2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hi state on May 28, 2013, 10:07:08 PM
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Just seen on the news about a stray bullet hitting a ladies van at sandys the family is saying that it came from kokohead but I highly doubt it..hopefully nuthing negative will come from this, but now days seems like anything can happen...
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Saw that too on kitv 10pm news. They interviewed Harvey Gerwig about it. He said trajectory unlikely to have come from the range. Anybody know if they normally post all the stories to their website that they show on the news? Can't find it yet on their website. Watched kfve 9pm news and didn't see any mention of this story.
Updates post to websites
KITV
http://www.kitv.com/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8906042/20337656/-/item/0/-/158uwrpz/-/index.html (http://www.kitv.com/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8906042/20337656/-/item/0/-/158uwrpz/-/index.html)
KHNL
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22443501/possible-stray-bullet-strikes-van-at-sandy-beach (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22443501/possible-stray-bullet-strikes-van-at-sandy-beach)
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Its very implausible not impossible. There is such a small chance it came from the range. It would have been to be a large caliber rifle round fired directly in that area from a high vantage point to pierce the steel or aluminum body of the car. While its most likely a bullet hole its not likely it came from a responsible shooter
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I always want to see these bullets lol.
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Was a bullet shown or even found? Or did someone just have a hole in their car?
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Still terrible publicity for gun owners in Hawaii :(
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this is why you should never shoot randomly into the air... except for New Years eve and 4th of July cuz of the fireworks ban :) Take away peoples fireworks and they are still gonna figure out how to get a bang. I'm not saying its right but it happens.
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What if it was a meteorite... ::) that would actually be pretty awesome. It happens more often than you think!
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so yeah...where's the bullet?
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probably a rock or something on the road kicked up by a large vehicle....
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It's definitely not a rock kicked up by a car.. The hole was in the roof of the van and it looked like it was made by a bullet.. The owner said its stuck inbetween the roof and the headliner. Guess someone was practicing for 4th of July since no more fireworks.
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Are the vehicle owners positive it's a bullet and not a pellet? Was the vehicle recently in the vicinity of the graveyard?
:rofl:
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Most likely came from another source other than the Kokohead range - but I can imagine another effort to close the range and use this incident about "how scary" it is to be at Sandys or any other place where there is a range.
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The story is at:
http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8905354/20337656/-/ir9g5h/-/index.html (http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8905354/20337656/-/ir9g5h/-/index.html)
Mentions that the bullet is rattling around in the roof and cops will examine it after a mechanic removes it.
Harvey Gerwig made the point that perhaps it was someone at Queensgate (across the highway from Sandy's) firing off a round.
Or maybe Kalama Valley?
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The story is at:
http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8905354/20337656/-/ir9g5h/-/index.html (http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/bullet-suspected-of-hitting-moving-car-at-sandy-beach/-/8905354/20337656/-/ir9g5h/-/index.html)
Mentions that the bullet is rattling around in the roof and cops will examine it after a mechanic removes it.
Harvey Gerwig made the point that perhaps it was someone at Queensgate (across the highway from Sandy's) firing off a round.
Or maybe Kalama Valley?
Rough estimate I have is Sandy's is well over 2 km from the range. This puts the distance well over a mile (so well over 2,200 yards). I do agree it's highly unlikely for the round to have come from the range at least highly unlikely without someone noticing something was up.
If the round did come from a surrounding neighborhood, then someone knows/heard something. A firearm discharge in the neighborhood, someone would know.
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The KITV story says the range is 5,500 feet away. Doesn't say how they got that figure.
Back in the late '90s, a kid in Kalihi was hospitalized after being struck by a .45-cal bullet on New Year's Eve that HPD guessed someone distant fired into the air. Dumb asses: What goes up must come down. Or let's all start wearing helmets outdoors.
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At terminal velocity coming down, bullets can still break the skin
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Are the vehicle owners positive it's a bullet and not a pellet? Was the vehicle recently in the vicinity of the graveyard?
:rofl:
Were there any short filipinos with earrinngs in the area? They are known to be in possession of a .22 conversion for an AR :rofl:
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Take a close look at the damage. I do not see a hole, therefore there would be no bullet rattling around in the headliner.
I see a a dent with paint flaking off exposing bare sheet metal.
I would be very surprised if someone produced a bullet from inside that car.
