearms training programs are a bit better than the NRA. But I already take a lot of classes on self-defense law and tactics so just needed the insurance.
Old thread that covers some insurance:
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=49173.0
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Each one has it's pros and cons.
Like any retainer type, be cautious as even though the company will pay, finding a lawyer to accept may be hard. Imagine being paid a max amount of $50,000 for a Kyle Rittenhouse type trial. No attorney will take you on.
Even $100K might not be enough.
Then add in some don't operate in HI. Like the one Active Self Protection recomends, Firearms Legal Protection. I went online a few days ago and selected Hawaii and it's not available. NRA Carry Guard had the same issue precovid. IDK if they fixed it or not.
I have USCCA. They protect up to $15K for red flag defense and getting your guns back. But they've had some bad PR by 1 YT'er. Guns and Gadgets said that the prankster who got shot by a guy named Austin was dropped by USCCA. IDK the full details, but some guys approached him in a food court with his phone and he was quick on the trigger (video shows this). So IDK how, but his public defender got him out of it and it was ruled self defense. GUns and Gadgets mentioned this specific situation and he asked USCCA why and no reply. At the time, Guns and Gadgets was sponsered by USCCA.
Then add in non-retainer type, you have to pay it back if you're guilty in court. But this isnt' a concern as if you're going to jail for many years, money is the last of your issues.
I look at it this way, something is better than nothing. Like if you chose to CCW a glock, it's better than not ccwing.
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you forgot the smiley or j/k...
Each one has it's pros and cons.
Like any retainer type, be cautious as even though the company will pay, finding a lawyer to accept may be hard. Imagine being paid a max amount of $50,000 for a Kyle Rittenhouse type trial. No attorney will take you on.
Even $100K might not be enough.
Then add in some don't operate in HI. Like the one Active Self Protection recomends, Firearms Legal Protection. I went online a few days ago and selected Hawaii and it's not available. NRA Carry Guard had the same issue precovid. IDK if they fixed it or not.
I have USCCA. They protect up to $15K for red flag defense and getting your guns back. But they've had some bad PR by 1 YT'er. Guns and Gadgets said that the prankster who got shot by a guy named Austin was dropped by USCCA. IDK the full details, but some guys approached him in a food court with his phone and he was quick on the trigger (video shows this). So IDK how, but his public defender got him out of it and it was ruled self defense. GUns and Gadgets mentioned this specific situation and he asked USCCA why and no reply. At the time, Guns and Gadgets was sponsered by USCCA.
Then add in non-retainer type, you have to pay it back if you're guilty in court. But this isnt' a concern as if you're going to jail for many years, money is the last of your issues.
I look at it this way, something is better than nothing. Like if you chose to CCW a glock, it's better than not ccwing.
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you forgot the smiley or j/k...
No focus.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmppJl3fBgM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmppJl3fBgM
Interesting, gave up on USCCA and went to Attorneys on Retainer. Very interesting. Can't wait for the followup in a couple years.
Looked AOR up and it's a very different program from a couple years ago. Could be worth another look. Pricey though.
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I currently have USCCA but have been thinking of just dropping CCW insurance altogether. I originally purchased CCW insurance after I got my NV permit
and used to go to Vegas couple times a year. Haven’t left HI since 2019 due to my wife's health makes it difficult to travel long distances. I also didn’t bother
to get a HI CCW because of all the restrictions. USCCA prices go up every year and it is around $43 a moth for the plan I have. The above video convinced me to
just drop them and will do so before next month’s payment is due.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmppJl3fBgM
2nd youtuber promoting atty on retainer (aor). 2nd guy also who was sponsored by uscca now.
I take what both say with a grain of salt.
"Im no longer on contract with uscca".
Both prob left out "im on contract w/ AOR to bash uscca and uptalk AOR".
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Guns and Gadgets jumpted aboard AOR. Can't trust influencers on youtube on anything as they get paid by sponsors and can't say anything bad about their product.
A lot of gun influencers on youtube dropped Sonoran Valley Institute (gunsmithing school) as sponsors because it was a scam school. Recently there's been outrage on the Honey App that a lot of influencers were marketing for a long time. Turns out the app was redirecting referral codes from the influencers to the Honey App and in turn stealing income from the influencers without them realizing it.
It's all about the money and influencers will do anything for it.
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Just remembered AOR tried to sponsor me as an instructor and for HIFICO a few years ago. I didn't care for their program back then as it only covered attorneys fees (no bail, expert witnesses, etc) and told them I'm not comfortable marketing something I'm not familiar with.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHisYEotf6M
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Im having trouble looking up what the retainer amount to be paid is. The sample agreement has no dollar amounts on it as it's left blank.
This is important because if the retainer is very low, then good luck finding an attorney in their network to represent you.
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I don't plan to get any SD insurance after I drop USCCA at the end of the month. I only carry a Taser, a Mace pepper gun and a 3 inch fixed blade. If HI sensitive places laws get overturned and I get a HI CCW, then I'll get SD insurance again.
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I don't plan to get any SD insurance after I drop USCCA at the end of the month. I only carry a Taser, a Mace pepper gun and a 3 inch fixed blade. If HI sensitive places laws get overturned and I get a HI CCW, then I'll get SD insurance again.
You don't have to carry a firearm to use firearm insurance. Shooting a burglar can get you arrested and charged.
