2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: macsak on July 09, 2025, 12:33:33 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmmWA8Z8eng
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1tCZ5bV0a0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1tCZ5bV0a0
That's been the problem this whole time. No matter how detailed the reports of P320s firing on their own or when dropped, the problem can't be reproduced in any controlled setting.
in my profession, when a problem was reported, we didn't say "User is delusional," as much as we wanted to sometimes. We just reported "Could not replicate problem. Case closed pending new information."
If the same problem is reported numerous times by a variety of users, then we'd contact the vendors of the hardware and/or software to report the problem. At least one time, a problem we reported to the Oracle database engine was initially classified as "not reported by anyone else." A month later we received a patch for the database that was tested and supposed to fix our problem.
The biggest challenge with anything that is experiencing problems is that nobody -- and nothing -- lives in a cookie-cutter, identical environment. You can't replicate a problem sometimes unless you can replicate the exact conditions that created the problem. For example, on the AWACS aircraft, mission and training crews kept reporting keyboard problems that introduced errors during a 12 hour mission at least a few times an hour. Each time a report was made, the keyboards were inspected and tested by maintenance tor repair or replacement. No hardware problems were ever identified. Finally, one of the support officers decided to go up on a training mission with the squadron that had the most keyboard complaints. After he landed and addressed the issue, no further keyboard problems were reported.
What he saw on the aircraft was a crew trying to type while wearing their flight gloves! The gloves made fingers larger than the top surface of a key, so most of the crew were pressing multiple keys when they typed. The fix was to temporarily instruct crews to not wear gloves when typing. Additionally, an emergency request was made to Boeing to replace all mission crew keyboards on all E-3's with one that was tested to accommodate gloves.
It's not always easy to identify a problem when you have everyone except the right person working to solve it.
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That's been the problem this whole time. No matter how detailed the reports of P320s firing on their own or when dropped, the problem can't be reproduced in any controlled setting.
in my profession, when a problem was reported, we didn't say "User is delusional," as much as we wanted to sometimes. We just reported "Could not replicate problem. Case closed pending new information."
If the same problem is reported numerous times by a variety of users, then we'd contact the vendors of the hardware and/or software to report the problem. At least one time, a problem we reported to the Oracle database engine was initially classified as "not reported by anyone else." A month later we received a patch for the database that was tested and supposed to fix our problem.
The biggest challenge with anything that is experiencing problems is that nobody -- and nothing -- lives in a cookie-cutter, identical environment. You can't replicate a problem sometimes unless you can replicate the exact conditions that created the problem. For example, on the AWACS aircraft, mission and training crews kept reporting keyboard problems that introduced errors during a 12 hour mission at least a few times an hour. Each time a report was made, the keyboards were inspected and tested by maintenance tor repair or replacement. No hardware problems were ever identified. Finally, one of the support officers decided to go up on a training mission with the squadron that had the most keyboard complaints. After he landed and addressed the issue, no further keyboard problems were reported.
What he saw on the aircraft was a crew trying to type while wearing their flight gloves! The gloves made fingers larger than the top surface of a key, so most of the crew were pressing multiple keys when they typed. The fix was to temporarily instruct crews to not wear gloves when typing. Additionally, an emergency request was made to Boeing to replace all mission crew keyboards on all E-3's with one that was tested to accommodate gloves.
It's not always easy to identify a problem when you have everyone except the right person working to solve it.
Reminds me of the time a M1 Abrams Tank turret was delivered to an aircraft carrier. The captain of the carrier went to the deck it was on and asked WTF. He read the order and it was marked "mission critical", so no one asked questions and it was delivered quickly.
He then spoke to the guy who ordered it and he put in the order for another mission critical part. But when it got to the next guy who isn't on the carrier, he put a typo that was off by 1 digit and thus a tank turret was ordered and delivered. Maybe he was wearing gloves too. lol.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPs9LEVSU2U
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R7E8Bup88I
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https://www.youtube.com/live/6mcC4l3gAaY?si=0ywvhmytQPVbXI8J
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https://youtu.be/XSygYUDkmkA
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The Air Force is ceasing using the M18 until further notice. Rumor is an airman put the M18 while holstered on his desk and it fired, killing him.
In the meantime, they're issuing M4's as a replacement.