That looks like a fairly new Honda van. That flaking paint doesn't say much for the paint quality of Honda. Just sayin'
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I've read somewhere that several homes, cars, and even people are hit by what officials think are stray bullets fired into the air. The stats I read were for New Years Eve and I think 4th of July, and they were for part of the mainland (or maybe just for LA- I don't remember for sure). It was a much higher number than I would have guessed.
When I get on a "real computer", I'll try do a little trajectory estimate using GIS. I'll estimate the linear distance from range to Sandys parking lot, and I'll also estimate the trajectory distance which will take into account the elevation of anything in this path. I'll try to produce a series of trajectories which may account for vertical angle of gun.
While it's more likely a bullet than a meteorite, I'm guessing it's pretty unlikely that it originated from the range. When I get my little GIS project done, I'll be able to make a more educated guess.
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Harvey Gerwig made the point that perhaps it was someone at Queensgate (across the highway from Sandy's) firing off a round. Or maybe Kalama Valley?
Not me, move Big Island three years ago.................
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It wasn't a bullet. It was a falling pod from a monkey pod tree. Ever had a pod fall on the roof of your car? Friggin thing sounds like a bullet going through the roof.
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Distance is a little over a mile straight line, so it is possible. I wouldn't doubt it. If you shoot from the left side of the rifle range at the 300yd targets on the right, that would put sandy beach in the line of fire.
According to the balistic tables, a 223 would have to be shot at a 6 degrees angle, and will end up at 425fps with as much energy as a magnum air rifle.
A 3006 would have to be shot at a 2 degree angle, and will end up at 850fps with as much energy as a .38 special.
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Distance is a little over a mile straight line, so it is possible. I wouldn't doubt it. If you shoot from the left side of the rifle range at the 300yd targets on the right, that would put sandy beach in the line of fire.
According to the balistic tables, a 223 would have to be shot at a 6 degrees angle, and will end up at 425fps with as much energy as a magnum air rifle.
A 3006 would have to be shot at a 2 degree angle, and will end up at 850fps with as much energy as a .38 special.
A 2 degree angle? That's gotta be a typo, right?
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A 2 degree angle? That's gotta be a typo, right?
Nope, 131 MOA /60 = 2.18 degrees. Calculated using 178gr bullets.
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Distance is a little over a mile straight line, so it is possible. I wouldn't doubt it. If you shoot from the left side of the rifle range at the 300yd targets on the right, that would put sandy beach in the line of fire.
According to the balistic tables, a 223 would have to be shot at a 6 degrees angle, and will end up at 425fps with as much energy as a magnum air rifle.
A 3006 would have to be shot at a 2 degree angle, and will end up at 850fps with as much energy as a .38 special.
I disagree. Google map Kokohead and use a straight edge. You have to aim alongside the mountain there in order to get a line to Sandy's. You're going to be way off the 300 yd plates. A more realistic setup is on the right side of the range in order to help clear the side of the mountain. In either case you are aiming so off target that people will know when you discharge the rifle that something really bad has just happened.
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Nope, 131 MOA /60 = 2.18 degrees. Calculated using 178gr bullets.
I'm assuming 0 degrees is horizontal, yes? In either case, that makes no sense in this situation. It's not enough elevation to clear the mountain, not sure it's enough to clear the berm!
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I disagree. Google map Kokohead and use a straight edge. You have to aim alongside the mountain there in order to get a line to Sandy's. You're going to be way off the 300 yd plates. A more realistic setup is on the right side of the range in order to help clear the side of the mountain. In either case you are aiming so off target that people will know when you discharge the rifle that something really bad has just happened.
Depends on the caliber, if it's like a 30-30 you'd have to shoot it at a higher angle to arch it over. A 30-06 might clear the mountain if shot higher angle and her car was located farther past sandy beach. I could compute the angles when I go to koko head on saturday. Shooting at the 300yd plates line up on my map with sandy's, missing most of koko head. Of course it could just be someone accidentally shooting their rifle in the air at any angle anyplace on the range too. To me launching a bullet over to sandy's probably happens often cause it's easy to do, just the odds of hitting something or someone is remote.
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I do think the news did an admirable job of balancing their approach to this. ANd, according to Google Earth, from the right side of the rifle range to the nearest point of Sandy's is indeed 5500 feet.
Now, as I sit and stare at this, it strikes me that the action bays are even more likely points of origin. If this happened on Memorial Day, those bays should have been closed, so a lone person or two could easily have been over there, unsupervised, and done something stupid. Which would account for the lack of witnesses.
