No leading? Fo' real? (Read 5207 times)

Mr. Farknocker

No leading? Fo' real?
« on: July 12, 2017, 05:34:38 PM »
I keep reading posts from reloaders in this forum and other that say they've found some magic combo of powder, lube (not powder coat) and cast boolits that do not cause barrel leading. I've been shooting cast boolits for years and have yet to find a combo that doesn't result in some amount of barrel leading. Perhaps, I'm just not doing it right but I'm really beginning to think that shooting lead without getting leading is as rare and having farts that don't stink. 

Can any of you truly say that you've experienced no leading with a certain combo of powder, lube and bullet or are you really just saying 1) I think i'm not getting any leading but I'm too afraid to check; 2) I haven't been getting any leading when swabbing my barrel with cotton balls instead of Chore Boys Scouring Pads; or 3) I get small kine leading but not as thick as the pancake mix-like cosmetic on my mother in-laws face that I used to get?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 05:41:36 PM by Mr. Farknocker »

Inspector

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 06:38:11 PM »
I keep reading posts from reloaders in this forum and other that say they've found some magic combo of powder, lube (not powder coat) and cast boolits that do not cause barrel leading. I've been shooting cast boolits for years and have yet to find a combo that doesn't result in some amount of barrel leading. Perhaps, I'm just not doing it right but I'm really beginning to think that shooting lead without getting leading is as rare and having farts that don't stink. 

Can any of you truly say that you've experienced no leading with a certain combo of powder, lube and bullet or are you really just saying 1) I think i'm not getting any leading but I'm too afraid to check; 2) I haven't been getting any leading when swabbing my barrel with cotton balls instead of Chore Boys Scouring Pads; or 3) I get small kine leading but not as thick as the pancake mix-like cosmetic on my mother in-laws face that I used to get?
Before I answer you I have to say even when you get to the point of no leading, there are always going to be small tiny flecks of lead on your first, maybe second patch when cleaning. I have experienced leading to the point it filled in the grooves of my .357 revolver. It took over an hour of scrubbing with a bronze brush to remove all the lead. And this happened while using the correct powder, charge, lube, etc.

While I am no expert I will just give you my experience. I don't cast my own. But for me the key is hardness and powder choice along with velocity choice (with or without gas checks). For hardness decisions I will defer to the experts like Old Fart or Old Mose. I buy my lead heads from a local source which casts some very hard bullets in the range of Brinnell 16-18. Which is pretty hard. He also has his own lube recipe. One more thing I consider is boolit diameter. He swages the boolits to my specs for my particular guns. It works well in everything I shoot from bunny fart pistol loads to bunny fart rifle loads to semi hot rifle loads to extremely hot pistol loads. But I think powder choice, velocity, gas check or no gas check and lube is important. So assuming I am going to buy a hard cast bullet with good lube, I then have to decide what velocity I intend to push it to. I found pushing lead boolits in pistols to about 900 fps in a pistol can be done successfully without a gas check. Over 900fps to 1,000 I may or may not use a gas check. Over 1,000fps I always use a gas check. And in my 45 Colt loads I push 300gr lead with gas check well past 1,200fps into the .454 Casull range. No leading. I shoot 38/357 lead with no gas checks from 750fps to around 1,000fps.

For rifle rounds I always use a gas check even with a load I shoot for my Mosin nagant in the 1,400fps range. I could proabably get away with no gas check up to about 1,700 or 1,800fps but why even bother when the cost of lead boolits with gas check are only a penny or two more. I load up to about 2,100 to 2,200fps. After that lead boolits seem to become unstable in my rifles/applications.

For powder choices there are some that are particularly good with lead boolits. For pistols I use Titegroup, Bullseye, IMR Target, Unique and there are tons of others. For rifles I use H4895, IMR 4895, IMR 4064 and my favorite IMR 4198. I have tried with H335 with limited success.

There are a lot of powders that work well with lead boolits. To find out which powders work well, and for getting some good load data I recommend you get the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. If you have the 49th edition of the Lyman manual you probably have about 75% of the load data in there. But I like the Lead manual as I don't have to look past the jacketed load data and I only have to concentrate on velocity and powder/charge.

There are many other items to consider but the Lyman manual pretty much covers everything you will need to know.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

oldfart

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 07:00:14 PM »
When I was younger, I thought harder was better.
Nowadays softer is OK too.

...
Are we talking about pistols or rifles?
What, Me Worry?

rklapp

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 07:01:07 PM »
I also don't cast but I finally received my 170 gn GC .312" boolits from Beartooth Bullets. It took three months to receive. They're not powder coated so I'm kinda afraid to touch them. (kidding) Now I'm not sure what powder to try with my MN 91/30. I haven't had great success with other boolits I've ordered. They have been powder coated and don't recall large chunks of lead coming out of the barrel. It will be interesting to see if I get lead fouling with these new boolits.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:33:57 PM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

OldMose

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 10:58:37 PM »
Not magic but attention to detail.  I'm still learning.  You are welcome to
shoot lead bullets in my 300 black AR, 9mm Glock (aftermarket barrel)
and M1A.  Check for leading afterwards.  Feel free to PM. 
Like Inspector said, diameter, hardness and powder play a role.

