For most of the video he was just mouthing. At one point he Has his hands in his pockets. I saw no imminent threat. Only posturing and a lot of verbal aggression.

You're not a police officer. You don't get to use that as an example. It would be different with a police officer because the officer has a weapon and he has to maintain a reactionary gap.

Because the officer has a gun, in plain view, within reach. You don't. The officer has a duty to address the problem. You can retreat, the officer can't.


Additionally, I guarantee the officer wouldn't shoot him because he was aggressive, as some people on here suggested they would do.

Obviously, he would identify himself, call for a uniformed patrol unit and attempt to defuse the situation. Again, He would not shoot the guy.

That's where the problem lies. Military use of force, while similar, is different from civilian use of force. At one time, The military was training soldiers in country to kick the guy in the nuts as a distraction before attempting to flexicuff them.

In this situation, You never expose your gun. You accept the added maturity and responsibility that comes with carrying CCW, grab your shit and leave.

If you are carrying a gun so you can flex your muscles and say I got a gun at every opportunity you don't deserve nor have the maturity to be allowed to carry CCW.

My my...Its amazing how many experts in the field of CCW and LEO are emerging on the forum these days, especially since most of them lived in Hawaii most of their lives and have no LEO experience whatsoever.

  now the fun starts

In this situation, You never expose your gun. You accept the added maturity and responsibility that comes with carrying CCW, grab your shit and leave.

If you are carrying a gun so you can flex your muscles and say I got a gun at every opportunity you don't deserve nor have the maturity to be allowed to carry CCW.

ok, we have one vote for i am not mature enough, and i accept that answer
i am not trained nor secure enough with my knowledge of laws and weapons handling at this point to carry

and we have one vote for verbal, then pepper/oc spray, then weapon only if forcibly threatened

anyone else have a contribution?

ok, i realize that if we get CCW, we will most likely get education in this area,  but at what point in this video would it be ok to let the aggressor know you are armed?
do you do the "expose the gun trick" like in the cowboy movies where they sweep their long jackets out of the way
do you blade yourself, put your hand on the hangun grip and get in weapons retention mode?
do you draw and keep the weapon at low ready with your finger off the trigger?
when and where do you do each step?

I don't understand the context of your question.

Presentation of deadly force is drawing the weapon and informing the individual of your intent to fire should he continue displaying aggression towards you; no one in real life, that has actual experience in these situations, does that cowboy or blade shit. You draw, keep it at the ready, and tell the individual that if he continues that he will be shot.

So once again:

Ask him to stop
Tell him to stop
Present deadly force and tell him that if he doesn't stop, he will be shot
Shoot him if he doesn't stop

ok, we have one vote for i am not mature enough, and i accept that answer
i am not trained nor secure enough with my knowledge of laws and weapons handling at this point to carry

and we have one vote for verbal, then pepper/oc spray, then weapon only if forcibly threatened

anyone else have a contribution?

Why would you be carrying pepper spray if you are CCW? That defeats the whole purpose of CCW, because now you have just increased the total steps within your LOF. You plan on wearing a duty belt like a cop, complete with radio, gloves and handcuffs for citizens arrest? If you want pepper spray to be in your EOF, then just carry pepper spray.

I thought I told you to keep eating your lunch, Mac?!

My my...Its amazing how many experts in the field of CCW and LEO are emerging on the forum these days, especially since most of them lived in Hawaii most of their lives and have no LEO experience whatsoever.

Once again assumption is a bitch. You have no idea....

You wouldn't want to let him know you are armed until that gun is coming out under your control.  If you did the "cowboy sweep" so to speak, it could alert him prematurely and then he could make a run for your gun or you and then you are stuck without it; this could also actually escalate the situation.  Think about the Deedy trial where the witnesses basically said Elderts started taunting back, "So what, You gonna shoot me? Shoot me!" etc.  Overall, you have to be able to justify it, and the way I teach people is that you need to decide: Is this about to be the worse day of my life and can I die or be harmed if I don't respond? If you can't answer both those yes - then you are not there yet. 