If it is a bullet (and I'm saying if), I don't understand why people are so quick to say "No way!" about it coming from the range. There's a range within range, and people were there shooting. It would be like a nuclear power plant saying "that's not OUR radioactive waste" in a well a mile away. Come on, really? Take a little responsibility!
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I don't think it was a 30-06, it would've gone completely through the roof and the door. Looking at the photos, it looks like damage a magnum powered air rifle could do along with the shooting angle, I'd say it was a 223, or high powered handgun like a 44 magnum.
Also possible someone just accidentally shot it at a high angle, just look at all the holes in the wood awning at the pistol range.
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Good report. Didn't slam the range hard like it could have.
Still. Spooky.
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Depends on the caliber, if it's like a 30-30 you'd have to shoot it at a higher angle to arch it over. A 30-06 might clear the mountain if shot higher angle and her car was located farther past sandy beach. I could compute the angles when I go to koko head on saturday. Shooting at the 300yd plates line up on my map with sandy's, missing most of koko head. Of course it could just be someone accidentally shooting their rifle in the air at any angle anyplace on the range too. To me launching a bullet over to sandy's probably happens often cause it's easy to do, just the odds of hitting something or someone is remote.
Sorry guys, this is the best I can do for now. I set the shoot point on the far left side of the rifle range. I estimated where the 300 yd plates are, but if you look at the berm between the rifle and silhouette side you can see it's about there.........at least close enough it won't make that much of a difference.
So the line from the far left of the rifle range to the 300 yd plates means you need to shoot over the ridge of the crater. You do that and you're going to get noticed immediately. It is unreasonable to think anyone who does so would go un-noticed as it is well documented how busy the range is.
I have also drawn a separate line that I believe the shot would have had to have followed from the rifle range in order to travel to the Sandys parking areas. This shot would be even more difficult for someone to hide as the angle is even more extreme. While the angle of inclination does need to be as much as the one to the 300 yard targets you are still required to elevate quite severely to clear the side slope of the crater.
While I do agree it's possible to put a round down there, I just think it's highly improbable that it could be done at the date and time that it was alleged to have happened. There are just way too many people at Kokohead for someone not to have noticed................anywhoooo, it would be great if you can take some measurements so we can throw that into your ballistics program.
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5540/kokohead.jpg)
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After reading this decided to measure the distance on google map like everyone else. Its over 7000 feet to kite flying area at sandys. Seems like it would have to be a kinda extreme angle from horizontal to get it over the hill and all the way to sandys. Now kinda want to see what the lady turns in after she fixes her roof. Kinda feel for her too because if it was a bullet i would be worried too if my children were in the car when it hit.
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We have yet to see the projectile. The woman was quick to blame the range though.
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We have yet to see the projectile. The woman was quick to blame the range though.
sounded to me that the police were quick to blame the range.
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sounded to me that the police were quick to blame the range.
I wonder how many LEOs were at the range training this particular day.
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sounded to me that the police were quick to blame the range.
"Sheffield believes the bullet came from the Koko Head shooting range but experts we spoke to say that's nearly impossible."
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"Sheffield believes the bullet came from the Koko Head shooting range but experts we spoke to say that's nearly impossible."
"The police said it's a bullet hole, most likely a bullet hole. After I heard that I was so scared," said Sheffield.
That was the sentence before the one you cherry-picked.
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A.D....?
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I ran estimates of trajectory through a balistic table and google earth (amazing what it can do). Here it is:
1. The red mark shows the shooters view from the middle of the rifle range to Sandy Beach parking lot, about 7000ft. The start of the sand beach is about 5500ft.
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-thWRfQV/0/L/view-L.gif)
2. This is the path from the picture before. The bullet path doesn't need to go over the crater, it just goes along the side. Point A at about 1500 feet it hits the front of the crater at 185ft high (from shooter level). Point B at about 3400 ft it hits the highest point of 245ft. If shooting more on the left side, the crater will be higher. Shooting from the right side, crater will be lower. These are the two distances and heights the bullets have to clear, and third point is the bullet has to reach sandy beach with enough energy to penetrate the top of the car roof, but not penetrate completely.