Even if the action was justified, they can still drag you into court costing you tens of thousands in lawyer fees plus bail bonds, lost wages, replacing a confiscated gun seized as evidence, expert witnesses, lab tests, etc. Depending on the charges and the evidence against you, the cost to defend yourself will vary.
If things don't go well, there will be the cost of appeals and litigating civil suits.
You don't have to find trouble outside the home. Trouble can easily find you. Might be someone breaking into the wrong house by mistake looking for an ex or whoever else.
The point is, if you keep a firearm for protection, you should consider protection in the event you ever need to use it.
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Where I live in Puna, gunshots are common. You will hear several a week and people here don’t bother to call the cops. Lots of wild pigs to take care of disposal.
I will be 75 in 3 months and not once needed SD insurance so I will play the odds. I got maybe another 10-15 years if I’m lucky and for some strange reason, the older I get,
the less I worry about what may or may not happen.
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Where I live in Puna, gunshots are common. You will hear several a week and people here don’t bother to call the cops. Lots of wild pigs to take care of disposal.
I will be 75 in 3 months and not once needed SD insurance so I will play the odds. I got maybe another 10-15 years if I’m lucky and for some strange reason, the older I get,
the less I worry about what may or may not happen.
Life insurance is for the people who depend on you. If you die in your prime, you might have a good amount of insurance to make sure your family doesn't lose the house and that the kids' have the choice to attend college.
As the family grows up, leaves the home to start their own lives and careers, and your house is paid off or close to it, car is paid off, etc., plus whatever retirement saving you have can replace the security insurance once provided.
Same for firearms. If your protection is the only consideration, then you can take risks that only affect you. If you don't have to worry about the financial burden of a self defense shooting being carried by your family, then you can rest easier than someone who doesn't want to have to put the house up for a bail bond or get a mortgage on the equity to pay for lawyers. And if a civil suit finds you liable, maybe losing your house totally is possible.
The level of risk varies with each person's financial resources and number of dependents as does the tolerance for risk one might have.
There's no magic answer -- a one-size-fits-all situation. Each person must do the research, look at the risks, and make their choices.
Insurance is always a gamble. Some insurance is mandatory by law or lender contract, such as auto and homeowner's. Other is 100% optional, as is Life and Firearm/Legal assistance. Insurance offers peace of mind when you don't need it and a welcome safety net when you do need it.
Insurance is kind of like carrying concealed every single day: you may never need it your entire life, but when you do need it, you'll be very glad you have it.
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You don't have to carry a firearm to use firearm insurance. Shooting a burglar can get you arrested and charged.
Even if the action was justified, they can still drag you into court costing you tens of thousands in lawyer fees plus bail bonds, lost wages, replacing a confiscated gun seized as evidence, expert witnesses, lab tests, etc. Depending on the charges and the evidence against you, the cost to defend yourself will vary.
If things don't go well, there will be the cost of appeals and litigating civil suits.
You don't have to find trouble outside the home. Trouble can easily find you. Might be someone breaking into the wrong house by mistake looking for an ex or whoever else.
The point is, if you keep a firearm for protection, you should consider protection in the event you ever need to use it.
AOR doesn't cover civil suits. But USCCA might. But you gotta be found not guilty or not charged with a crime 1st.
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Guns and Gadgets jumpted aboard AOR. Can't trust influencers on youtube on anything as they get paid by sponsors and can't say anything bad about their product.
A lot of gun influencers on youtube dropped Sonoran Valley Institute (gunsmithing school) as sponsors because it was a scam school. Recently there's been outrage on the Honey App that a lot of influencers were marketing for a long time. Turns out the app was redirecting referral codes from the influencers to the Honey App and in turn stealing income from the influencers without them realizing it.
It's all about the money and influencers will do anything for it.
I 4got to add that it seems like the YT'er are knit picking. It would be like if you had car insurance and totalled your car and they didn't buy you a brand new car to replace you 2002 Toyota Corolla. Only USAA has something close taht they will replace it with the same kind of car you lost or the next closest model. But never a brand new car for something like this example.
That DoorDash (Austin) guy was quick on the trigger and I don't see how it could have been justified.
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Looking at a few of the comparison charts for current insurance/legal coverage plans, there's one thing that would be a deal-breaker for me at this point: they call it "claw-back".
Basically, a lot of insurance will not cover you if your shooting was not ruled justified in self defense. The two main scenarios have been; (1) the insurance made you pay during the trial then reimburses you after being acquitted, or (2) the insurance pays defense costs, but if you are not acquitted, they "claw-back" the money they put out for your expenses.
I'm seeing more options that include a "no claw-back" feature, so if they pay your costs ahead of a verdict, they won't claw-back that money from you if found criminally at fault. That to me means they will do a more thorough look into your case before agreeing to pay costs. If they don't see a clear-cut case of self defense, I imagine they will decline to cover you, but i haven't checked it out to that degree yet.
Anyway, I thought that might be something to share. Maybe someone doing research can fill in the facts a little more thoroughly.
:shaka:
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Here's some information from ACLDN. It's a relatively small network with 22,000 members and $4,000,000 currently in the defense fund. Very no frills as there is no fancy marketing and the website looks very basic. Since there's essentially no marketing, most of the members are likely students who took Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, and Karl Rehns class or referred by those students.
33 incidents where funds were disbursed in 14 years. I'm a bit surprised by 18% fatal shootings. I thought it'd be significantly lower.
