First, the book was updated in 2009.  Hardly seems ignorant of the modern situation, does it? 

Those are exactly the type of people I was referring to, and the media in general is what Grossman credits, with special emphasis on video games.  However, if you're willing to admit that books, movies, etc, could contribute to desensitizing a person to violence, you're on the right track.  But you're wrong to say they're nothing special.  Video games are very special; they're the only form of media where YOU are the one pulling the trigger, vice reading/watching/listening to a story about someone else doing the deed. 

I reacted the same way that you did when I first read the book.  I started playing DOOM when I was about ten; my folks got me Duke Nukem 3D for Christmas when it came out, and I've been a steady consumer of every FPS that's come out since.  I love video games, and I turned out just fine.  I said, "Dave, you're a goddamn hippie."  But stop and think about it.  You have kids spending hours and hours in what amounts to a combat simulator; pretending that would have no effect whatsoever on a developing mind is pretty obtuse. 

You stated twice that video games aren't special, in the same post where you asserted that the industry is HUGE and overtaking Hollywood as the dominant media outlet.  We had gunpowder for 500 years, repeating rifles and pistols for 150 years, and kids didn't start shooting up schools until forty years ago.  Can you explain what happened?  I'm not saying that video games are entirely responsible, because nothing happens in a vacuum, but to claim no effect is stupid. 

Finally, you're drawing a false parallel between guns and video games, here.  We all know the varied and sundry benefits of firearms ownership, so I doubt we need to re-hash them here.  Aside from "they're lots of fun", and understanding that I also enjoy video games, can you state a single tangible benefit offered by violent video games?

does there need to be a tangible benefit?

you're getting very close to arguing for censorship.

let's just ban imagination too.  in my imagination, i can pull the trigger anytime.

video games are a drop in the bucket.  what changed is society as a whole, even before video games.environments kids grow up in today, even without video games, are radically different than they were 50 years ago.  the social norms and expectations, the stresses, and views held by their everyone else are all very different than they used to be. 

and kids started shooting up schools before video games.  there were a bunch of school shootings in the 80's.  unless you're going to suggest that Sonic and Super mario pushed those kids over the edge, the point just doesnt work.  the difference between now and then isnt more violent  video games.  its media coverage.

there were vastly more deaths in the 90's from school shootings compared to the 2000's.  there isnt a tangible link there. 

We're losing what made us a great country. Strong values, a sense of nationalism, ethics...replaced by Ainokea and EBT

Since we're on this subject, if I may I'd like to add another point of view.

I was big into gaming and it took a conscious and long effort for me to get rid of it as a hobby. I personally think gaming can quickly become a life stealer. A quote from one of my favorite books says "When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. (1 Corinthians 13:11 NLT)". It wasn't until I decided to "grow up" (give up gaming completely) and focus more on life instead of games, did my perspective change.

Unfortunately, a lot of our boys and even men refuse to grow up and continue to act like children through adulthood.  I'm not necessarily saying anyone here specifically is childish since I don't know you guys that well, but the problem is that our society adult males do not grow up and continue to act like kids. Asking the government, the union or their employers to take care of them instead of taking personal responsibility for their lives and for their spouses and children's needs.

In my opinion, this is the root of the problems we are having with the males in our society.  Males are disenfranchised and are distracted by entertainment instead of being adults and being a more responsible person in our community.  How many single moms do we have now in our society?  Where are the guys when the mother of their child and their children need a man in the house?

It's sad. We don't allow folks to teach the bible in school and yet we let the kids read about vampires and witchcraft in school. Harry potter?  Twilight?   They spend all day playing computer games and modeling socially inappropriate behavior that they see on tv.  This morally relativistic societal worldview just isn't bringing us to a better place.

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Agree that some troubled individuals may already be desensitized, but some troubled individuals may not already be desensitized, right?

Agree that true psychopaths and sociopaths may not function the way most of society does and true psychopaths and sociopaths may have different emotions or inhibitions or perceptions, but not all troubled individuals are psychopaths or sociopaths, right?

and so what?  the solution is censorship on account of the few bad seeds?

why should i be punished because someone else is a psychopath?

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When you can present your position calmly and rationally, and respectful of the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, even though the opinions may be contrary to your own opinions, I think you stand the greatest chance of persuading someone to open their minds to your position.

The moment you start using blanket statements or words like "stupid" or "irrelevant" to support your position is the moment that your adversary stops listening to your argument and stops hearing the message you are trying to convey.

Just my 2 cents.

Sounds like 2 cents well spent!

I'm talking about censorshbip because if people are going to suggest the video gvames aren't healthy, the next logical step in that thought train is censorship.  I've been seen this stuff being spouted off since columbine commentors blamed Doom and Marilyn Manson.  If you don't believe a form of media is healthy, there is really only one action that can do anything about it and that's some form of censorship.

If I seem defensive, its because this scapegoating sounds far too much like people blaming music, guns or anything else they thought was responsible for someone commiting a tragic crime.  Its bad enough that I have one hobby questioned, I don't need to come here where people know damn well how frustrating that feels and have another innocuous hobby of mine questioned too.

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Agree that some troubled individuals may already be desensitized, but some troubled individuals may not already be desensitized, right?

Agree that true psychopaths and sociopaths may not function the way most of society does and true psychopaths and sociopaths may have different emotions or inhibitions or perceptions, but not all troubled individuals are psychopaths or sociopaths, right?

I think that depends on what your definition of troubled is. Anyone who would shoot up a mall/school/church/anywhere really should probably be described using a much harsher word, but I used troubled so that may be my error.

To be more clear, anyone would do something like this does not need to be desensitized. They already have the propensity to do so and just need the right trigger to set them off.

If so called desensitizing effects did produce such results then we should have a lot more shootings because millions of people share the same "desensitizing" stimuli.

I'm talking about censorshbip because if people are going to suggest the video gvames aren't healthy, the next logical step in that thought train is censorship.  I've been seen this stuff being spouted off since columbine commentors blamed Doom and Marilyn Manson.  If you don't believe a form of media is healthy, there is really only one action that can do anything about it and that's some form of censorship.

If I seem defensive, its because this scapegoating sounds far too much like people blaming music, guns or anything else they thought was responsible for someone commiting a tragic crime.  Its bad enough that I have one hobby questioned, I don't need to come here where people know damn well how frustrating that feels and have another innocuous hobby of mine questioned too.

No, that's not the next logical step.  That's the end of the logical line, in fact.  I'm not saying that video games are 100% of the answer; a lot of the other things that have been mentioned certainly play a role.  Especially the post about extended childhood--the world is becoming a Never-Never Land where people have their parents to look after them in their childhood, and the benevolent government to look after them in adulthood. 

But getting back to the point, censorship of video games is, as I said, the complete end of the line rather than the next logical step.  We have lots of things that are bad for us, cigarettes, McDonald's, booze, you name it, and they're all completely legal.  However, there is a social stigma that would accompany a parent who fed their child McDonald's every single day.  No such stigma exists for a ten-year old who plays Grand Theft Auto or Modern Warfare for six hours a day.  That's perfectly normal parenting in these United States. 

No one is calling for censorship of your video games, but your strident protests in defense of same suggests that maybe you should get out more.

but your strident protests in defense of same suggests that maybe you should get out more.

because that was necessary.

i just find the suggestion that a form of media can be responsible for something like this rather insulting.

Not sure if anyone has seen this, yet.

Apparently CCW did play a role at the Clackamas shooting.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

I used to live across the street from that Mall.

http://easybakegunclub.com/news/1943/Clackamas-Mall-Shooter-Was-Confonted-By-Concealed-.html


here is another story.... JOB well done SIR