If the above is true, this is why it's important to be aware of muzzles, even if holstered.
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New term to me: Uncommanded Discharge. Nobody fired it, so it's not accidental or negligent, I guess.
From what I found, it's not the entire Air Force, nor are they ceasing use of the M18. It's what's called a "pause" where certain equipment, in this case the M18, is not to be used for the pause duration so investigators have time to assess the risks. It's also just one AF Command that's been affected: the Air Force Global Strike Command. If the investigation finds reasonable justification, then it may become Air Force wide and possibly changed to a complete "grounding" of the weapon until further notice.
Sig M18 Pistols Pulled From Use By Air Force Global Strike Command
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/sig-m18-pistols-pulled-air-233207046.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAChPAZ4Usfkd76Kr6wUM3jbWOie6m8NNK33brhJI4CwiV1fy6DgmcGbapqwPkRJmydqCJDAs4rs_1sQovMHlJIJZjPq1xNPuEiAN3ykIyKTxdXBDX8PNqHxozQXPJsmv1AXm7Ch1CaQcM32a3_yoMLYVjXjiYo5gmMKABkhbWG1v
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https://www.google.com/search?q=M4
The Air Force is ceasing using the M18 until further notice. Rumor is an airman put the M18 while holstered on his desk and it fired, killing him.
In the meantime, they're issuing M4's as a replacement.
If the above is true, this is why it's important to be aware of muzzles, even if holstered.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sw5cwXExkg
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https://youtu.be/jOMQOtOQoPk?si=mt4avwnT-MlwNOsf
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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There's bit of misinformation on the P320 User Manual floating around.
in the current manual, the following is in bold font:
THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL
WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND
IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE
https://www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/resources/OPERATOR_S_MANUAL_P320_8501909-01_REV15_WEB_FILE_1.pdf
Some are saying that sentence was added the the manuals recently to try and cover SIG's proverbial ass.
The fact is, the sentence exists in previous manuals for the P320. The only change is highlighting it in bold font.
Does the font change mean SIG is acknowledging the pistol can fire without any manipulation or snagging your clothes/holsters?
i think the answer to that is obvious. SIG is emphasizing you have an option by not having a round in the chamber while carrying. Whether or not you agree with the suggestion, it is, and has been, a valid option to make any semi-auto pistol safer.
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If u can't watch the 40 min vid above:
If you take up the slack in the trigger and press it less than 1mm. Then move the slide, the gun will go off. Moving the slide includes holstering it as that can move the slide. The P320 slide has a lot of wobble in it compared to other striker fire guns. Even when you press the trigger fully, you can see the slide slightly move. This all relates to why the gun goes off. Also, with the trigger pressed less than 1mm and you insert a full mag, the gun will go bang as this also moves the internal trigger system of the gun.
Well, why would anyone be pressing the trigger 1mm worth while holstering? This is also mimics if any internal trigger part is out of spec or worn out and then the slide is moved in any way, bang. This is why we don't all holstered P320s with a round in a chamber go off. Out of spec stuff happens not only with guns, but all mass produced parts as nothing is perfect.
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Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces
(https://www.smith-wesson.com/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn11.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-c7gr8wg3cg%2Fproducts%2F337%2Fimages%2F1268%2F170245-pc-OnWhite-3Q-Left__90124.1675176923.1280.1280.png%3Fc%3D1&w=828&q=75)
… unless of course your name is macsak, in which case you are as gun-less as the day is long.
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Hickok45 weighs in on the P320 situation: "So, it's apparently real."
He says you have to trust a firearm 100%, because the one time something goes wrong, no matter how remote the possibility, someone might die.
https://youtu.be/e4Rudq7-wqw
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Hickok45 weighs in on the P320 situation: "So, it's apparently real."
He says you have to trust a firearm 100%, because the one time something goes wrong, no matter how remote the possibility, someone might die.
https://youtu.be/e4Rudq7-wqw
I agree. I did the side wobble test on all my handguns and nothing. If I had a P320 as a CCW, i wouldn't trust it.
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Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces
(https://www.smith-wesson.com/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn11.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-c7gr8wg3cg%2Fproducts%2F337%2Fimages%2F1268%2F170245-pc-OnWhite-3Q-Left__90124.1675176923.1280.1280.png%3Fc%3D1&w=828&q=75)
I guess I stuck my revolver into the wrong part of the forum at the wrong time.
