However, if you are charged, tried, and convicted, unlike insurance, AOR will not claw back the money they spent defending and supporting you.  You owe AOR nothing if the jury convicts.

Do other CCW insurance actually clawback funds?  I could see that if there's proof the defendant lied.  Like killing a person in self defense and in a trial what he told the attorneys wasn't true and there's overwhelming obvious evidence it was murder.

Maybe AOR has a bit more leeway in some situations, but it feels like they're making mountains out of molehills.  That they're bringing up points that could theoretically happen but don't in real life.  That they're taking advantage of people's fears to market their product.

Yes, they do say that. But also mention "retainer".  Isn't a retainer, I give the lawyer X amount and that's the downpayment for them to defend you. So a higher profile case like Rittenhouse or even if HI wants to make an example out of you, a $50,000 retainer isn't enough. So what if what you're being charged with is estimate at say $250,000 in legal bills.  Will AOR pay the remainder to the lawyer?  Or will they guarantee that a lawyer in their network will take your case?

Or am I understanding incorrectly on how a retainer works?

I ask cause there was 1 law firm who wanted $100,000 to challenge our sensitive places law.  That's just to get started.  There would be additional cost depending how far up the lawsuit goes. 

So what I'm asking is the fine print, which I have seen USCCA's one.  I find it odd  there is no mention of the retainer amount maximum.

Show me the statements that include the word retainer.  i have no idea the context or section you're talking about.

The word i see is in the context of the member agreement.  The retainer is your monthly/annual payment.  it guarantees you an attorney is available to handle your case.  No additional Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any Self-Defense Legal Matter.

A retainer is normally paid to a lawyer who placed it into an escrow account.  As the attorney performs billable services, they withdraw from that account funds necessary to cover their services us to that point in time.

That's not how this works.  As you pay into the AOR system, that money is immediately spent.  It goes to help pay for all members' legal needs and guarantee you representation in a SD case if ever needed.

Other than the “Retainer Legal Fee” as detailed below in Section II (A), no additional
Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any
Self-Defense Legal Matter. Any costs or expenses necessary for effective legal
representation for Self-Defense Legal Matters shall be the responsibility of the Attorney.

C. The Client agrees to remit the payment of ________ per month solely for six distinct
purposes:
     1. To ensure the Attorney’s availability to represent the Client for any Self-Defense
Legal Matter as outlined in Section III (A) (subject to conflicts of interest) and
commenced with a free Strategy Session on the Self-Defense Legal Matter;

     2. To provide legal representation to the Client either as a defendant or as a victim in
either state or federal court with no additional Attorney’s fees for any Self-Defense
Legal Matter as listed below in Section III;

     3. To receive legal information and advice concerning topics relevant to the Program
in a periodic newsletter delivered electronically;

     4. To provide payments or reimbursement for Costs and Expenses on Self-Defense
Legal Matters as outlined in Section IV;

     5. To have the opportunity to hire the Attorney on selected Non-Self-Defense Legal
Matters at a 35% discount of the Attorney’s usual hourly rate; and

     6. To have free access to the annual conference with the Attorney.

Do other CCW insurance actually clawback funds?  I could see that if there's proof the defendant lied.  Like killing a person in self defense and in a trial what he told the attorneys wasn't true and there's overwhelming obvious evidence it was murder.

Maybe AOR has a bit more leeway in some situations, but it feels like they're making mountains out of molehills.  That they're bringing up points that could theoretically happen but don't in real life.  That they're taking advantage of people's fears to market their product.

NRA insurance avoided clawback by making you pay your own legal defense costs up front, then deciding if they would reimburse you later when you filed a claim.  They did offer to front you money for things like a bail bond or replacement piece, but if you lost the case, they had to get their money back.  Legally, they can't be viewed as subsidizing a crime, and if you're convicted, the NRA paying your legal fees would essentially  be doing that.  Same reason go fund me doesn't allow campaigns to pay the legal expenses of anyone charged with a crime.

Most insurance now offers up-front funding for all those costs associated with dealing with the court system.  Bail bonds, replacing confiscated guns as evidence, experts, attorneys, etc.