Here is how I would try to play it out:

If a man approached my family in that manner, I would start out with verbal (Go away.  Leave us alone.  We are calling the police; and have someone do that last one). Recording is great, but you had (3) people at that table who could have been on the phone with 911.
If my family was at the table, it makes it difficult to just keep walking.  I'm not going to just abandon all of our property and leave.  I don't think anyone would do that.  I would try to use that table as positioning and continue with #1.
If it keeps going at this point, we can try some verbal judo.  "Look man - no one here wants problems, and you don't want to go to jail today."  You can develop key phrases that are catch phrases to throw someone off-guard, making them think about the question / statement a little bit.
Next, I might back up some but with my arms extended around the chest or facial area.  What would likely happen here is either he walks into me or pushes my hands away (both are forms of battery, which in most places is a forcible felony) and it just adds to the use of force justification.

 At this point, it may be a go to present the firearm.  Only you can decide this based on how threatened you are, how serious you think the threat is, and how likely it would be to cause bodily harm or death etc.  If and when you do, it's best to have it out in close retention at this distance.  Chances are when this guy sees a gun - he's going to go away (most incidents end like that).  If he chooses to proceed, well, that's a decision he made and not you.  This should also be accompanied with orders and primal language most likely.  "GET THE FUCK BACK." et.   As citizens, we are held to a much lower standard in the use of force; aside from that, individuals who are instructors or extensively trained, will likely be held to a higher standard as well.


For me, up until the point he tried to grab the phone with physical threats (robbery), I would have continued verbally.  If I had spray on me, the guy would have got that as soon as I could get the can out.   As far as retreating, we are also only required to retreat if we can do so with complete safety. Leaving my wife alone doesn't fit that description to me; that stuff is not happening - I won't leave her in a situation like that it's just cowardly. I would tell her to go away and she would likely listen.

Chris, maybe you shouldn't waste your time on this one anymore. Most of the individuals arguing against you are not operating at the same intellectual capacity with regards to this issue, and its only going going to stress you out trying to convince them otherwise.

Obviously we have guys who have watched a little bit too much UFC and a few youtube videos/magpul dvds and think they are now martial arts, LEO and CCW experts, even though they have no training or experience in the field, and are telling people who actually have training and experience in the field how to do things.

I don't understand the context of your question.

Presentation of deadly force is drawing the weapon and informing the individual of your intent to fire should he continue displaying aggression towards you; no one in real life, that has actual experience in these situations, does that cowboy or blade shit. You draw, keep it at the ready, and tell the individual that if he continues that he will be shot.

So once again:

Ask him to stop
Tell him to stop
Present deadly force and tell him that if he doesn't stop, he will be shot
Shoot him if he doesn't stop


Why would you be carrying pepper spray if you are CCW? That defeats the whole purpose of CCW, because now you have just increased the total steps within your LOF. You plan on wearing a duty belt like a cop, complete with radio, gloves and handcuffs for citizens arrest? If you want pepper spray to be in your EOF, then just carry pepper spray.

I thought I told you to keep eating your lunch, Mac?!

it's not lunchtime yet, q
and we're all just discussing and learning different viewpoints
and i will be wearing my batsuit with utility belt AND CCW (i will hide the gun in my codpiece)

so in your scenario above, when you present the deadly force, are you at low ready, or covering the guy with your finger off the trigger?

Chris, maybe you shouldn't waste your time on this one anymore. Most of the individuals arguing against you are not operating at the same intellectual capacity with regards to this issue, and its only going going to stress you out trying to convince them otherwise.

Obviously we have guys who have watched a little bit too much UFC and a few youtube videos/magpul dvds and think they are now martial arts, LEO and CCW experts, even though they have no training or experience in the field, and are telling people who actually have training and experience in the field how to do things.

discussions are not a waste of time
chris has far more experience and training than most of us, and his comments are valid

Once again assumption is a bitch. You have no idea....