(https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/2024/01_Jan/incidents-type.png)
Total funds disbursed over 13 years: The amount of funds used is very small compared to what I expected and includes 7 homicides in defense. It's explained that none of the cases went to trial. Most of them are attorneys used for consultation and to check on things.
(https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/2022/01-2022_Journal/Expense-web.png)
2016 post on denials:
Only two Network members have asked for help and been denied after being involved in what was clearly not self defense (one entailed destruction of public utilities while intoxicated and another left the safety of his home to go outside and fire a shot to frighten away a dog). We fully explored all possible avenues of assisting, but when unable to turn up any elements of self defense, we regretfully declined, explaining that the Legal Defense Fund must be reserved to help members who have no recourse but to defend themselves or be killed or injured, elements that were entirely absent in situations underlying the two denials.
Information on cases denied and accepted.
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/august-2024-presidents-message
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What I learned from the above is that incidents where an attorney is needed is very rare and the costs are typically much lower. What makes the biggest difference is knowing the laws and being well trained in self-defense. Only 1% of CCW licensees have training beyond a basic CCW course as stated here and is a good podcast to listen to: https://ccwsafe.com/resources/in-self-defense-podcast-110-karl-rehn-pt-1/
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So with regard to the things the YT'er are saying about USCCA, I mentioned the prank one and here's more info on the Kayla Giles that they're blasting.
USCCA did pay $50K for a retainer.
But...
She and her exhusband had problems and custody battle going on. He wanted to take their daughter to a party and planned to meet up to exchange her.
She bought a gun and USCCA coverage 12 days prior to her shooting him because she was afraid of him.
She claims self defense.
Deleted text messages on her phone state that he wanted to meet at the police station. She said no and Walmart was the 2nd choice. Imagine being so afraid that you had to buy a gun, but refused to meet at a police station to exchange custody of your child, but chose Walmart instead.
Deleted internet search history on her laptop was somethign ike: Justifiable homicide, justifiable homicide in a car, Louisiana statute of limitation for homicide, etc...
Her friend testified that she said she wanted to kill her ex and asked to borrow a gun.
Her daughter testified that her dad didn't lunge at her like she stated. But the child is young so take with a grain of salt.
I think there's more, but I can't remember.
On 1 occassion, he had a black eye from her.
So in the end, she was found guilty of pre-meditated murder.
I think she knew how to push his buttons and she was the aggressor. So add in all the above and sounds like the state got this one correct and so was USCCA.
There is more than 1 YTer bashing USCCA for this specific situation.
I also question Armed Scholar as his vids have become more click baity. But I get it, money talks.
USCCA"s problem is that they're silent on all the accusations. Maybe due to legal reasons, but they should at least come out and state so more often. They need a PR person that's good. And having Tim Kennedy, who doesn't think under 21 should own a rifle is a bad option as their spokesman.
So in the end, each company has it's pros and cons. AOR isn't as tested as USCCA due to the lack of members compared to USCCA. Only time will tell.
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So with regard to the things the YT'er are saying about USCCA, I mentioned the prank one and here's more info on the Kayla Giles that they're blasting.
USCCA did pay $50K for a retainer.
But...
Thanks, I didn't know much about the Giles case and it make sense denying coverage based on that.
For the Coley case, it's a bit strange for USCCA to deny coverage but Coley did state he turned down help from USCCA and it's possible he was lucky and got a great public defender.
Be very suspicious about claims for or against something on youtube by influencers that are getting paid to do it.
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Thanks, I didn't know much about the Giles case and it make sense denying coverage based on that.
For the Coley case, it's a bit strange for USCCA to deny coverage but Coley did state he turned down help from USCCA and it's possible he was lucky and got a great public defender.
Be very suspicious about claims for or against something on youtube by influencers that are getting paid to do it.
Since no $ was offered up like how Giles was, this is the dangerous part. Someone is making a judgement and was wrong since his atty did get him to be found not guilty as it was self defense. But I get it due to the vid being out there.
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Since no $ was offered up like how Giles was, this is the dangerous part. Someone is making a judgement and was wrong since his atty did get him to be found not guilty as it was self defense. But I get it due to the vid being out there.
Clarification on wrong choice of words, I didn't mean USCCA denied coverage rather they didn't fund the defense.
No matter what company is used, there will be a person or persons that make a judgement and decide to cover or not. Even if a claim is obviously murder or clearly self-defense, someonel has to research it and make a decision on it. The issue of insurance denials is overblown.
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Clarification on wrong choice of words, I didn't mean USCCA denied coverage rather they didn't fund the defense.
No matter what company is used, there will be a person or persons that make a judgement and decide to cover or not. Even if a claim is obviously murder or clearly self-defense, someonel has to research it and make a decision on it. The issue of insurance denials is overblown.
You're right, USCCA denied Austin coverage. Which is why he had to use a public defender.
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You're right, USCCA denied Austin coverage. Which is why he had to use a public defender.
USCCA's claim is they didn't deny coverage rather Alan turned it down. Alan said in an email that he turned down USCCA coverage and went with the public defender. It's wierd and unusual, but it's also possible he got a great public defender he wanted to stick with. There are sometimes good public defenders that are better than private practice ones. Sometimes great private practice attorneys volunteer to be public defenders as a service to the community.
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Another one bites the dust on USCCA. :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op1suMmAme0
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Another one bites the dust on USCCA. :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op1suMmAme0
With the youtube prankster, I question GnG's input. Like Zippz said, wait a few years to see if he has anything bad to say about AOR once his contract is up.