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-CcQHj4R/0/L/path-L.gif)
3. Performing the calculations, from shooter level, the bullet needs 6.78 degrees of elevation, or 406 MOA to clear the first point A
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-N3dm87S/0/L/angle-L.gif)
4. My ballistic program maxed out at 2000 yards, good enough. 9mm can't make it to 2000 yards so I'll rule medium powered handgun cartridges out. I started out with 44 magnum. It clears point A with 232 feet of elevation. At Point B it clears with 372 feet of elevation. At point C it has 81Ft/lbs of energy, about the same as 22lr out of a pistol. I think this could completely penetrate the car roof, but there is a chance it may not if it hits a support beam or something inside the roof.
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-Q7XCBk3/0/L/44%20mag-L.gif)
5. Next is a 223 caliber M193 55gr ammo. It doesn't clear point A with 145ft of elevation (40 ft too low). However if fired from the right side of the rifle range, it might clear a lower part. Or they might shoot the high angle which might clear (my program doesn't calculate those). It clears point B with no problem and has 21ft/lbs of energy at point C, about the same as a magnum powered air rifle. Probably enough to go through one side of the roof and get stuck inside. M193 max range is a little over 2000 yards. Maybe M855 62gr is more likely as it travels a bit farther.
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-nqPNpMG/0/L/m193-L.gif)
6. Next is 30-06 178gr Amax. At point A it doesn't clear with only 52 ft of elevation. However it could be shot at the high angle (my program doesn't calculate those) to clear point A and B. Firing at the low angle, point C the bullet has 289ft/lbs of energy which is like a 38 special and would most likely penetrate the car roof and door, so it would have too much power. If shot at the high angle (maybe 30 degrees up?), bullet would be falling a little faster than terminal velocity which I feel could penetrate one side of the roof, and stopped by hitting something like a support beam.
(http://yukutake.smugmug.com/Shared/Forums/i-ZWsgzRt/0/L/3006-L.gif)
Therefore I think it could be a high powered handgun round fire up in the air from the pistol or silhouette side (look at all the bullet holes in the pistol range awning), a 223 type rifle fire from the right side of the rifle range, or high powered rifle like a 30-06 shot at a high angle up into the sky. All of these scenarios probably mean a negligent discharge by a shooter since they would have to be way off target. Also probably a left handed since they tend to face the gun to the right side. Moral of the story? Make sure the guys around you have good habits, muzzle awareness, and trigger discipline or else someones going to get shot accidentally one day.
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Holy shit you are going all out haha :worship:
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you forgot about...
Coriolis Effect Forum Thread Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y80D5NziFAA#ws)
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What if it was a meteorite?
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"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object. Anyone know when that'll happen?
I'm following this with great interest and admiration for the technical analyses (thanks, zipz!), since I've heard too many (anecdotal) stories about anti-gun people faking bullet holes and tales about "the bullets went right by my head and I coulda been killed" just to demonize shooting ranges and shooters.
One widely-reported story that isn't anecdotal:
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/ (http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/)
Terry, 230RN
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Z...............you are the man.
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"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object. Anyone know when that'll happen?
See, that bothers me. Whatever they produce, there is no chain of custody, no verification. She drives her van to the mechanic, who sometime later comes out and puts an object (rock, bullet, meteorite, dense seagull poop, whatever) in her hand. That's the sort of thing that gets laughed out of a courtroom. So even if, even if, her van actually did get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe it. And, of course, even if her van didn't get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe that. This is a lose-lose scenario in terms of proof and accountability.
Way to drop the ball, HPD.
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"They" were supposed to get a mechanic to retrieve the object. Anyone know when that'll happen?
I'm following this with great interest and admiration for the technical analyses (thanks, zipz!), since I've heard too many (anecdotal) stories about anti-gun people faking bullet holes and tales about "the bullets went right by my head and I coulda been killed" just to demonize shooting ranges and shooters.
One widely-reported story that isn't anecdotal:
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/ (http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/15/msm-propaganda-watch-ready-aimnot-fired/)
Terry, 230RN
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Check out page 1 for a close up photo of the damage. There is NO hole. Just a dent and flaky paint.
Therefore no bullet rattling around in the headliner.
The dent is consistent with what I would expect of a bullet coming from that distance and striking a glancing blow on a flat surface.
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I was wondering about that chain-of-custody thing myself, so thanks, Tom_G.
I was undecided on that pic of the supposed damage as to whether it really was a hole (with the light-colored internal insulation showing through) or just a dent.