As of July 2023, USCCA has not tried to recoup monies paid on behalf of members involved in a self defense case.  However, the member agreement specifically says they have the right to do so if they investigate and determine you acted in violation of the law.  One instance discussed in the forum was using Wasp Spray for SD.  USCCA covers you for SD in all forms, not just firearm use.  There may be a law federally that forbids the use of Wasp Spray for that purpose, so that would allow USCCA to clawback anything they may have already paid out.  Same applies if you use a chemical like mace that's not legal in your jurisdiction.

Basically, if you're prepping to defend yourself, others and property, you should call your insurance carrier and run it past them first.  An impromptu weapon such as a piece of rebar on the ground should be okay, but carrying rebar in your truck where you can get to it might not be.

Based on this comparison in Jul 2023, USCCA is the only one in the list that includes a recoupment (clawback) clause.  If there's one, there may be more, so it pays to really read the policy for words like recoup or recoupment.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/self-defense-gun-owner-insurance-programs-compared/

Show me the statements that include the word retainer.  i have no idea the context or section you're talking about.

The word i see is in the context of the member agreement.  The retainer is your monthly/annual payment.  it guarantees you an attorney is available to handle your case.  No additional Attorney’s fees, costs, or expenses are required for legal representation in any Self-Defense Legal Matter.

A retainer is normally paid to a lawyer who placed it into an escrow account.  As the attorney performs billable services, they withdraw from that account funds necessary to cover their services us to that point in time.

That's not how this works.  As you pay into the AOR system, that money is immediately spent.  It goes to help pay for all members' legal needs and guarantee you representation in a SD case if ever needed.

From their webpage when you ask to show you the statement that mention "retainer".  Then GnG says it often as well in his YT vid bashing USCCA.

A,"OR is not insurance. As such, AOR clients are not subject to the countless exclusions included in many insurance policies. Unlike an insurance company, AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm which has been successfully representing clients in major felony matters continuously since 1997. As such, AOR is not merely indemnifying a client but rather providing a legal service. AOR is a retainer fee agreement to hire The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm for limited-scope legal representation in the event of a self-defense-related incident that is reasonably expected to result in criminal charges. Nor is AOR a prepaid legal plan or referral service as those terms are used in Model Rule 7.2. "

But in another tab, they say they will cover 100% of the criminal and civil cost.

And they say there are 3 requirments for there to be "coverage". But if in a civil suit, #1 isn't met "You are charged, or reasonably concerned about being charged, with either a felony or misdemeanor crime;"

These are just 2 areas that conflict and again, I cannot get the fine print.  I have read the USCCA policy before I signed up.

AOR seems too good to be true.  To cover you for doing something illegal like having no CCW permit is interesting.

From their webpage when you ask to show you the statement that mention "retainer".  Then GnG says it often as well in his YT vid bashing USCCA.

A,"OR is not insurance. As such, AOR clients are not subject to the countless exclusions included in many insurance policies. Unlike an insurance company, AOR utilizes its own lawyers who are members of The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm which has been successfully representing clients in major felony matters continuously since 1997. As such, AOR is not merely indemnifying a client but rather providing a legal service. AOR is a retainer fee agreement to hire The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm for limited-scope legal representation in the event of a self-defense-related incident that is reasonably expected to result in criminal charges. Nor is AOR a prepaid legal plan or referral service as those terms are used in Model Rule 7.2. "

But in another tab, they say they will cover 100% of the criminal and civil cost.

And they say there are 3 requirments for there to be "coverage". But if in a civil suit, #1 isn't met "You are charged, or reasonably concerned about being charged, with either a felony or misdemeanor crime;"

These are just 2 areas that conflict and again, I cannot get the fine print.  I have read the USCCA policy before I signed up.

I will contact them to send me a sample of their fine print.  AOR seems too good to be true.  To cover you for doing something illegal like having no CCW permit is interesting.

AOR spells out all those "too good to be true" crimes you might need to fight.  They cover them as crimes of non-violence.  They are administrative laws, like having an illegal or unregistered firearm, negligent discharge, gun free zone violations, and so on. 

For a civil case against you, they will offer you representation if it arises from a SD incident.  However, they won't pay any judgements if you lose the lawsuit, like medical costs, pain & suffering, lost wages, ...

Any non-SD cases can be handled by them as well, but at a deeply discounted hourly rate.

Regarding self-defense-related legal matters only, AOR includes 100% of your
attorneys’ fees through trial and any additional court costs and 3rd party expenses
necessary for effective representation.

Victim’s rights representation, civil defense, and any necessary appeals are also
included without any additional fees, costs, or expenses.

