2 Black good guys with a gun killed by police in the last month

Jemel Roberson.
E.J. Bradford

Thoughts ?

Is one of them the bouncer that had the mass shooter on the ground at gunpoint?

Hopefully they release badge cams of the incident

2 Black good guys with a gun killed by police in the last month

Jemel Roberson.
E.J. Bradford

Thoughts ?

I haven't heard anything about the second guy but from what I have seen reported on the shooting of Jemel Roberson is appears to be one of those unfortunate situations that may have been difficult to avoid.

Don't know if the cops knew there was a gun present or not when they were sent but we know police show up to a commotion outside a bar in the night time after a shot was fired. The officer sees the security guard with a gun and claims he gave multiple warnings. The security guard allegedly had at least a hat that read "Security" on it but it is unknown if it was still on his head or visible to the officer. So the officer likely arrived to a pretty chaotic situation not knowing who was the good or bad guy or if the initial call was even accurate. 

The scene was likely chaotic, it was likely noisy, and vision would have been diminished being night time, and the officer saw the guy with the gun. The officer claimed he gave verbal commands and got no response, others claimed not hearing the commands but given what was likely a noisy situation it is understandable that the security guard was unable to hear commands being given by the officer. I think the officer was probably faced with a tough call and ultimately made a call that turned out to be the wrong one. Kind of like a friendly fire incident.

I think it is most unfortunate but I haven't seen anything to suggest any significant wrongdoing on the part of the officer.

These situations remind me of the last Field Exercise I was in.  Basically, it involved a motorist in distress distraction\ambush.

During debrief a teammate commented that no one said civilians were going to be involved.  I replied that it was implied in the initial briefing when they said "local sympathizers".

After that, it became a huge can of worms 'cause now the impression among the team was everyone and everything is a potential threat.  In a way, I get that line of thinking.  However, there's a basic rule that we fall back on when the rules of engagement isn't all out war.  If it's shooting at you, it's hostile.  More commonly, don't engage unless fired upon.

It sucks to be in a situation where that is the rule, but realistically, it prevents these results.  As a permitted carry individual, it's one of those things that should be hard-wired as well.  This rule seems to be lost on individuals that end up getting headlines though.

I get it, one wouldn't want an individual killed because of failure to act, but the use of lethal force is a decision that must be made with absolute certainty.  Where the immediate threat isn't directed in ones direction, there is time to evaluate.  While a threat is imminent, if not carried out immediately, there is time to evaluate.  If one comes up on an imminent threat situation that wasn't personally witnessed, one does not have all the information for this situation.  The mere presentation of a firearm does not necessarily indicate an imminent threat.  Most people aren't willingly unresponsive to threat of injury or death so unresponsiveness in such a situation should be evaluated.

Think back to the shootings of law enforcement in Texas where armed citizens responded as officers were being shot.  None of them were shot by law enforcement though some were mistakenly arrested.  Case in point for carry States BTW, but the point is those officers didn't respond to imminent threats by firing at them.

I think it is most unfortunate but I haven't seen anything to suggest any significant wrongdoing on the part of the officer.

No Significant wrongdoing?
Armed security guard shot dead holding perp.
Yeah, but that's not significant. ( sarc )

Good points FHawke

That's kind of my point.

If we get CCW will the cops just show up and shoot the hero ?
(Especially if he's local, in Kalihi, Waipahu or Waianae.....insert your stereotype here)
I know we need training but would the cops need to be trained that every guy with a gun is not bad.
And how do they tell the difference?
Unless like FHawke says, do not fire unless fired upon.

Pull out a gun,risk being killed by cops. Eg: Tamir Rice (kid with pellet gun in Ohio. ) and the 2 this month noted above.

Did either of them not follow commands when PD showed up?  If the answer is yes, then this is a lesson to all who carry or have a gun in hand when PD shows up.  Even in self defense.  PD arriving on scene do not know who the good guy and bad guy are.  They just see a guy with a gun.

2 Black good guys with a gun killed by police in the last month

Jemel Roberson.
E.J. Bradford

Thoughts ?

I think that if Obama was still in office, that this would have been all over the news, riots going, etc. 

SNIP

After that, it became a huge can of worms 'cause now the impression among the team was everyone and everything is a potential threat.  In a way, I get that line of thinking.  However, there's a basic rule that we fall back on when the rules of engagement isn't all out war.  If it's shooting at you, it's hostile. More commonly, don't engage unless fired upon.

SNIP

Way to be gender neutral!    [poking fun]

Seriously though, good points and something definitely to be mindful for folks who choose to carry.  Lot of what ifs, but mindset is part of the equation that I think many people neglect. 

A vid was posted about a similar situation by Knockoutlights on IG.

After the shooting and area is secure
1) Let those around you know you're not the bad guy, but the good guy (1 hand is up waving for attention, other hand is on gun, but gun pointed to the ground in ready position on chest)
2) Tell them to call 911 (reinforces that you're not the bad guy) Don't say "police, ambulance, emergency, etc..." because at time of stress, people can forget who to call.  Saying 9-1-1 clicks in the mind more.
3) Repeat so those just arriving can hear you again
4) Follow instructions of PD arriving on scene.

