No knock raids....coming soon to your house. (Read 9938 times)

vooduchikn

No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« on: June 28, 2011, 09:05:35 PM »



Nice little tune about "no knocks". They are happening daily across our country. Do some research. One of the guys shot to death on here  was wielding a golf club when they busted his door in. SWAT shot a dog in a crate. SWAT team coming over the top to get a few rounds in, 69 year old man shot to death in the early morning because he was supposedly selling pain medication. PAIN medication.  What would you do if you heard your door get smashed in and went to meet the intruders?

This is currently legal folks....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you! 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 09:16:58 PM by vooduchikn »
Relax, I've banned myself..

GPAGAP

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 12:11:08 AM »
The artist Lindy seems like a whiney hippy...
I guess as a Canadian, our war on drugs has really affected him north of the border. Or maybe he just wanted a topic that would be emotionally appealing to people.
Glad he is concerned with our country's problems.

VooDu, did you do any research?
According to Lindy, he was inspired to write this song after seeing this ( http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ )
If you look at Hawaii's history, there has been one incident, according to the linked site. The one recorded incident was in 2005.


Here is an interview with Lindy on the "Cannabis Culture" website. ::) ( http://cannabisculture.com/v2/content/2011/06/28/No-Knock-Raid-Musician-Lindy-says-Catastrophic-Drug-War-Must-End )
Link NSFW

And your bit about "all it takes is a phone call"? Do you have any examples of this in Hawaii? I'm not in LE, but I don't think an anonymous phone call counts as probable cause for a search warrant.

Nice little tune about "no knocks". They are happening daily across our country. Do some research. One of the guys shot to death on here  was wielding a golf club when they busted his door in. SWAT shot a dog in a crate. SWAT team coming over the top to get a few rounds in, 69 year old man shot to death in the early morning because he was supposedly selling pain medication. PAIN medication.  What would you do if you heard your door get smashed in and went to meet the intruders?
This is currently legal folks....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!

vooduchikn

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
The artist Lindy seems like a whiney hippy...
I guess as a Canadian, our war on drugs has really affected him north of the border. Or maybe he just wanted a topic that would be emotionally appealing to people.
Glad he is concerned with our country's problems.

VooDu, did you do any research?
According to Lindy, he was inspired to write this song after seeing this ( http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ )
If you look at Hawaii's history, there has been one incident, according to the linked site. The one recorded incident was in 2005.


Here is an interview with Lindy on the "Cannabis Culture" website. ::) ( http://cannabisculture.com/v2/content/2011/06/28/No-Knock-Raid-Musician-Lindy-says-Catastrophic-Drug-War-Must-End )
Link NSFW

And your bit about "all it takes is a phone call"? Do you have any examples of this in Hawaii? I'm not in LE, but I don't think an anonymous phone call counts as probable cause for a search warrant.

Nice little tune about "no knocks". They are happening daily across our country. Do some research. One of the guys shot to death on here  was wielding a golf club when they busted his door in. SWAT shot a dog in a crate. SWAT team coming over the top to get a few rounds in, 69 year old man shot to death in the early morning because he was supposedly selling pain medication. PAIN medication.  What would you do if you heard your door get smashed in and went to meet the intruders?
This is currently legal folks....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!

Yes. I did research. Whiney hippy or not, they are happening.

 I could care less about the song, the artist, where he is from or his motives. 

 I have seen no occurances here in Hawaii to date, maybe we are either lucky or have a biased media culture.

Posted for info.  You can do with it what you want.
Relax, I've banned myself..

GPAGAP

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 12:20:06 PM »
I perceived that you were trying to incite fear or outrage by titling your post, "...coming soon to your house," and making a statement like  "....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!"
Apologies for my misconception.

I think we can both agree that even one mistaken raid is too many. :shaka:

Thanks for the "information."


The artist Lindy seems like a whiney hippy...
I guess as a Canadian, our war on drugs has really affected him north of the border. Or maybe he just wanted a topic that would be emotionally appealing to people.
Glad he is concerned with our country's problems.

VooDu, did you do any research?
According to Lindy, he was inspired to write this song after seeing this ( http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ )
If you look at Hawaii's history, there has been one incident, according to the linked site. The one recorded incident was in 2005.


Here is an interview with Lindy on the "Cannabis Culture" website. ::) ( http://cannabisculture.com/v2/content/2011/06/28/No-Knock-Raid-Musician-Lindy-says-Catastrophic-Drug-War-Must-End )
Link NSFW

And your bit about "all it takes is a phone call"? Do you have any examples of this in Hawaii? I'm not in LE, but I don't think an anonymous phone call counts as probable cause for a search warrant.