Once again assumption is a bitch. You have no idea....

Would you like to tell us about your extensive experience?

Allow me to begin:

I was a former Navy SEAL who transferred to 1st Group Special Forces, and then went on to become a State Trooper who was so amazing, that they then proceeded to promote me to head of the SWAT team within 3 weeks. I am now the acting Chief of Police after just 6 months, because I am so awesome.

Of course, this actually happened within the past 5 min of my life, but hey who cares....its the internet, and I can type whatever I want and it will automatically be true.

Unless you can provide proof, or someone else can vouch for you, no one really cares about your imaginary training or experience.

Now please excuse me while I go watch a youtube video on DEA agents so I can add 'knowledge of DEA training/operations/procedures' to my training/experience resume

Once again assumption is a bitch. You have no idea....

Care to educate on experience and your training on escalation of force with your family there? Serious question, looking for education.

it's not lunchtime yet, q
and we're all just discussing and learning different viewpoints
and i will be wearing my batsuit with utility belt AND CCW (i will hide the gun in my codpiece)

so in your scenario above, when you present the deadly force, are you at low ready, or covering the guy with your finger off the trigger?

You should wear a modified codpiece revolver, fitted to shoot your OC/pepper spray. That way when you use it, you can scream 'JAPANEE SHISHI!' 

When I have presented deadly force in the past, it was always at the high ready because if I am at the point of presentation, it wouldn't take much more to escalate to deadly force, and I want to be in an advantageous position. Low ready is more of a traversing position, and to avoid flagging / friendly fire. During presentation of deadly force, you are presenting the possibility of death, so I would rather have my weapon locked on target while I make the point that if you continue demonstrating aggression towards me, you will be killed.

discussions are not a waste of time
chris has far more experience and training than most of us, and his comments are valid

I'm not saying discussion is a waste of time; I'm saying Chris is wasting his time trying to discuss valid points of which he has training on, and people keep pulling magical facts out of their ass to try and disprove his experience.

Geez Mac, you need to eat your damn lunch! You don't think straight without your fruit juice box!

Nah. Don't care to let everyone know what I do. There is a few people on this forum that have actually met me.

My family is priority. My first concern would be their safety not my pride. I would pack my shit up and leave immediately. My gun would stay hidden on my hip the whole time.

You should wear a modified codpiece revolver, fitted to shoot your OC/pepper spray. That way when you use it, you can scream 'JAPANEE SHISHI!' 

When I have presented deadly force in the past, it was always at the high ready because if I am at the point of presentation, it wouldn't take much more to escalate to deadly force, and I want to be in an advantageous position. Low ready is more of a traversing position, and to avoid flagging / friendly fire. During presentation of deadly force, you are presenting the possibility of death, so I would rather have my weapon locked on target while I make the point that if you continue demonstrating aggression towards me, you will be killed.

I'm not saying discussion is a waste of time; I'm saying Chris is wasting his time trying to discuss valid points of which he has training on, and people keep pulling magical facts out of their ass to try and disprove his experience.

Geez Mac, you need to eat your damn lunch! You don't think straight without your fruit juice box!

how do you know my codpiece isn't both holster AND OC dispenser?

ah, i forgot about high ready
makes much more sense to be at high ready, thanks

no fruit juice box for me, snickers really satisfies me
fun size, of course

now the fun starts

I am with you on this thread.  I was just pointing out that no matter what color you are or what ethnicity you are claiming, if you are acting like dude in the video then you are an asshole.  Period.  Was speaking in general and I too think he is getting way too much attention.  But I have a feeling karma will bite him in the ass someday.  Hopefully it has really sharp pointy teeth!   