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I liked the explanation/rationale that Armed Scholar mentioned about difference between insurance group (racket) vs attorneys. Not sure what is true/fact, but I think that is a key consideration.
I'm up for renewal soon and will definitely be looking into more. Appreciate and also wary of the guntuber/influencer angle. I've watched some of G&G's videos and to me he's just someone who tries a bunch of stuff. He seemed very much more of a shill than an objective product reviewer.
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I liked the explanation/rationale that Armed Scholar mentioned about difference between insurance group (racket) vs attorneys. Not sure what is true/fact, but I think that is a key consideration.
I'm up for renewal soon and will definitely be looking into more. Appreciate and also wary of the guntuber/influencer angle. I've watched some of G&G's videos and to me he's just someone who tries a bunch of stuff. He seemed very much more of a shill than an objective product reviewer.
Can you find out what the retainer amount is for AOR? I couldn't find any info on their website.
Another things is to look up which attorney's are in their network that can practice in HI.
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Can you find out what the retainer amount is for AOR? I couldn't find any info on their website.
Another things is to look up which attorney's are in their network that can practice in HI.
I thought you knew everything. . .
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I thought you knew everything. . .
I am very logical and objective. But like to use hypoticals, so I could not find the above info.
All jokes aside, if their retainer limit is $500K, then I would think about changing from USCCA.
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Can you find out what the retainer amount is for AOR? I couldn't find any info on their website.
Another things is to look up which attorney's are in their network that can practice in HI.
They have an office in Hawaii.
https://attorneysforfreedom.com/locations/hawaii/
I think you might be confusing AOR with other types of prepaid legal plans.
They don't pay a retainer for your lawyer. They ARE your lawyers. Your premiums are your retainer for the Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm.
AOR is not insurance. As such, AOR clients are not subject to the countless
exclusions included in many insurance policies. Unlike an insurance company,
AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For
Freedom Law Firm which has been successfully representing clients in major
felony matters continuously since 1997.
As such, AOR is not merely indemnifying a client but rather providing a
legal service.
AOR is a retainer fee agreement to hire The Attorneys For Freedom Law
Firm for limited-scope legal representation in the event of a self-defense-
related incident that is reasonably expected to result in criminal charges.
Nor is AOR a prepaid legal plan or referral service as those terms are used in
Model Rule 7.2.
https://attorneysonretainer.us/faqs/
https://attorneysonretainer.us/plans/
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They have an office in Hawaii.
https://attorneysforfreedom.com/locations/hawaii/
I think you might be confusing AOR with other types of prepaid legal plans.
They don't pay a retainer for your lawyer. They ARE your lawyers. Your premiums are your retainer for the Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm.
https://attorneysonretainer.us/faqs/
https://attorneysonretainer.us/plans/
They mentioned retainer many times. And just because a company offers X amount, doesn't mean that the attorney has to accept that amount. Unless it's in their contract to accept X amount for any reason. Then I would like to see that. What no one is mentioning is this part. Or if not about money, then maybe said lawyers in the network are too "busy" to accept your case.
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AOR is the not insurance company that isn't. Doesn't seem to be any difference in practice than an actual insurance company.
They say they'll pay for defense in criminal acts, but I'm pretty sure they won't defend you if it's legit murder or robbery.
Also a bit pricey.
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AOR is the not insurance company that isn't. Doesn't seem to be any difference in practice than an actual insurance company.
They say they'll pay for defense in criminal acts, but I'm pretty sure they won't defend you if it's legit murder or robbery.
Also a bit pricey.
I think the opposite. They will offer to pay, but finding a lawyer who will accept, esp if it has to be in their network is another issue.
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AOR is the not insurance company that isn't. Doesn't seem to be any difference in practice than an actual insurance company.
They say they'll pay for defense in criminal acts, but I'm pretty sure they won't defend you if it's legit murder or robbery.
Also a bit pricey.
Correct. They won't defend you unless your case is in their opinion a bonafide self defense case.
However, if you are charged, tried, and convicted, unlike insurance, AOR will not claw back the money they spent defending and supporting you. You owe AOR nothing if the jury convicts.
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I think the opposite. They will offer to pay, but finding a lawyer who will accept, esp if it has to be in their network is another issue.
Did you read the FAQs? There's nothing in any of their descriptions that says that.
AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm
A firm is not a network. You're too used to the HMO style insurance and legal defense policies.
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Did you read the FAQs? There's nothing in any of their descriptions that says that.
AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm
A firm is not a network. You're too used to the HMO style insurance and legal defense policies.
Yes, they do say that. But also mention "retainer". Isn't a retainer, I give the lawyer X amount and that's the downpayment for them to defend you. So a higher profile case like Rittenhouse or even if HI wants to make an example out of you, a $50,000 retainer isn't enough. So what if what you're being charged with is estimate at say $250,000 in legal bills. Will AOR pay the remainder to the lawyer? Or will they guarantee that a lawyer in their network will take your case?
Or am I understanding incorrectly on how a retainer works?
I ask cause there was 1 law firm who wanted $100,000 to challenge our sensitive places law. That's just to get started. There would be additional cost depending how far up the lawsuit goes.
So what I'm asking is the fine print, which I have seen USCCA's one. I find it odd there is no mention of the retainer amount maximum.