My apologies - I'm just an insensitive A-hole.
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Good video compiling a lot of the information and evidence surrounding the P320 problem. The Rumble version contains a good interview, too, but I'm not sure if it made it into this clip for YT.
This video was uploaded to YT yesterday but had no audio. I had to watch it on Rumble. It's been uploaded again to YT, this time with audio. I've not had time to rewatch it to see if anything changed.
SIG Sauer is Cooked: Breaking Down the P320 Controversy
https://youtu.be/pE507PvtD90
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Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces
(https://www.smith-wesson.com/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn11.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-c7gr8wg3cg%2Fproducts%2F337%2Fimages%2F1268%2F170245-pc-OnWhite-3Q-Left__90124.1675176923.1280.1280.png%3Fc%3D1&w=828&q=75)
I guess I stuck my revolver into the wrong part of the forum at the wrong time.
My apologies - I'm just an insensitive A-hole.
Not with me. My fave EDC is a DA only hammerless airweight with 5 rounds at less than 16 ozs)
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Or you could just carry 8 rounds of .357 Magnum, weighing 23 ounces
(https://www.smith-wesson.com/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn11.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-c7gr8wg3cg%2Fproducts%2F337%2Fimages%2F1268%2F170245-pc-OnWhite-3Q-Left__90124.1675176923.1280.1280.png%3Fc%3D1&w=828&q=75)
… unless of course your name is macsak, in which case you are as gun-less as the day is long.
cute gun
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I heard HPD disallowed officers from carrying the P320 as well.
I don't know how Sig is going to recover from this. The guy from Forgotten Weapons suggested ending the P320 altogether and starting with a whole new weapon. Even if Sig announced they fixed the P320 problem I wouldn't buy one.
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"i heard"
lol
I heard HPD disallowed officers from carrying the P320 as well.
I don't know how Sig is going to recover from this. The guy from Forgotten Weapons suggested ending the P320 altogether and starting with a whole new weapon. Even if Sig announced they fixed the P320 problem I wouldn't buy one.
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"i heard"
lol
Strange, as i read HPD has been soliciting to hire a contractor to procure P320 pistols for the department to be issued.
The City and County of Honolulu is seeking to engage a contractor to furnish
and deliver Sig Sauer P320 Semi-automatic Pistol with Sig Sauer Romeo X
Integrated Red Dot Optic Sight to the Honolulu Police Department.
https://www.highergov.com/sl/contract-opportunity/hi-furnish-and-deliver-sig-sauer-p320-semi-27688814/
Hawaii Department of Public Safety
Awards Contract for SIG SAUER P320
NEWINGTON, N.H. (November 19, 2015) — SIG SAUER, Inc., a leading U.S.-based manufacturer of law enforcement and military firearms, is pleased to announce that the Hawaii Department of Public Safety has selected the SIG SAUER® P320® as the agency’s next service firearm and chosen SIG SAUER V-Crown Duty and SIG SAUER FMJ ammunition.
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/hawaii-department-public-safety-awards-contract-sig-sauer-p320
HPD Is Considering Buying A Gun That's Being Shelved By
Other Police Departments Over Safety Concerns
https://ground.news/article/hpd-is-considering-buying-a-gun-thats-being-shelved-by-other-police-departments-over-safety-concerns
If HPD wants to change their minds given the problems being reported with the P320, maybe they should make a public announcement rather than allowing people to start rumors. Are the supposed alleged hearsay "disallowances" only for personal carry, or does it also disallow carrying the P320 as a duty weapon?
I foresee another half million to a million dollars of guns and accessories being destroyed by HPD, only this time all of them will be new and unused like the 200 unused S&W 9mms of the 2,600 that were destroyed.
I think HPD needs to issue 1911 pistols in 9mm. They are tried and true. Plus, nobody needs a 15 or 17 round magazine!!
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hawaii-police-destroy-guns_n_55e74374e4b0b7a9633b58fb
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There is a sign at the range.
No sig320 allowed.
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Not with me. My fave EDC is a DA only hammerless airweight with 5 rounds at less than 16 ozs)
Nice, very nice
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cute gun
I admit I did make-A with sticking this honking big picture here, but all I really wanted to say was that modern revolvers really do excel for CCW, particularly AIWB - I'm really grateful to have that kind of secure option - love it.