Nice little tune about "no knocks". They are happening daily across our country. Do some research. One of the guys shot to death on here  was wielding a golf club when they busted his door in. SWAT shot a dog in a crate. SWAT team coming over the top to get a few rounds in, 69 year old man shot to death in the early morning because he was supposedly selling pain medication. PAIN medication.  What would you do if you heard your door get smashed in and went to meet the intruders?
This is currently legal folks....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!

Yes. I did research. Whiney hippy or not, they are happening.

 I could care less about the song, the artist, where he is from or his motives. 

 I have seen no occurances here in Hawaii to date, maybe we are either lucky or have a biased media culture.

Posted for info.  You can do with it what you want.

vooduchikn

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 12:47:50 PM »
I perceived that you were trying to incite fear or outrage by titling your post, "...coming soon to your house," and making a statement like  "....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!"
Apologies for my misconception.

I think we can both agree that even one mistaken raid is too many. :shaka:

Thanks for the "information."


The artist Lindy seems like a whiney hippy...
I guess as a Canadian, our war on drugs has really affected him north of the border. Or maybe he just wanted a topic that would be emotionally appealing to people.
Glad he is concerned with our country's problems.

VooDu, did you do any research?
According to Lindy, he was inspired to write this song after seeing this ( http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ )
If you look at Hawaii's history, there has been one incident, according to the linked site. The one recorded incident was in 2005.


Here is an interview with Lindy on the "Cannabis Culture" website. ::) ( http://cannabisculture.com/v2/content/2011/06/28/No-Knock-Raid-Musician-Lindy-says-Catastrophic-Drug-War-Must-End )
Link NSFW

And your bit about "all it takes is a phone call"? Do you have any examples of this in Hawaii? I'm not in LE, but I don't think an anonymous phone call counts as probable cause for a search warrant.

Nice little tune about "no knocks". They are happening daily across our country. Do some research. One of the guys shot to death on here  was wielding a golf club when they busted his door in. SWAT shot a dog in a crate. SWAT team coming over the top to get a few rounds in, 69 year old man shot to death in the early morning because he was supposedly selling pain medication. PAIN medication.  What would you do if you heard your door get smashed in and went to meet the intruders?
This is currently legal folks....all it takes is a phone call from someone who does not like you!

Yes. I did research. Whiney hippy or not, they are happening.

 I could care less about the song, the artist, where he is from or his motives. 

 I have seen no occurances here in Hawaii to date, maybe we are either lucky or have a biased media culture.

Posted for info.  You can do with it what you want.

Nope.  I am not a "Shock-Jock". No need to incite fear, there is enough paranoia out there already.

 

Relax, I've banned myself..

HiCarry

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 12:59:00 PM »
No knock raid are problematic for a variety of reasons. Including the use of them by various agencies for warrent service on non-violent offenders (there was one recently on a home where the reason for the raid was non-payment/possible fraud related to a student loan), warrents excuted on minimal intelligence, including hearsay by confidential informants (as demonstrated in a recent raid in Arizona where a Marine Iraq-veteran was shot dead in his home and no illegal drugs were found...incidentally, the police tried to cover up the fact that the homeowner did not "shoot first" despite the clear evidence that he could not have - his rifle being found on "safe" after the raid was over). When the fact that police imposters are using their ruse to gain entry to homes with minimal resistance with increasing frequency are added to the debate, it becomes clear that the current situation is unacceptable. If someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night and yells "police" you are pretty much screwed no matter what you do. If it's an imposter, you are likely to hesitate and pput yourself at a tactical disadvantage. Or, if it is the police, even if they are difficult to identify as such, and you take action, you will either be killed, or likely be found guilty of killing a cop in any subsequent court action (see the case of the guy who was raising trees in is garage when the police instigated a raid on what they erroneously thought was his marijuana grow operation. When the owner realized someone was trying to "break in" he shot an undercover cop, dressed in street clothes and without apparent police insignia visible, and was subsequently convicted of attempted murder),
No-knock raids need to go away or be severely limited to the very worse and dangerous cases. And, protections should be put in place that shields innocent victims of mistaken raids when they do take defensive actions against what they believe to be home invaders, as well as laws mandating full restitution to those victims of mistaken raids by the agency performing the raids.

2aHawaii

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Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 01:51:48 PM »
^ +1 to that
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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onfloat

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 03:14:30 PM »
^+2

Dregs

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 03:37:22 PM »
^+3

Kingkeoni

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 04:24:38 PM »
^+4       :D
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

230RN

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Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2011, 07:14:52 PM »
According to quite a number of threads on other firearms boards, no-knock raids are becoming a bit of a problem in general.  Whether this is because of the publicity generated on the net, or whatever, I think the discussion generated elsewhere on the www is not "paranoia."