The main problem here is that the allegation itself is damaging to our cause, even if it was just from stiff seagull poop ( :) ) or an actual firearms projectile, or the whole story was just plain old soft bull manure altogether. With most of these things, you see the accusation on page one and the subsequent dismissal or correction on page 23A ---weeks later.
Accusations are cheap. Defense is expensive.
Terry
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^^^Indeed. Does anyone know who her husband is?
Tried running a search on her, but only thing I could find is some minor traffic violations.
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Here's teh bullets! They came from the range I tell you!
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1030/1125907463_270279fcdd.jpg)
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Looked at some news articles, and looks like the car got hit by the 2nd restroom area where people fly the kites, so it would be 7,500ft. Don't think a 44 mag would reach that far so would have to be a stronger round, M193 may not make it that far out of a 16 inch barrel, maybe with a 20inch barrel and good winds or M855 62gr round could make it there. The pictures do show a hole or tear in the roof, probably from something hitting at an angle. Would be cool if it was proven to be a meteorite.
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Here's teh bullets! They came from the range I tell you!
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1030/1125907463_270279fcdd.jpg)
Those are the new reusable bullets.
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Check out page 1 for a close up photo of the damage. There is NO hole. Just a dent and flaky paint.
Therefore no bullet rattling around in the headliner.
The dent is consistent with what I would expect of a bullet coming from that distance and striking a glancing blow on a flat surface.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22443501/possible-stray-bullet-strikes-van-at-sandy-beach (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22443501/possible-stray-bullet-strikes-van-at-sandy-beach)
In the 2nd picture from the hawaiinewsnow site it kinda looks like there's a hole closest to the roof rib to me on the left side of the picture. I have never taken apart that particular model of Honda Odyssey but older models were single layer roof panels with reinforcements. If it's similar and there is a hole whatever is inside the roof is either on the headliner which has it's own reinforcements as well as the roof vents and ducts for the AC or inside one of the reinforcements for the roof. I understand the chain of custody problems but if they really want to preserve the chain of custody the headliner can be dropped in 30 minutes or less. Not a long time to have whoever is to collect the item stand around and document the retrieval. And they should be able to get to it with the headliner sagged down or completely removed.
I'm not too familiar with how much energy is needed to dent or puncture sheet metal (around 22 gauge just guessing based on past feel)?. But lose enough energy or not retain enough to not continue through the headliner? Too many hypothetical parameters I guess. Saw the other stuff from zippz but those are a bit beyond what I understand.
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The problem with .223 or 5.56 is that the bullet will be transonic by that distance. I doubt a run of the mill .223 or even Mk 262 will make it there without keyholing. How many people shoot 90s out of an AR or .223 cartridge?
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See, that bothers me. Whatever they produce, there is no chain of custody, no verification. She drives her van to the mechanic, who sometime later comes out and puts an object (rock, bullet, meteorite, dense seagull poop, whatever) in her hand. That's the sort of thing that gets laughed out of a courtroom. So even if, even if, her van actually did get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe it. And, of course, even if her van didn't get shot, there's no incentive for people to believe that. This is a lose-lose scenario in terms of proof and accountability.
Way to drop the ball, HPD.
That is a bullshit investigation.
"Well ma'am, were not going to retrieve the evidence you claim is stuck in the headliner.
Why don't you call your insurance company and have them schedule a repair shop to retrieve whatever you say is stuck in the roof and just bring it to us whenever you can.
After you bring us whatever it is you want us to believe hit your vehicle, we will resume our investigation."
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The problem with .223 or 5.56 is that the bullet will be transonic by that distance. I doubt a run of the mill .223 or even Mk 262 will make it there without keyholing. How many people shoot 90s out of an AR or .223 cartridge?
either way, thats still a mile and a half with wind. how much energy is a 5.56 even carrying at that distance, keyholing or not?
dont know how accurate this is, but if it is, you've already lost half your velocity and 2/3 your energy at 500 yards with run of the mill 5.56 rounds.
(http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=47790)
wonder what those numbers look like at 1500 meters. or 2000 meters, which is roughly the distance this "bullet" traveled.
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The problem with those "pictures" is that they're actually stills captured from a video camera. Even if it was a true HD camera, that's just 1920x1080 @ 72dpi, a far crappier resolution than it is even possible to buy in a still camera today. But, to my eyes, we're seeing a DENT in the roof, not a hole. The jagged edges are flaking paint. Whatever is rattling around in the headliner is part of the car that got broken off by the impact. Maybe a shard of plastic inside an A/C duct? Anyway, I predict that there will not be a bullet found.