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However, if you are charged, tried, and convicted, unlike insurance, AOR will not claw back the money they spent defending and supporting you. You owe AOR nothing if the jury convicts.
Do other CCW insurance actually clawback funds? I could see that if there's proof the defendant lied. Like killing a person in self defense and in a trial what he told the attorneys wasn't true and there's overwhelming obvious evidence it was murder.
Maybe AOR has a bit more leeway in some situations, but it feels like they're making mountains out of molehills. That they're bringing up points that could theoretically happen but don't in real life. That they're taking advantage of people's fears to market their product.
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Yes, they do say that. But also mention "retainer". Isn't a retainer, I give the lawyer X amount and that's the downpayment for them to defend you. So a higher profile case like Rittenhouse or even if HI wants to make an example out of you, a $50,000 retainer isn't enough. So what if what you're being charged with is estimate at say $250,000 in legal bills. Will AOR pay the remainder to the lawyer? Or will they guarantee that a lawyer in their network will take your case?
Or am I understanding incorrectly on how a retainer works?
I ask cause there was 1 law firm who wanted $100,000 to challenge our sensitive places law. That's just to get started. There would be additional cost depending how far up the lawsuit goes.
So what I'm asking is the fine print, which I have seen USCCA's one. I find it odd there is no mention of the retainer amount maximum.
Show me the statements that include the word retainer. i have no idea the context or section you're talking about.
The word i see is in the context of the member agreement. The retainer is your monthly/annual payment. it guarantees you an attorney is available to handle your case. No additional Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any Self-Defense Legal Matter.
A retainer is normally paid to a lawyer who placed it into an escrow account. As the attorney performs billable services, they withdraw from that account funds necessary to cover their services us to that point in time.
That's not how this works. As you pay into the AOR system, that money is immediately spent. It goes to help pay for all members' legal needs and guarantee you representation in a SD case if ever needed.
Other than the “Retainer Legal Fee” as detailed below in Section II (A), no additional
Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any
Self-Defense Legal Matter. Any costs or expenses necessary for effective legal
representation for Self-Defense Legal Matters shall be the responsibility of the Attorney.
C. The Client agrees to remit the payment of ________ per month solely for six distinct
purposes:
1. To ensure the Attorney’s availability to represent the Client for any Self-Defense
Legal Matter as outlined in Section III (A) (subject to conflicts of interest) and
commenced with a free Strategy Session on the Self-Defense Legal Matter;
2. To provide legal representation to the Client either as a defendant or as a victim in
either state or federal court with no additional Attorney’s fees for any Self-Defense
Legal Matter as listed below in Section III;
3. To receive legal information and advice concerning topics relevant to the Program
in a periodic newsletter delivered electronically;
4. To provide payments or reimbursement for Costs and Expenses on Self-Defense
Legal Matters as outlined in Section IV;
5. To have the opportunity to hire the Attorney on selected Non-Self-Defense Legal
Matters at a 35% discount of the Attorney’s usual hourly rate; and
6. To have free access to the annual conference with the Attorney.
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Do other CCW insurance actually clawback funds? I could see that if there's proof the defendant lied. Like killing a person in self defense and in a trial what he told the attorneys wasn't true and there's overwhelming obvious evidence it was murder.
Maybe AOR has a bit more leeway in some situations, but it feels like they're making mountains out of molehills. That they're bringing up points that could theoretically happen but don't in real life. That they're taking advantage of people's fears to market their product.
NRA insurance avoided clawback by making you pay your own legal defense costs up front, then deciding if they would reimburse you later when you filed a claim. They did offer to front you money for things like a bail bond or replacement piece, but if you lost the case, they had to get their money back. Legally, they can't be viewed as subsidizing a crime, and if you're convicted, the NRA paying your legal fees would essentially be doing that. Same reason go fund me doesn't allow campaigns to pay the legal expenses of anyone charged with a crime.
Most insurance now offers up-front funding for all those costs associated with dealing with the court system. Bail bonds, replacing confiscated guns as evidence, experts, attorneys, etc.
As of July 2023, USCCA has not tried to recoup monies paid on behalf of members involved in a self defense case. However, the member agreement specifically says they have the right to do so if they investigate and determine you acted in violation of the law. One instance discussed in the forum was using Wasp Spray for SD. USCCA covers you for SD in all forms, not just firearm use. There may be a law federally that forbids the use of Wasp Spray for that purpose, so that would allow USCCA to clawback anything they may have already paid out. Same applies if you use a chemical like mace that's not legal in your jurisdiction.
Basically, if you're prepping to defend yourself, others and property, you should call your insurance carrier and run it past them first. An impromptu weapon such as a piece of rebar on the ground should be okay, but carrying rebar in your truck where you can get to it might not be.
Based on this comparison in Jul 2023, USCCA is the only one in the list that includes a recoupment (clawback) clause. If there's one, there may be more, so it pays to really read the policy for words like recoup or recoupment.
https://www.concealedcarry.com/self-defense-gun-owner-insurance-programs-compared/
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Show me the statements that include the word retainer. i have no idea the context or section you're talking about.
The word i see is in the context of the member agreement. The retainer is your monthly/annual payment. it guarantees you an attorney is available to handle your case. No additional Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any Self-Defense Legal Matter.
A retainer is normally paid to a lawyer who placed it into an escrow account. As the attorney performs billable services, they withdraw from that account funds necessary to cover their services us to that point in time.
