That's why I have the $450.00 slightly modified Rock Island A-1.

Sane reason why I have a S&W SD9VE and SD40VE in my quick access safes. Both are inexpensive reliable pistols.

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I did not know that about the 40 and 45

Regardless, another reason not to use a souped up 1911 loaded with Gold dots is again, legal defensibility.
Now you have a civil attorney questioning you about the "huge powerful 45 ammo designed to inflict maximum damage to my client" being fired from a "highly modified 45 caliber semiautomatic pistol with a modified hair trigger"

Or something along those lines...you get the idea?

Oh yeah, they will also confiscate your $2000 tactical-1911-custom-rail-surfire-laserbeamed-kimber. Probably be gone for years while you get sued by the family of the perp you offed.
My thought is your sd gun should be a high quality nearly stock item with the same ammo as is being issued by the local pd to the average beat cop.
Better still if you can get a gun similar to the make and model of the local beat cops.
If you off a perp with a stock gun and it gets confiscated, you won't be crying at the loss of a beloved custom 1911.

Minor point:  The COPs don't keep evidence for civil trials.  Once the criminal investigation is over, assuming they do not press charges, the gun is no longer evidence.  If charges get filed, then that extends the confiscation period.

It's still a good idea to not use a "family heirloom" for protection, to avoid the potential for long term confiscation or even loss at the hands of the property clerk.  it happens!

.40 is just as accurate for me and since our mags are neutered there's no real advantage for 9mm

Do you need one, or do you want one? Either way, buy the best that you can afford, and that includes ammo. For me personally, I don't have the need or the desire to own a 9. I'm actually reducing the number of firearms that I own by selling off 2 .45's to finance one. I have a new 1911 in .45 coming in this week, and I already put 2 up for sale last week with one sale pending. Just trying to keep things simple.

Minor point:  The COPs don't keep evidence for civil trials.  Once the criminal investigation is over, assuming they do not press charges, the gun is no longer evidence.  If charges get filed, then that extends the confiscation period.

It's still a good idea to not use a "family heirloom" for protection, to avoid the potential for long term confiscation or even loss at the hands of the property clerk.  it happens!

Related.. my $0.02.. don't use a gun with punisher slide covers or similar cosmetic mods that make it all scary-looking for SD. Purely anecdotal on my part.. but I can definitely see a prosecutor blowing up a photo showing an evil-looking skull to convince a jury you were looking to kill someone.

Well.......115+115 DOES equal 230. Why strain yourself by having to pull the trigger twice?

Not to mention the wear and tear on your beloved firearm.

Also, IMO, there is a much greater chance of over penetration with 9mm as it depends on higher velocity to get the job done.
At the distances involved in most home defense situations the .45 ACP will deliver more kinetic energy to the target with less velocity.Here's a question, if I'm forced to defend my business from an armed robber, can I expense the wear and maintenance of my firearm as well the cost of ammo?

                                                                       

If you look closely at the velocities of say 124 gr GDHP and 230 gr GDHP, the "standard" load 124 gr is about 90% of the kinetic energy of the 230 gr (1/2 mass x velocity squared).  But if you look at the 124 gr +P, it actually has slightly more kinetic energy than the 230 gr.  In the big picture, they are all about the same energy, but my point was that the common perception is that the heavier calibers always have more kinetic energy than the lighter calibers and that's not always the case.  In fact, I was just having this conversation with a buddy who is in the HPD and is a former federal LE.  He was considering a Sig 40 S&W for a personal gun because he felt that the 40 S&W would have more kinetic energy (he actually said stopping power  ) than his duty 9 mm. 

For me, I have to factor in the cost of 9 mm in that I want to train as much as I can with my selected defensive load.  I haven't done side by side testing with a shot timer in a while, but I am able to put more rounds on target in less time with a Glock 17 than my H&K USP 40c and a M&P 45. 

Thank you for the wonderful insights. 

