Only happens in the mainland... (Read 5162 times)

eyeeatingfish

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2022, 01:42:12 PM »
I think this is the result of years of us dismantling the "nuclear family"

That might be part of it but we have a huge problem with drug abuse and PTSD. I don't know whether this suspect had mental health problems from PTSD or substance abuse though. Maybe he was just born with his problems.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2022, 01:57:21 PM »
That might be part of it but we have a huge problem with drug abuse and PTSD. I don't know whether this suspect had mental health problems from PTSD or substance abuse though. Maybe he was just born with his problems.

Drug abuse.

PTSD.

Both can be the result of having no nuclear family or similar personal support structure.  If not the result, then at least having it get worse without addressing the problems to help the individual learn to deal with it nondestructively.

It's possible to trace back nearly all causes of crimes, including those of violence, with a lack of a close, supportive family.

Why was his family not with him at the station when he was released?  Why was nobody there to supervise him, make sure he takes his meds (if in fact he has a diagnosed mental illness for which drugs can allow him to function in society)?  Where did the "system" expect him to GO after release?

Most inmates with mental illness are released onto the streets with some cash and either a few days supply of their meds or absolutely nothing for their illness.  After the benefits of incarceration-controlled meds wear off, then what?  No family to get a prescription filled, to see that they take it as scheduled, or to give them a safe place to stay until they find their own.

I know you have experience with mental illness in your family.  Do you think your brother would have been able to take care of himself without family to watch out for  him?  Government (the system) is definitely not going to do that for him.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2022, 02:12:21 PM »
Drug abuse.

PTSD.

Both can be the result of having no nuclear family or similar personal support structure.  If not the result, then at least having it get worse without addressing the problems to help the individual learn to deal with it nondestructively.

It's possible to trace back nearly all causes of crimes, including those of violence, with a lack of a close, supportive family.

Why was his family not with him at the station when he was released?  Why was nobody there to supervise him, make sure he takes his meds (if in fact he has a diagnosed mental illness for which drugs can allow him to function in society)?  Where did the "system" expect him to GO after release?

Most inmates with mental illness are released onto the streets with some cash and either a few days supply of their meds or absolutely nothing for their illness.  After the benefits of incarceration-controlled meds wear off, then what?  No family to get a prescription filled, to see that they take it as scheduled, or to give them a safe place to stay until they find their own.

I know you have experience with mental illness in your family.  Do you think your brother would have been able to take care of himself without family to watch out for  him?  Government (the system) is definitely not going to do that for him.

For drug abuse certainly a solid family structure helps. I would say it is far from a guarantee but it is a good bet that raising kids well in a good family will help them avoid becoming drug abusers. The opioid epidemic seems to have made an exception to this though.

PTSD I think much less so. A solid family structure isn't going to do as much to insulate from the trauma of war.

My brother (adopted but still call him brother) receives some government support. Not as personalized as my father can provide though. When he lived in a group home he had a little bit more of a support network through the group home system than if he were on his own. Not everyone has a support system though and not always through any fault of their own so I think the government has to play some role.

A lot of these guys don't want to take their meds, it has side effects that make them feel terrible in various ways. So even if we release them back into society with a lifetime supply of meds and a support system if they don't take their meds their mental health issues are going to come right back. I don't know what percentage need to be confined in a mental hospital but there are a certain amount where counseling and drug supplies just don't seem to be able to solve the problem. I don't know whether this guy was one of them but it sure seems that way. Don't know if he had a support system or if he didn't.

A lot of society's ills can be traced back to problems in the family though, I don't know if thats the case for this guy.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2022, 02:34:07 PM »
For drug abuse certainly a solid family structure helps. I would say it is far from a guarantee but it is a good bet that raising kids well in a good family will help them avoid becoming drug abusers. The opioid epidemic seems to have made an exception to this though.

PTSD I think much less so. A solid family structure isn't going to do as much to insulate from the trauma of war.

My brother (adopted but still call him brother) receives some government support. Not as personalized as my father can provide though. When he lived in a group home he had a little bit more of a support network through the group home system than if he were on his own. Not everyone has a support system though and not always through any fault of their own so I think the government has to play some role.

A lot of these guys don't want to take their meds, it has side effects that make them feel terrible in various ways. So even if we release them back into society with a lifetime supply of meds and a support system if they don't take their meds their mental health issues are going to come right back. I don't know what percentage need to be confined in a mental hospital but there are a certain amount where counseling and drug supplies just don't seem to be able to solve the problem. I don't know whether this guy was one of them but it sure seems that way. Don't know if he had a support system or if he didn't.

A lot of society's ills can be traced back to problems in the family though, I don't know if thats the case for this guy.

Do you know if the opioid epidemic would have started if everyone had a stable and supportive family?  Supportive families are not a given in wealthier, more upper and middle class homes.  Let's talk Hunter Biden, if you need an example of how a nuclear family doesn't just mean mommy and daddy are married.

PTSD may not be cured by family, but learning to cope and deal with it, and having someone there when needed, makes all the difference.