That's not how this works. As you pay into the AOR system, that money is immediately spent. It goes to help pay for all members' legal needs and guarantee you representation in a SD case if ever needed.
From their webpage when you ask to show you the statement that mention "retainer". Then GnG says it often as well in his YT vid bashing USCCA.
A,"OR is not insurance. As such, AOR clients are not subject to the countless exclusions included in many insurance policies. Unlike an insurance company, AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm which has been successfully representing clients in major felony matters continuously since 1997. As such, AOR is not merely indemnifying a client but rather providing a legal service. AOR is a retainer fee agreement to hire The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm for limited-scope legal representation in the event of a self-defense-related incident that is reasonably expected to result in criminal charges. Nor is AOR a prepaid legal plan or referral service as those terms are used in Model Rule 7.2. "
But in another tab, they say they will cover 100% of the criminal and civil cost.
And they say there are 3 requirments for there to be "coverage". But if in a civil suit, #1 isn't met "You are charged, or reasonably concerned about being charged, with either a felony or misdemeanor crime;"
These are just 2 areas that conflict and again, I cannot get the fine print. I have read the USCCA policy before I signed up.
AOR seems too good to be true. To cover you for doing something illegal like having no CCW permit is interesting.
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From their webpage when you ask to show you the statement that mention "retainer". Then GnG says it often as well in his YT vid bashing USCCA.
A,"OR is not insurance. As such, AOR clients are not subject to the countless exclusions included in many insurance policies. Unlike an insurance company, AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm which has been successfully representing clients in major felony matters continuously since 1997. As such, AOR is not merely indemnifying a client but rather providing a legal service. AOR is a retainer fee agreement to hire The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm for limited-scope legal representation in the event of a self-defense-related incident that is reasonably expected to result in criminal charges. Nor is AOR a prepaid legal plan or referral service as those terms are used in Model Rule 7.2. "
But in another tab, they say they will cover 100% of the criminal and civil cost.
And they say there are 3 requirments for there to be "coverage". But if in a civil suit, #1 isn't met "You are charged, or reasonably concerned about being charged, with either a felony or misdemeanor crime;"
These are just 2 areas that conflict and again, I cannot get the fine print. I have read the USCCA policy before I signed up.
I will contact them to send me a sample of their fine print. AOR seems too good to be true. To cover you for doing something illegal like having no CCW permit is interesting.
AOR spells out all those "too good to be true" crimes you might need to fight. They cover them as crimes of non-violence. They are administrative laws, like having an illegal or unregistered firearm, negligent discharge, gun free zone violations, and so on.
For a civil case against you, they will offer you representation if it arises from a SD incident. However, they won't pay any judgements if you lose the lawsuit, like medical costs, pain & suffering, lost wages, ...
Any non-SD cases can be handled by them as well, but at a deeply discounted hourly rate.
Regarding self-defense-related legal matters only, AOR includes 100% of your
attorneys’ fees through trial and any additional court costs and 3rd party expenses
necessary for effective representation.
Victim’s rights representation, civil defense, and any necessary appeals are also
included without any additional fees, costs, or expenses.
As AOR is not insurance but instead utilizes the in-house team of lawyers from
The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm, there is no issue with “limits.”
Unless prohibited by your state, AOR also offers:
-- up to $50,000 toward bail,
-- $4,000 toward scene cleanup,
-- $1,500 toward mental health counseling services, and
-- $1,000 toward firearm replacement reimbursement.
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I think I may buy AOR and keep my USCCA.
Thanks for all who chimed into this post.
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I think I may buy AOR and keep my USCCA.
Thanks for all who chimed into this post.
The odds are very remote that you'd need high coverage from the CCW insurance, much less needing 2 coverages.
Better to save that money and use it towards a good firearms and law class. Tom Givens has a good instructor level course that spends 1.5 days on firearms and 1.5 days in the classroom on the legal aspects of self-defense. Massad Ayoobs Mag 40 is a student level firearms class that delves deep into the legalities too.
https://rangemaster.com/
https://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-40/
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What CCW insurance do you use and why?
Currently using Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) which is actually not insurance. It's like a group defense fund when self-defense is used regardless of type of weapon. I got it because of the price and Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Karl Rehn, and other self-defense experts are part of it. It costs about $100 per year and covers the usual bail bond, criminal and civil defense. It also has a newsletter and self-defense educational lessons.
I used USCCA in the past but it is expensive starting at $300 a year. The lessons are more polished and easier to understand for beginners and their unrelated firearms training programs are a bit better than the NRA. But I already take a lot of classes on self-defense law and tactics so just needed the insurance.
Old thread that covers some insurance:
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=49173.0
Did you ever look into a standard umbrella policy? I know a $1 million is a common umbrella coverage amount, that would seem to be enough to pay lawyers and it would cover other things you might encounter, not just a weapon use.
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Did you ever look into a standard umbrella policy? I know a $1 million is a common umbrella coverage amount, that would seem to be enough to pay lawyers and it would cover other things you might encounter, not just a weapon use.
A personal umbrella policy is a "follow" form. WHich means it has to be covered by your homeowners liability coverage first in order for the umbrella to kick in. Many carriers exclude firearm type incidents for liability. So no, then even the umbrella won't cover.
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So I had someone from AOR call me after I emailed them yesterday.
1) They will cover for civil defense, which means your lawyer fees. But they won't cover if you lose and the other party is awarded any money for damages. Or any settlement.