Way to be gender neutral!    [poking fun]

Maybe the person is in CA where you can go to jail for misgendering someone

Building on Hawke's statement... you've seen the photos of cops who have their rifle sights on backwards.

That's the problem training domestic law enforcement with military tactics. It's almost always completely inappropriate and out of context. Cops get all hyped up like they are heading out to a battlefield at a time when it's never been safer to be a member of law enforcement. In reality of the 128 or so police who died on duty in 2017, only 44 of them were victims of gun violence. That's a teeny tiny little number, yet the permissive attitudes of the superiors and the disturbing trend of extreme paramilitary training seminars (which often ignore their actual job description) is likely the cause of the latest trend of increasing police violence.

BTW you guys heard Darren Cachola got re-hired with back pay, right? The message to his fellow officers is clear.

I'm not a cop.
I've been qualified by the military as a
security police shooter.
I wasn't trained to inquire, understand,
arrest, or "leave it be".  I was taught to kill.
We have a military that operates that way
in a wartime environment..
Cops are supposed to operate in a peaceful
environment.  Our cops are operating like they
are in a war zone.  That is wrong.
The civilians that massively outnumber and
out gun cops will respond. For example
my Island has ~430 people for every cop.
I would not want to take on 200 angry armed people.

Is one of them the bouncer that had the mass shooter on the ground at gunpoint?

Hopefully they release badge cams of the incident

Seems those recordings are mysteriously unavailable, doesn't it?

Liberals are always saying that the police need more training to prevent shooting unarmed suspects. I read a study that said cops who experienced military combat have a lower rate of shooting unarmed suspects. Unfortunately, this is a skill that can only be learned through experience by using your gut intuition while in a dangerous situation. Sure the safest tactic is to start shooting in every direction, but it takes courage to not draw a firearm while talking down a suspect. I'm not sure if this can be effectively developed in a VR simulator because it takes risk and repetition to develop an instinctual skill.

Liberals are always saying that the police need more training to prevent shooting unarmed suspects. I read a study that said cops who experienced military combat have a lower rate of shooting unarmed suspects. Unfortunately, this is a skill that can only be learned through experience by using your gut intuition while in a dangerous situation. Sure the safest tactic is to start shooting in every direction, but it takes courage to not draw a firearm while talking down a suspect. I'm not sure if this can be effectively developed in a VR simulator because it takes risk and repetition to develop an instinctual skill.

We have to remember that PD gets lied to on a regular basis and have no idea the intentions of the other person.  The perp also has the element of surprise on their side. So they can easily out draw even the fastest officer and choose to turn a encounter deadly at the blink of an eye.  So with that being said, I understand why some PD may be on edge when responding.  So how about instead of more training for PD, tell the public to follow commands and don't argue or raise their voice when dealing with PD until the situation is secure.  Liberals always looking to blame someone else, especially if the guy getting shot is black.

VR's may help, but a computer is no substitute for the reality of wanting to go home at the end of their shift.

Liberals are always saying that the police need more training to prevent shooting unarmed suspects. I read a study that said cops who experienced military combat have a lower rate of shooting unarmed suspects. Unfortunately, this is a skill that can only be learned through experience by using your gut intuition while in a dangerous situation. Sure the safest tactic is to start shooting in every direction, but it takes courage to not draw a firearm while talking down a suspect. I'm not sure if this can be effectively developed in a VR simulator because it takes risk and repetition to develop an instinctual skill.

It's not just Liberals who say that.  Many topics on this forum have beaten that issue to death (pun intended). 

Several factors have resulted in Cops being physically less superior to the average person, and therefore more reliant on weapons, than in the past.  I remember in NC thinking the State Highway Patrol must recruit troopers from other planets.  They were all 6' 3"+ and built like linebackers.  Highly unusual to read/hear of a trooper dying in a duty-related altercation.

When the libs start demanding more training after a shooting, my solution is to take the guns away from the PD (ala UK which is their poster child of gun restrictions) and let everyone fend for ourselves. Eventually, we'll figure out our priorities.

I can't remember where I heard this, perhaps here. Caldwell was asked what the C&C was going to do about the rash of shootings. He said they have the money to increase the HPD officers but it's difficult to find enough qualified applicants who would want to join with the low unemployment in the State. In a way, we already are on our own.

I remember watching a video in Japanese class in high school.  I'm not sure if it was the entire Japan or just a certain part, but the cops didn't have guns.  When there was a report of a gun involved incident (rare), they had a red card that had to be turned into the armory to get their pistol.

Sure the safest tactic is to start shooting in every direction, but it takes courage to not draw a firearm while talking down a suspect. I'm not sure if this can be effectively developed in a VR simulator because it takes risk and repetition to develop an instinctual skill.

You post some doozies for sure, but this one takes the taco. :rolleyes:

I remember watching a video in Japanese class in high school.  I'm not sure if it was the entire Japan or just a certain part, but the cops didn't have guns.  When there was a report of a gun involved incident (rare), they had a red card that had to be turned into the armory to get their pistol.

Some do carry, but you rarely will see them armed.

You post some doozies for sure, but this one takes the taco. :rolleyes:

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