Sometimes I get a bit carried away :-*
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SIG's response to videos discussing the P320 issues:
We stand behind our firearms including the P320.
Yeah -- because that's the safest place to be! :geekdanc: :rofl:
SIG is filing lawsuits against a WA Police Academy, ranges and others who banned the P320 from training and practice.
https://youtu.be/aaR2sZcF9JM
https://youtu.be/c0gIGlTjzuw
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SIG's response to videos discussing the P320 issues:
We stand behind our firearms including the P320.
Yeah -- because that's the safest place to be! :geekdanc: :rofl:
SIG is filing lawsuits against a WA Police Academy, ranges and others who banned the P320 from training and practice.
https://youtu.be/aaR2sZcF9JM
https://youtu.be/c0gIGlTjzuw
You caught them nicely, in a very unfortunate choice of words on their part >:D
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Did anyone mention that Hawaii State Sherrifs are issued Sig P320s?
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Did anyone mention that Hawaii State Sherrifs are issued Sig P320s?
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=57052.msg505403#msg505403
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SIG issues new statement on the P320's safety:
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-information
https://youtu.be/s_dfFvsaaOE
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6guU4eFGwA
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There might be more to the airman story. Someone was arrested recently.
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The Air Force has charged an airman with making false statements, obstructing
justice and involuntary manslaughter in the July 20 shooting death of a security
forces airman at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, the service announced
Friday.
: : : :
The suspect’s charges indicate investigators believe Lovan’s death was likely
the result of a negligent discharge in which the gun’s trigger was accidentally
pulled and the gun fired.
https://www.stripes.com/branches/air_force/2025-08-08/m18-pistol-air-force-arrest-18702982.html
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The more concerning thing to me is that the P320 has enough smoke around these "uncommanded discharges" that disguising a criminal act in the form of a defective design is plausible. I wonder if we will start seeing more cases like this.
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The more concerning thing to me is that the P320 has enough smoke around these "uncommanded discharges" that disguising a criminal act in the form of a defective design is plausible. I wonder if we will start seeing more cases like this.
Indeed.
Anyway, who wants to live with a gun that seems to be from that world?
We all love our rifles and shotguns, but your side arm is your life, just as the katana was for the samurai - no hyperbole here - it absolutely is, period.
You have to have complete understanding of it, and faith in it, and I regret that for pretty much everyone, that is destroyed for this gun.
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Would be interesting if SIG sues the guy later.
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P320 now banned at Kokohead
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Fed Judge Orders Cops
to Stop Carrying Sig P320
A federal judge has ordered Chicago cops to stop carrying the Sig P320.
https://youtu.be/50vjwHxdj0U
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P320 now banned at Kokohead
You think anyone making that decision will care about this story?
It looks like the hand is on the other foot now!
The narrative that a USAF Airman was accidentally killed by an unintentional discharge from his P320 service weapon is no longer believed to be true.
Another Airman was fooling around and jokingly pointed the weapon at the man's chest as he fired the weapon. He then had 2 other Airmen lie to investigators about what happened.
This was the story that motivated the Air Force and several law enforcement offices to ban the P320 as service weapons for their members.
It's always easier to find a scapegoat when the scapegoat already has a history, true or not, of causing bad things to happen.
One less anecdote with which to bash SIG SAUER's P320.
https://youtu.be/v9O2Vz_5MZk
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https://youtu.be/x2mqOHjT0yQ?si=PhVkxVdreeR9QS5T
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Maybe it wasn't in the latest videos linked here, or maybe I didn't notice, but the Airman that was charged with manslaughter in the P320-related death or an Airman was himself found dead on base in his room on October 8, 2025. This makes 4 members of the 90th Missile Wing, 90th Security Forces Squadron to die in the last 5 months or so.
Strange. No cause of death reported while they investigate.
Marcus White-Allen was an Airman involved in a tragic incident at
F.E. Warren Air Force Base, where he allegedly shot and killed
fellow Airman Brayden Lovan in a joking manner. Following the
incident, White-Allen faced charges of involuntary manslaughter
and obstruction of justice, but he was found dead on base on
October 8, 2025, and the circumstances surrounding his death
are still under investigation.
https://youtu.be/5mT8AU6vXPk