Which doesn't mean it didn't happen. I've seen a lot of bullet holes, and bullet dents, and they do look like that crappy picture.
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since this was near to the area that have people flying kites, one of the offending kites did a dive bomb and the hard ribbed kite dented and punctured the surface. with the info we have at this time, there is no evidence of a bullet. the offending kite operator then maneuvered his kite out of sight and distance of the van.
:D :D :D
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since this was near to the area that have people flying kites, one of the offending kites did a dive bomb and the hard ribbed kite dented and punctured the surface. with the info we have at this time, there is no evidence of a bullet. the offending kite operator then maneuvered his kite out of sight and distance of the van.
:D :D :D
das wat i was thinking
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Those are the new reusable bullets.
Yeah, but don't you have to get a new magazine every time you re-use? Because the magazines can only be used once? :shaka:
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It's probably the same magic bullet that killed JFK.
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since this was near to the area that have people flying kites, one of the offending kites did a dive bomb and the hard ribbed kite dented and punctured the surface. with the info we have at this time, there is no evidence of a bullet. the offending kite operator then maneuvered his kite out of sight and distance of the van.
:D :D :D
The kite idea makes sense, if you have ever seen the crazy acrobatics some of the kite flyers do. Violent loops quite close to the ground.
If he did whack the car, good idea to get the hell out of Dodge.....................
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The problem with those "pictures" is that they're actually stills captured from a video camera. Even if it was a true HD camera, that's just 1920x1080 @ 72dpi, a far crappier resolution than it is even possible to buy in a still camera today. But, to my eyes, we're seeing a DENT in the roof, not a hole. The jagged edges are flaking paint. Whatever is rattling around in the headliner is part of the car that got broken off by the impact. Maybe a shard of plastic inside an A/C duct? Anyway, I predict that there will not be a bullet found.
Which doesn't mean it didn't happen. I've seen a lot of bullet holes, and bullet dents, and they do look like that crappy picture.
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The picture from kitv was not as good as I thought.
I saw the pictures from HNN and now I see a tear in the metal that I could not see in the kitv picture.
It does not look like the classic bullet holes in cars that I shot. But it could be because of the angle of the impact.
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"It does not look like the classic bullet holes in cars that I shot. But it could be because of the angle of the impact"
Me, too. That's why I said I was undecidd about the hole or dent or blemish or whatever it was. There used to be a spot in the mountains where my sons and I examined and produced many holes in an abandoned van. All calibers, all angles, but all of course at close range. That photo doesn't look like any bullet impact I've ever seen. Looks more like a rock hit it. Maybe someone slingshotted a rock into the air and it came down on the car or something like that.
The kite theory is also appealing to me right now because I've also seen some of those fighting kites in action.
If a bullet is pulled out of the headliner I will be very surprised.
But as I said, accusations are cheap, defense is expensive.
The upshot is even if it is proven not to be a bullet, the accusations are damaging to shooters in general.
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It is now five days after the fact and no bullet has been produced???
This is beginning to smell. ???
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It is now five days after the fact and no bullet has been produced???
This is beginning to smell. ???
Kukai?
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It is now five days after the fact and no bullet has been produced???
This is beginning to smell. ???
To me it smells like the insurance company insisting that they don't cover bullet holes.
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If there was a bullet, that broad would be on TV again, proclaiming how scared she was.
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Want to see a followup story on if it was a bullet or not. Was at the range trying to figure out how a bullet would get to sandys and seem like someone gotta be way off to shoot a bullet that way.
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Plus it was two holes.
I'm calling bullshit on this one.
1 stray bullet? Highly unlikely but remotely possible.
2 bullet holes within a foot of each other in one hit, ( since she claimed she heard the hit) straight bullshit.
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I only saw one hole. Is their something i missed?
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I only saw one hole. Is their something i missed?
Missed the hole again? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Ouch hahaha...
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I'm still waitin'. How long does it take to pull down a headliner?
:popcorn:
ETA 06 Jun.... Still drumming fingers on desk waiting for an answer....
:D
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no news on this yet? guess the media never follows up on anything.
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no news on this yet? guess the media never follows up on anything.
Probably because it's not what they want to hear.
Someone here said they thought it might be off the top of a kite. I wouldn't be surprised if that was what it was.