The general tone of the comments seem to be that there are too many mistaken addresses, too many compliant judges willing to rubber-stamp flimsy affidavits as to the probable cause for the searches, and too many military-style tactics and "toys" involved in these "dynamic entries."

The main concern as far as gun owners are concerned, is the possibility of armed resistance to what the gun owner legitimately perceives, in the heat of the moment, as a home invasion, which themselves are apparently becoming more common.*  From what I read, the Officers have been trained to start shooting at any call of "Gun!" by any of the officers involved.

Now you must understand that I have done no formal research on the matter, and I am not paranoid, but the increasing number of reports on dynamic-entries-gone-bad makes me a bit "suspicionoid," if I can coin a new term.

Many of the comments I read make the point that if a suspected crimedoer is being arrested, why not arrest him on the street, based on the evidence at hand or evidence which could be obtained by normal old-fashioned police techniques, even though the basis of the no-knock raid is that  "evidence" might be flushed down the toilet or otherwise destroyed.

Call it paranoia (a cheap way of demeaning someone's position) or perhaps my newly-coined term "suspicionoia," I personally am becoming more than a little concerned with what I see as a growing abuse of the U.S. Fourth Amendment:

Quote

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.**


Three  of  the big problems I see here are the ever-narrowing definition of "unreasonable," the ever-broadening interpretation of "probable cause," and (if I may be facetious) the fact that the "Oath or affirmation" may merely be that the police officer swears that "a little birdie told me" without checking the truthfulness and reliability of the "little birdie" involved.

I close with a quote regarding searches and seizures by William Pitt in Parliament in 1763

Quote
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the force of the crown. It may be frail--its roof may shake--the wind may blow through it --the storm may enter, the rain may enter --but the King of England cannot enter --all his force dares not cross the  threshold of the ruined tenement.

That was 1763, remember.

Food for thought, eh?

Terry, 230RN

* At least here on the mainland, where unlawful immigration by the criminal element of other countries is probably more of a problem than in your state.
** I do not know what the Hawaiian constitution says in this regard.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 08:48:13 PM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

HiCarry

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2011, 01:44:59 PM »
Unfortunately, this is not a "new" problem.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/01/cory-maye-to-be-released-_n_888454.html

Cory Maye to be released after 10 years in jail

Funtimes

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2011, 05:32:03 PM »


Call it paranoia (a cheap way of demeaning someone's position) or perhaps my newly-coined term "suspicionoia," I personally am becoming more than a little concerned with what I see as a growing abuse of the U.S. Fourth Amendment:



There is some good and bad coming out with this.  Luckily, in Hawaii, the 4th amendment violations don't seem to be running to rampant. Liberal courts seems pretty content on keeping, while conservatives are giving it away lol. I am looking at ways to strengthen the 4th in terms of firearms (no searching gun cases etc.).  Speaking of which, if you are out on the 4th and see a checkpoint of some sorts I would like to know =)!
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Cougar8045

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 11:43:19 AM »
I'm ok with no-knock raids, even with flimsy support for the warrant.  The only thing I ask is that we remove the protections for LE who conduct raids on wrong addresses, wrong renter, etc.  If I make the wrong choice on shoot/don't shoot, even if they've got a weapon, even in my own house, they'll take all my guns away at a minimum; and probably send me up for a lengthy stay at the crowbar hotel.  Treat cops the same way.  If you shoot me because you thought you were on your way to 107, but busted in the door on 701 instead, you should be prosecuted for negligent homicide or manslaughter or some such offense. 
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

Kingkeoni

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 12:05:31 PM »
I'm ok with no-knock raids, even with flimsy support for the warrant.  The only thing I ask is that we remove the protections for LE who conduct raids on wrong addresses, wrong renter, etc.  If I make the wrong choice on shoot/don't shoot, even if they've got a weapon, even in my own house, they'll take all my guns away at a minimum; and probably send me up for a lengthy stay at the crowbar hotel.  Treat cops the same way.  If you shoot me because you thought you were on your way to 107, but busted in the door on 701 instead, you should be prosecuted for negligent homicide or manslaughter or some such offense.

I absolutely agree
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

onfloat

Re: No knock raids....coming soon to your house.
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 06:46:48 PM »
I'm ok with no-knock raids, even with flimsy support for the warrant.  The only thing I ask is that we remove the protections for LE who conduct raids on wrong addresses, wrong renter, etc.  If I make the wrong choice on shoot/don't shoot, even if they've got a weapon, even in my own house, they'll take all my guns away at a minimum; and probably send me up for a lengthy stay at the crowbar hotel.  Treat cops the same way.  If you shoot me because you thought you were on your way to 107, but busted in the door on 701 instead, you should be prosecuted for negligent homicide or manslaughter or some such offense.

Still sucks for the innocent homeowner that was killed trying to defend his home. I'm not ok with flimsy support.