Helps when you can cast your own, even with inexpensive stuff like Lee
molds and furnace.  Even better if someone to can cast for you.  Wind
blows the wrong way and I feel ill when rendering down scrap.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:48:53 AM by OldMose »

rklapp

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 11:10:04 PM »
My Beartooth cast boolits are ready to go for my MN 91/30. Trying different loads of RL7 based on what they have in the Lyman book. I bought the red boolits from Missouri Bullet Co. about six months ago but the RL15 and 700x didn't work well so will see how they fare with the RL7. I'll be checking the barrel afterwards for signs of lead.

Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 04:54:17 AM »
I just invested (Wasted my money?) on the 45th edition of the Lyman Reloading manual. It is from the late 60's/early 70's. It not only has a lot of data for for more obsolete cartridges than I have ever seen, but it also provides a world of data for reduced loads and lead bullet loads. If you are going to load rifle cartridges with lead boolits I would also highly recommend you get your hands on an older manual like the one I just bought.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

rklapp

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 01:52:27 PM »
I just invested (Wasted my money?) on the 45th edition of the Lyman Reloading manual. It is from the late 60's/early 70's. It not only has a lot of data for for more obsolete cartridges than I have ever seen, but it also provides a world of data for reduced loads and lead bullet loads. If you are going to load rifle cartridges with lead boolits I would also highly recommend you get your hands on an older manual like the one I just bought.
Yeah, I have the 49th. Someone also copied for me the 54r page out of the Lyman Cast Book which is why I tried the 700x. I need to add filler for the reduced loads. What do you suggest?
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 02:58:41 PM »
What powder are you using for the reduced loads that you need to use a filler? And what makes you feel you need to use a filler in that (those) loads?

I will give you my recommendations based on your answers to both questions.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

rklapp

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 05:21:48 PM »
The book has load data for Unique and 2400 for the 54r but couldn't find those powders, so I got 700x listed for the .303 Brit. I tried the recommended 10 to 13 gr, but didn't work well. I suspect it might be because the powder is laying at the side of the case so doesn't burn consistently. I watched one video where he used Cream o Wheat and it didn't work out well with the inside of his rifle caked in burnt wheat.


Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 05:44:13 PM »
The book has load data for Unique and 2400 for the 54r but couldn't find those powders, so I got 700x listed for the .303 Brit. I tried the recommended 10 to 13 gr, but didn't work well. I suspect it might be because the powder is laying at the side of the case so doesn't burn consistently. I watched one video where he used Cream o Wheat and it didn't work out well with the inside of his rifle caked in burnt wheat.


That's a lot of cream of wheat. I only use cream of wheat with black powder. For that type of cartridge I prefer cotton or Dacron fill. I have also experimented with backer rod which is a foam rod that you can squish and fill the case with. It is quick and easy and seems to burn completely. It is cheap and available at Home Depot. For straight wall cases I have also used a wad to hold powder in place. If I may make a suggestion. My Lyman cast book also shows use of IMR 4198 with a 200gr boolit and it shows the accuracy load using IMR 4198. Off the top of my head I cannot remember the load. But check the page you have. IMR 4198 is one of the best powders for using cast boolits and reduced loads. IMR 4198 is not position sensitive in all of my load testing and it fills the case sufficiently that I don't think you can double charge and position is not an issue. Hodgdons website has a white paper on how to load reduced loads using only H4895. It is a very simple process. I use both of these powders for reduced loads and neither is position sensitive, offer good accuracy and work well with lead boolits. If you can't find the white paper I think I have a copy of it I can send you.

Both of these powders are readily available currently and in my experience work very well for the loading you are trying to accomplish.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

rklapp

Re: No leading? Fo' real?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2017, 06:18:35 PM »
That's a lot of cream of wheat. I only use cream of wheat with black powder. For that type of cartridge I prefer cotton or Dacron fill. I have also experimented with backer rod which is a foam rod that you can squish and fill the case with. It is quick and easy and seems to burn completely. It is cheap and available at Home Depot. For straight wall cases I have also used a wad to hold powder in place. If I may make a suggestion. My Lyman cast book also shows use of IMR 4198 with a 200gr boolit and it shows the accuracy load using IMR 4198. Off the top of my head I cannot remember the load. But check the page you have. IMR 4198 is one of the best powders for using cast boolits and reduced loads. IMR 4198 is not position sensitive in all of my load testing and it fills the case sufficiently that I don't think you can double charge and position is not an issue. Hodgdons website has a white paper on how to load reduced loads using only H4895. It is a very simple process. I use both of these powders for reduced loads and neither is position sensitive, offer good accuracy and work well with lead boolits. If you can't find the white paper I think I have a copy of it I can send you.
Both of these powders are readily available currently and in my experience work very well for the loading you are trying to accomplish.
I'll check it out. They seem to have I4198 at HGS, WGS, and SEC so must be rather popular. I need to revisit the Hodgdon white paper. Mahalo.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/