If you look closely at the velocities of say 124 gr GDHP and 230 gr GDHP, the "standard" load 124 gr is about 90% of the kinetic energy of the 230 gr (1/2 mass x velocity squared).  But if you look at the 124 gr +P, it actually has slightly more kinetic energy than the 230 gr.  In the big picture, they are all about the same energy, but my point was that the common perception is that the heavier calibers always have more kinetic energy than the lighter calibers and that's not always the case.  In fact, I was just having this conversation with a buddy who is in the HPD and is a former federal LE.  He was considering a Sig 40 S&W for a personal gun because he felt that the 40 S&W would have more kinetic energy (he actually said stopping power  ) than his duty 9 mm. 

For me, I have to factor in the cost of 9 mm in that I want to train as much as I can with my selected defensive load.  I haven't done side by side testing with a shot timer in a while, but I am able to put more rounds on target in less time with a Glock 17 than my H&K USP 40c and a M&P 45. 

I thinks it's been argued that the reason the .45 stops better is because it makes bigger holes in the perp. 

Thank you for the wonderful insights. 

I thinks it's been argued that the reason the .45 stops better is because it makes bigger holes in the perp.

Are you referring to JHP ammunition? 

Regarding military use, I've heard tons of discussion/arguements regarding ammo size, but they're shooting NATO ball ammo.  With regards to modern hollow point ammo, I don't have personal experience, but as mentioned previously, there doesn't appear to be a significant difference in terminal ballistic performance.  Will 45 have a bigger hole?  Probably, but it's the wound cavity that counts IMO.

My point was just the misperceptions regarding terms like "stopping power", "knockdown power", etc.  I'm not saying that all of YOU have those misperceptions, but that many people that I come across do.  However, many of those people aren't into firearms.   

.

Are you referring to JHP ammunition? 

Regarding military use, I've heard tons of discussion/arguements regarding ammo size, but they're shooting NATO ball ammo.  With regards to modern hollow point ammo, I don't have personal experience, but as mentioned previously, there doesn't appear to be a significant difference in terminal ballistic performance.  Will 45 have a bigger hole?  Probably, but it's the wound cavity that counts IMO.

My point was just the misperceptions regarding terms like "stopping power", "knockdown power", etc.  I'm not saying that all of YOU have those misperceptions, but that many people that I come across do.  However, many of those people aren't into firearms.   

Speaking to ball ammo required by NATO. However, it does make sense that even in HP ammo, a larger diameter makes larger holes.
I like to keep Critical Defense ammo due to the plastic tip will keep the hollow point from plugging with debris, enabling the bullet to expand as designed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/


USMC trading in their 9mm Beretta's for Colt 1911's

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/


USMC trading in their 9mm Beretta's for Colt 1911's

IMHO, Beretta aren't the best choice for a 9mm anyway.  Lol

IMHO, Beretta aren't the best choice for a 9mm anyway.  Lol

yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.

yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.

Yes! They switched to make bigger holes!   

.

Yes! They switched to make bigger holes!   

Or they had a bunch of guys like you, Stangzilla, and me who made the decision. Personally the M1911 and M1911A1 are my favorite U.S. military handguns without any doubt.

Didn't take long for this to devolve into a 9mm vs 45 thread.

Or they had a bunch of guys like you, Stangzilla, and me who made the decision. Personally the M1911 and M1911A1 are my favorite U.S. military handguns without any doubt.

anything else just wouldn't be American!   

yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.

The military is limited in the type of ammunition it can use unlike civilians.  So you also need to factor that in.

With modern ammunition, the difference in performance is getting pretty marginal. In theory, the large .45 should create a larger permanent wound channel.

However, look at the three ways to effective stop someone.

Destruction of the central nervous system, aka brain or spine shot.  Near instant incapacitation in almost every case.  Makes no difference between 9mm or .45.

Major organ failure.  Heart, lungs... something that should be working suddenly isn't.  A 9mm or .45 in the right spot will do the same thing.  The temporary wound channel/expansion for either round is significant.

Fatal blood loss.  Probably the only time where the extra size of the .45 would be a clear advantage.  However, it really depends on how many holes, and how close to a major artery you hit.

So in general... accuracy and multiple hits is more important than caliber in most of the aspects.  I love my .45, but I bought it when .45acp was only a few dollars more a box than 9mm.  Now 9mm is between 1/2-2/3rds the price of .45acp on any given day.  Cheaper ammo means more range time. More range time is always a good thing.