I am with you on this thread.  I was just pointing out that no matter what color you are or what ethnicity you are claiming, if you are acting like dude in the video then you are an asshole.  Period.  Was speaking in general and I too think he is getting way too much attention.  But I have a feeling karma will bite him in the ass someday.  Hopefully it has really sharp pointy teeth!   

yup it will and I do understand where you were coming from . Just having fun on a thread were I knew it was going to get to this point of arguments by members . We all here for the same cause but yet could never agree on most things . Yet in arguments like this I do get to learn of people experience's tho hope not be in these situations. I had no lessons in this situation . Just a country kid trying to learn city ways . A moke is not Hawaiian , japanese , white, ect. He's just an idiot fueled on Heineken trying to take over the world one beach at a time . Q and Dblnaknak be easy .  Be safe people

When I have presented deadly force in the past, it was always at the high ready because if I am at the point of presentation, it wouldn't take much more to escalate to deadly force, and I want to be in an advantageous position. Low ready is more of a traversing position, and to avoid flagging / friendly fire. During presentation of deadly force, you are presenting the possibility of death, so I would rather have my weapon locked on target while I make the point that if you continue demonstrating aggression towards me, you will be killed.

Ahhh. And there is the inexperience or just plain bad habit.

So you're going to pull your gun and be at the "high" ready to anticipate deadly force? In the real world that gun stays in its holster until you are already faced with deadly force and have already made the decision that deadly force is needed.

Are you even familiar with the use of force continuum and the de-escalation there of.

What if the situation de-escalates? Now you have to try and holster your gun while addressing the suspect. What if he is unarmed and now tries to tackle you? Do you use deadly force? I hope not. (Prison) I would love to be a fly on the wall when you explain to 12 jurors that you shot him because he tried to tackle you.

Unless your a cop, Putting yourself in a deadly situation is not justification for the use of deadly force.

I like f'ing white people, but now that I'm married I don't really have a choice.

My family is priority. My first concern would be their safety not my pride. I would pack my shit up and leave immediately. My gun would stay hidden on my hip the whole time.

I would agree with this. The guy is acting like an asshole, however use of deadly force is not warranted yet, IMO.  Better to exit the area and keep everyone safe. Report incident to LE.  Nothing else one could really do in the instance.  Lose lose situation

Ahhh. And there is the inexperience or just plain bad habit.

So you're going to pull your gun and be at the "high" ready to anticipate deadly force? In the real world that gun stays in its holster until you are already faced with deadly force and have already made the decision that deadly force is needed.

Are you even familiar with the use of force continuum and the de-escalation there of.

What if the situation de-escalates? Now you have to try and holster your gun while addressing the suspect. What if he is unarmed and now tries to tackle you? Do you use deadly force? I hope not. (Prison) I would love to be a fly on the wall when you explain to 12 jurors that you shot him because he tried to tackle you.

Unless your a cop, Putting yourself in a deadly situation is not justification for the use of deadly force.

For someone with a vivid imagination, you sure are slow sometimes!  Imagine drawing and holding your firearm, which you drew because you feared the guy would actually do what he just told you he would do to you, and then the aggressor tackles you and takes your gun from you. 

I'd shoot him first.  Anyone stupid enough to tackle someone holding a gun on them is also stupid enough to try and kill you over a stupid argument...

It's simple math:  he terrorizes you verbally + you have a gun + he continues to attack

Gun drawn = reasonable fear of serious injury/death = upper hand

Attacker seeing he is outgunned continues = high/stupid/angry enough to kill

What if he is unarmed and now tries to tackle you? Do you use deadly force? I hope not. (Prison) I would love to be a fly on the wall when you explain to 12 jurors that you shot him because he tried to tackle you.

You're asserting that investigators, prosecutors and a jury would conclusively rule that an assault by an unarmed person could not possibly lead to a "reasonable belief" in imminent death or serious bodily injury? Mr. Martin was unarmed when Mr. Zimmerman defended himself with a weapon. Or are you claiming that (acquittal) could only happen in Florida, or never happen in Hawaii, given their respective laws?