As AOR is not insurance but instead utilizes the in-house team of lawyers from
The Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm, there is no issue with “limits.”

Unless prohibited by your state, AOR also offers:
-- up to $50,000 toward bail,
-- $4,000 toward scene cleanup,
-- $1,500 toward mental health counseling services, and
-- $1,000 toward firearm replacement reimbursement.

I think I may buy  AOR and keep my USCCA. 

Thanks for all who chimed into this post.

I think I may buy  AOR and keep my USCCA. 

Thanks for all who chimed into this post.

The odds are very remote that you'd need high coverage from the CCW insurance, much less needing 2 coverages.

Better to save that money and use it towards a good firearms and law class.  Tom Givens has a good instructor level course that spends 1.5 days on firearms and 1.5 days in the classroom on the legal aspects of self-defense.  Massad Ayoobs Mag 40 is a student level firearms class that delves deep into the legalities too.

https://rangemaster.com/
https://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-40/

What CCW insurance do you use and why?

Currently using Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) which is actually not insurance.  It's like a group defense fund when self-defense is used regardless of type of weapon.  I got it because of the price and Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Karl Rehn, and other self-defense experts are part of it.  It costs about $100 per year and covers the usual bail bond, criminal and civil defense.  It also has a newsletter and self-defense educational lessons.

I used USCCA in the past but it is expensive starting at $300 a year.  The lessons are more polished and easier to understand for beginners and their unrelated firearms training programs are a bit better than the NRA.  But I already take a lot of classes on self-defense law and tactics so just needed the insurance.

Old thread that covers some insurance:
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=49173.0

Did you ever look into a standard umbrella policy? I know a $1 million is a common umbrella coverage amount, that would seem to be enough to pay lawyers and it would cover other things you might encounter, not just a weapon use.

Did you ever look into a standard umbrella policy? I know a $1 million is a common umbrella coverage amount, that would seem to be enough to pay lawyers and it would cover other things you might encounter, not just a weapon use.

A personal umbrella policy is a "follow" form.  WHich means it has to be covered by your homeowners liability coverage first in order for the umbrella to kick in.  Many carriers exclude firearm type incidents for liability. So no, then even the umbrella won't cover.

So I had someone from AOR call me after I emailed them yesterday.

1) They will cover for civil defense, which means your lawyer fees. But they won't cover if you lose and the other party is awarded any money for damages. Or any settlement.

2) They have lawyers in HI and in AZ who can practice in HI.  There is no way that you won't be able to not have a lawyer assigned to you.  I asked about retainer limit of say $50K for a Rittenhouse type cost and lawyers may decline your case due to it's heavy cost.

3) If you go to NV/live in , they have to apply to practice there pro hac or something.  Compared to #2 above, they're already g2g in HI.

4) They do not cover for red flag charges.  USCCA does and will pay up to $15,000 for a lawyer.


In the next 2 months, they will be adjusting their program, but adding stuff. Not removing things.

A personal umbrella policy is a "follow" form.  WHich means it has to be covered by your homeowners liability coverage first in order for the umbrella to kick in.  Many carriers exclude firearm type incidents for liability. So no, then even the umbrella won't cover.

I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car.  At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability.  Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused.  I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$. 

Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables.  For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc.  Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited. 

I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car.  At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability.  Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused.  I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$. 

Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables.  For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc.  Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited.

Umbrella is for liability only and not your property.  Many homeowners cover for some firearms itself like $1K or so.  Then you can increase the cap to like $4K, but nothing like $20K worth of firearms.  Same with jelwrey.  But for jewelry, you can "schedule" each item separately on your homeowners.  This means you usually need an appraisal and detailed description of the item.

So knowing the guns you have, you will need a separate firearms only policy.

Check your homeowners. If it doesn't exclude it, then it's usually covered. So there should be a mention of a cap for firearms itself.  There will also be a firearms liability exclusion somewhere too. 

I have umbrella for my main residence, investment properties, and car.  At least mine doesn't cover firearms for loss and liability.  Not sure of all umbrellas, but my friend (and insurance agent) indicated that most are quite focused.  I looked into insuring my firearms against loss (fire and/or theft) a while back and couldn't find anything, but don't recall if it was not availble or not worth the $$$. 

Aside, my buddy also advised separate insurance for valuables.  For him, stuff like Rolex and other watches, jewelry, etc.  Where most insurance coverage is usually quite limited.