I've probably had PTSD to some degree, and I can say the feeling of not being able to control how you feel is more frightening than the direct symptoms of it.  Having someone near you to make you feel safe during these times is a massive step toward living with it and eventually getting over it.

You are the one who likes to talk in broad generalities, which is why this conversation veered into this direction.

Nobody knows what the specifics are with the attacker's life, family, mental illness or treatment.  That goes without saying .... so you had to say it.

There are few cures for mental illness, but there are ways to safely and productively live with it.  When people with these problems are released from jail, there should be someone to assist them so they find their way to a pharmacy, family member's home, hospital -- whatever it takes to make sure they aren't just free to roam the streets when we know that's a bad "solution."

All these people screaming that Cops need more training to deal with the mentally ill people they encounter, or that social services professionals ride along with Cops to deal with those cases.  Maybe we need mandatory mental illness screening in all jails and prisons, and anyone identified must have specific support actions taken while incarcerated, when in court and upon release.  If we can't care for them BEFORE they commit a crime, maybe we should make an effort to care for them afterward so they are less likely to do it again.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2022, 08:01:39 PM »
Do you know if the opioid epidemic would have started if everyone had a stable and supportive family?  Supportive families are not a given in wealthier, more upper and middle class homes.  Let's talk Hunter Biden, if you need an example of how a nuclear family doesn't just mean mommy and daddy are married.

PTSD may not be cured by family, but learning to cope and deal with it, and having someone there when needed, makes all the difference.

I've probably had PTSD to some degree, and I can say the feeling of not being able to control how you feel is more frightening than the direct symptoms of it.  Having someone near you to make you feel safe during these times is a massive step toward living with it and eventually getting over it.

You are the one who likes to talk in broad generalities, which is why this conversation veered into this direction.

Nobody knows what the specifics are with the attacker's life, family, mental illness or treatment.  That goes without saying .... so you had to say it.

There are few cures for mental illness, but there are ways to safely and productively live with it.  When people with these problems are released from jail, there should be someone to assist them so they find their way to a pharmacy, family member's home, hospital -- whatever it takes to make sure they aren't just free to roam the streets when we know that's a bad "solution."

All these people screaming that Cops need more training to deal with the mentally ill people they encounter, or that social services professionals ride along with Cops to deal with those cases.  Maybe we need mandatory mental illness screening in all jails and prisons, and anyone identified must have specific support actions taken while incarcerated, when in court and upon release.  If we can't care for them BEFORE they commit a crime, maybe we should make an effort to care for them afterward so they are less likely to do it again.

The opioid epidemic seemed to buck the trend a little because it seemed to hit people who were better off more. Hard to say just how much of a difference it makes.

I agree that having a good support system helps a lot with PTSD. I have read a number of accounts where friends/family, coworkers made things worse or better.

I do believe there are mental health care people who see prisoners fo issues. No idea how much of a difference they make or how many people they intercept.

ren

Deeds Not Words

changemyoil66

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2022, 10:46:46 PM »
it's the "system's fault"

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/03/01/father-murder-suspect-calls-investigation-into-how-his-son-was-allowed-walk-free/
I knew a skitzo. Same story, in and out of prison. Takes meds and is a super nice guy. In prison, theres a regiment of pill taking. Once out, a few weeks goes by, then he stops meds because he thinks he doesnt need it. Also he has $, so no need work. Too much $ and free time.

His care takers can only do so much about forcing pills.

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hvybarrels

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2022, 10:54:16 PM »
When are we going to stop calling it a mental health crisis and start referring to it as a mental health pandemic to get the ball rolling on some sort of response from the State?

Who am I kidding though. They would probably just form a committee to figure out ways to make it worse.

https://www.kitv.com/news/crime/waialua-father-38-and-child-3-found-dead-after-apparent-murder-suicide/article_6d867f74-98e1-11ec-a0d1-bb71dbb33dab.html
Pretending to be offended does not make you a good person.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2022, 11:00:49 PM »
When are we going to stop calling it a mental health crisis and start referring to it as a mental health pandemic to get the ball rolling on some sort of response from the State?

Who am I kidding though. They would probably just form a committee to figure out ways to make it worse.

https://www.kitv.com/news/crime/waialua-father-38-and-child-3-found-dead-after-apparent-murder-suicide/article_6d867f74-98e1-11ec-a0d1-bb71dbb33dab.html

If we had a new law institutionalizing the mentally ill, 98% of the Democrat politicians and their voters would be committed.

2 birds, 1 stone?   :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Deeds Not Words

aieahound

Re: Only happens in the mainland...
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2022, 03:32:30 PM »
I knew a skitzo. Same story, in and out of prison. Takes meds and is a super nice guy. In prison, theres a regiment of pill taking. Once out, a few weeks goes by, then he stops meds because he thinks he doesnt need it. Also he has $, so no need work. Too much $ and free time.

His care takers can only do so much about forcing pills.

We had a guy wandered Porteus Hall at UH.
Nice guy seemed academically curious when on meds.
People would walk the halls saying “off his meds” meaning heads up stay away.
Wasn’t a put down you could just tell when he went off his meds.

But then there’s a bunch of mass murderers on meds.
Or did they go off them ?