2) They have lawyers in HI and in AZ who can practice in HI. There is no way that you won't be able to not have a lawyer assigned to you. I asked about retainer limit of say $50K for a Rittenhouse type cost and lawyers may decline your case due to it's heavy cost.
3) If you go to NV/live in , they have to apply to practice there pro hac or something. Compared to #2 above, they're already g2g in HI.
4) They do not cover for red flag charges. USCCA does and will pay up to $15,000 for a lawyer.
In the next 2 months, they will be adjusting their program, but adding stuff. Not removing things.
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A personal umbrella policy is a "follow" form. WHich means it has to be covered by your homeowners liability coverage first in order for the umbrella to kick in. Many carriers exclude firearm type incidents for liability. So no, then even the umbrella won't cover.
I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car. At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability. Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused. I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$.
Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables. For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc. Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited.
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I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car. At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability. Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused. I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$.
Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables. For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc. Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited.
Umbrella is for liability only and not your property. Many homeowners cover for some firearms itself like $1K or so. Then you can increase the cap to like $4K, but nothing like $20K worth of firearms. Same with jelwrey. But for jewelry, you can "schedule" each item separately on your homeowners. This means you usually need an appraisal and detailed description of the item.
So knowing the guns you have, you will need a separate firearms only policy.
Check your homeowners. If it doesn't exclude it, then it's usually covered. So there should be a mention of a cap for firearms itself. There will also be a firearms liability exclusion somewhere too.
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I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car. At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability. Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused. I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$.
Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables. For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc. Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited.
State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.
Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.
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State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.
Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.
The $1000 limit on firearms is for property loss, not liability. if you need more coverage for any high value property including firearms, jewelry, designer accessories, etc., you need a rider on your homeowner's policy. In my experience, those riders are so expensive, 4-5 years of paying the rider cost would cover another $5,000 in property. The higher the value of the goods, the higher the premium for the rider alone. Better to pay those premiums to yourself and build your savings account to cover those high value articles.
The problem with generic liability policies like homeowners is they normally exclude intentional acts. if you shoot a prowler in the wee hours of the morning, even if it's officially ruled self defense, the act was intentional -- you decided to shoot someone.
In short, the insurance company can't become an ATM for policy holders who cause damage or injuries on purpose. Unfortunately, the exclusion is broad enough to exclude self defense with or without using a firearm. Not all policies are the same, so you need to ask or read the exclusions for yourself, keeping in mind lawyers wrote these exclusions for a reason.
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AOR also had a follow up email sent to me about not meeting step 1 (of 3 steps) for a civil suit. Like I am not being charged or think I will be charged. Which has to be met for the criminal defense to kick in. With regard to a civil suit, you are still covered defense wise, even though #1 wasn't fulfilled.
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1) Umbrella is for liability only and not your property. 2) Many homeowners cover for some firearms itself like $1K or so. Then you can increase the cap to like $4K, but nothing like $20K worth of firearms. Same with jelwrey. 3) But for jewelry, you can "schedule" each item separately on your homeowners. This means you usually need an appraisal and detailed description of the item.
So knowing the guns you have, you will need a separate firearms only policy.
Check your homeowners. If it doesn't exclude it, then it's usually covered. So there should be a mention of a cap for firearms itself. There will also be a firearms liability exclusion somewhere too.
1) To clarify, I meant total/all of my policies. The basic plans with the umbrella. Not just the umbrella.
2) Yes. I'd have to check. But bottom line is my friend was well aware that whatever coverage would be in the basic wasn't anywhere near what I own (hypothetically of course).
3) Yup, understand that. In my case, my agent has same/similar coverage that I have. To clarify, in our case, I think it was either the coverage wasn't "worth it" or wouldn't cover all of what we had. I'll have to revisit. I ended up getting separate insurance anyways. And yes, undahstahn that have to get appraisal. . .
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The $1000 limit on firearms is for property loss, not liability. if you need more coverage for any high value property including firearms, jewelry, designer accessories, etc., you need a rider on your homeowner's policy. In my experience, those riders are so expensive, 4-5 years of paying the rider cost would cover another $5,000 in property. The higher the value of the goods, the higher the premium for the rider alone. Better to pay those premiums to yourself and build your savings account to cover those high value articles.
The problem with generic liability policies like homeowners is they normally exclude intentional acts. if you shoot a prowler in the wee hours of the morning, even if it's officially ruled self defense, the act was intentional -- you decided to shoot someone.
In short, the insurance company can't become an ATM for policy holders who cause damage or injuries on purpose. Unfortunately, the exclusion is broad enough to exclude self defense with or without using a firearm. Not all policies are the same, so you need to ask or read the exclusions for yourself, keeping in mind lawyers wrote these exclusions for a reason.
Thinking back, I think that was the case for my policy. Which is why my agent recommended going elsewhere (not the rider route).
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State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.
Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.
For me, the primary driver for going with umbrella was that I had other properties to cover. Where I viewed the umbrella as more of a "flexible" coverage account. I since have less property to cover, so lesser concern/priority for me.
Definitely wasn't thinking about coverage for a criminal or civil liability for SD.
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Best thing, go Vegas, win at least $10M Mega Millions jackpot, put $1M side for your SD attorney fund.