State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.

Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.

State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.

Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.

The $1000 limit on firearms is for property loss, not liability.  if you need more coverage for any high value property including firearms, jewelry, designer accessories, etc., you need a rider on your homeowner's policy.  In my experience, those riders are so expensive, 4-5 years of paying the rider cost would cover another $5,000 in property.  The higher the value of the goods, the higher the premium for the rider alone.  Better to pay those premiums to yourself and build your savings account to cover those high value articles.

The problem with generic liability policies like homeowners is they normally exclude intentional acts.  if you shoot a prowler in the wee hours of the morning, even if it's officially ruled self defense, the act was intentional -- you decided to shoot someone.

In short, the insurance company can't become an ATM for policy holders who cause damage or injuries on purpose.  Unfortunately, the exclusion is broad enough to exclude self defense with or without using a firearm.  Not all policies are the same, so you need to ask or read the exclusions for yourself, keeping in mind lawyers wrote these exclusions for a reason.

AOR also had a follow up email sent to me about not meeting step 1 (of 3 steps) for a civil suit. Like I am not being charged or think I will be charged. Which has to be met for the criminal defense to kick in.  With regard to a civil suit, you are still covered defense wise, even though #1 wasn't fulfilled.

1) Umbrella is for liability only and not your property.  2) Many homeowners cover for some firearms itself like $1K or so.  Then you can increase the cap to like $4K, but nothing like $20K worth of firearms.  Same with jelwrey.  3) But for jewelry, you can "schedule" each item separately on your homeowners.  This means you usually need an appraisal and detailed description of the item.

So knowing the guns you have, you will need a separate firearms only policy.

Check your homeowners. If it doesn't exclude it, then it's usually covered. So there should be a mention of a cap for firearms itself.  There will also be a firearms liability exclusion somewhere too.

1) To clarify, I meant total/all of my policies.  The basic plans with the umbrella.  Not just the umbrella.
2) Yes.  I'd have to check.  But bottom line is my friend was well aware that whatever coverage would be in the basic wasn't anywhere near what I own (hypothetically of course).
3) Yup, understand that.  In my case, my agent has same/similar coverage that I have.  To clarify, in our case, I think it was either the coverage wasn't "worth it" or wouldn't cover all of what we had.  I'll have to revisit.  I ended up getting separate insurance anyways.  And yes, undahstahn that have to get appraisal. . .

The $1000 limit on firearms is for property loss, not liability.  if you need more coverage for any high value property including firearms, jewelry, designer accessories, etc., you need a rider on your homeowner's policy. In my experience, those riders are so expensive, 4-5 years of paying the rider cost would cover another $5,000 in property.  The higher the value of the goods, the higher the premium for the rider alone.  Better to pay those premiums to yourself and build your savings account to cover those high value articles.

The problem with generic liability policies like homeowners is they normally exclude intentional acts.  if you shoot a prowler in the wee hours of the morning, even if it's officially ruled self defense, the act was intentional -- you decided to shoot someone.

In short, the insurance company can't become an ATM for policy holders who cause damage or injuries on purpose.  Unfortunately, the exclusion is broad enough to exclude self defense with or without using a firearm.  Not all policies are the same, so you need to ask or read the exclusions for yourself, keeping in mind lawyers wrote these exclusions for a reason.

Thinking back, I think that was the case for my policy.  Which is why my agent recommended going elsewhere (not the rider route). 

State farm had a small amount of coverage for firearms loss but the limit was $1,000 I think. I paid a little extra to raise the limit on my firearms.

Next time I call State Farm to pay my bill I will have to ask specifics about the umbrella coverage. I know they said it won't cover me for something I do at work but it covers other things including on top of my car insurance. Definitely have to ask about the limitations like whether it will cover a criminal case or just a civil case and then what it covers like CMO said, the damages if I lose or just the attorney fees.

For me, the primary driver for going with umbrella was that I had other properties to cover.  Where I viewed the umbrella as more of a "flexible" coverage account.  I since have less property to cover, so lesser concern/priority for me. 

Definitely wasn't thinking about coverage for a criminal or civil liability for SD. 

Best thing, go Vegas, win at least $10M Mega Millions jackpot, put $1M side for your SD attorney fund.

or you could watch their youtube channel and learn...
https://www.youtube.com/@AttorneysOnRetainer