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or you could watch their youtube channel and learn...
https://www.youtube.com/@AttorneysOnRetainer
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4hgB8-p5Y
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The links in this article go day by day of the trial. Lots more details that what's in the video here.
https://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/2022/03/09/companies-dismissed-kayla-giles-lawsuit-but-ruling-leaves-door-open/9442166002/
I'm not saying USCCA did anything wrong or not, but given the fact the woman was convicted, it's obvious there's enough information and evidence to believe she was not justified in the shooting.
USCCA determined she was not defending herself from an assault after they retained a lawyer for $50K. That lawyer, after looking at all the prosecution's evidence made the call that the customer's coverage should be denied.
The timing of events alone are suspicious:
"...she had bought the Ruger LCP .380 pistol 12 days before the shooting at a Dallas store."
Some texts and computer messages/emails said things just before the shooting like,
"I may make the news."
"... on the day of the shooting, a call from Giles' phone lasting 13 seconds was made
to 911 at 11:14 a.m.
Then, a 3 minute and 2 second call was placed at 11:20 a.m. to the insurance company
from which she had purchased a policy to cover legal fees in the event of a shooting."
She shot her husband, called 911, talked for 13 seconds, then 6 or 7 minutes later called USCCA to report the shooting. Who would do that so soon after the event? I would be a little bit shocked to have shot a family member or ex in a Walmart parking lot.
Since i wasn't in the courtroom or jury room, i don't know what they heard, saw and weighed against her. All i know is what was reported.
i guess this might be the first time USCCA denied coverage for a customer claiming self defense. I'd have to do more searching to know for sure.
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I have experience with all 3 organizations, USCCA, AOR, and ACLDN.
I've been to the USCCA conference and talked to President Tim Schmidt for a bit. He seems more like a businessman and spokesman, and I was not impressed by his 2A knowledge depth and ability to connect with the members. I used USCCA insurance for a year and found their online lessons are excellent for the average person and they have very good insurance coverage, though at a high price. I know their training counselor and their firearms training programs are a bit better than NRA.
I haven't used AOR, but know their team pretty well from outreach work, coordination with HIFICO, and other events. They seem to be good guys but are focused on pushing their products heavily and have a lot of flash and flair, which seems out of place in our culture in Hawaii. I don't feel their ability to connect with people. Although they are self-defense attorneys and filed a 2A lawsuit in Hawaii, they don't have the gun culture in them. Main issue with their insurance is you are forced to use their attorneys and I want that freedom to choose. They have an affiliate attorney in Hawaii but there are probably better attorneys here. Also if I get into an incident in another state, I'd probably want an attorney that lives in that state to defend me as they likely have better knowledge on local laws and resources, and have relationships in the local legal system. The plans are more expensive than USCCA.
I've taken a classes with a lot of the leadership of ACLDN...Masaad Ayoob, Marty Hayes, Tom GIvens, Dennis Tueller, and Karl Rehn. They are also the top experts in civilian self-defense and firearms training fields. They live and breathe that stuff everyday for decades. I really feel that deep dedication to their students, community, and the 2A when I'm around them. That is the main reason I decided to stick with ACLDN for my insurance and the low price helps too. Their online lessons are very good, a bit better content than USCCA but without the flash.
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I have experience with all 3 organizations, USCCA, AOR, and ACLDN.
I've been to the USCCA conference and talked to President Tim Schmidt for a bit. He seems more like a businessman and spokesman, and I was not impressed by his 2A knowledge depth and ability to connect with the members. I used USCCA insurance for a year and found their online lessons are excellent for the average person and they have very good insurance coverage, though at a high price. I know their training counselor and their firearms training programs are a bit better than NRA.
I haven't used AOR, but know their team pretty well from outreach work, coordination with HIFICO, and other events. They seem to be good guys but are focused on pushing their products heavily and have a lot of flash and flair, which seems out of place in our culture in Hawaii. I don't feel their ability to connect with people. Although they are self-defense attorneys and filed a 2A lawsuit in Hawaii, they don't have the gun culture in them. Main issue with their insurance is you are forced to use their attorneys and I want that freedom to choose. They have an affiliate attorney in Hawaii but there are probably better attorneys here. Also if I get into an incident in another state, I'd probably want an attorney that lives in that state to defend me as they likely have better knowledge on local laws and resources, and have relationships in the local legal system. The plans are more expensive than USCCA.
I've taken a classes with a lot of the leadership of ACLDN...Masaad Ayoob, Marty Hayes, Tom GIvens, Dennis Tueller, and Karl Rehn. They are also the top experts in civilian self-defense and firearms training fields. They live and breathe that stuff everyday for decades. I really feel that deep dedication to their students, community, and the 2A when I'm around them. That is the main reason I decided to stick with ACLDN for my insurance and the low price helps too. Their online lessons are very good, a bit better content than USCCA but without the flash.
Can i post simple points why acldn is better or different?
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Can i post simple points why acldn is better or different?
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Sure
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USCCA rates are going up
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y95zxQ0f/Screenshot-2025-01-25-06-08-58-74-a23b203fd3aafc6dcb84e438dda678b6.jpg)
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USCCA is charging me $43 a month for Platinum.
Anyway, I am going to cancel my policy on Monday.
I plan to use the $43 to buy more MH survival food each month till I increase my current 45 day supply to 60 days.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLzGygVvOIQ
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLzGygVvOIQ
I try to say things in a nice way.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjUjqtnUvHo
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPlkJlkuzQ
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFtxiS7QdEg
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S0So6KtIw4&pp=0gcJCb8Ag7Wk3p_U
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkBrwqyTPH0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOUYzfHeOUQ