Heavies, I agree and I commend you on actually reading the proposal.  Baby-bathwater saying... let's just get this thing moving forward, policies can change later IMHO.

I wouldn't mind a range out in the west side so I don't need to drive all the way down to koko head.  But instead of the state spending all this money on a new facility I would be happy if they would just open the range 7 days a week and extended the hours.

Alright so I asked Tom Berg how  'environmentally harmful ammunition' was being defined. His response:

I will get back to you- should have answer tomorrow- we can remove that language too- not a problem.

I will let you know what he says tomorrow.

Alright so I asked Tom Berg how  'environmentally harmful ammunition' was being defined. His response:

Quote

I will get back to you- should have answer tomorrow- we can remove that language too- not a problem.

I will let you know what he says tomorrow.

BOlded....needs to go.

Public private venture.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/2011/09/berg-wants-shooting-complex-for-west.html?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150304181909915_18798164_10150304196024915&ref=notif&notif_t=open_graph_comment

Testimony sent.  Hopefully we're worrying about nothing with the lead thing, but I did go ahead and add a paragraph at the end of my letter addressing my concerns.  The thing I don't like is exactly what 808shooter said, policies can change.  So if the range has a regulation that says no environmentally harmful ammunition, that might mean tracers today, and lead bullets tomorrow.  I'm all for moving the thing forward, but if we can move it forward without vague wording about environmental harm, so much the better.  Or at least, with a specific exemption stating that lead-based ammunition does not constitute an environmentally harmful substance.

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!

Yep, and it is a known fact that the police and other agencies use our public facilities in any way they please, not following any of the stringent rules the general public must adhere to.

I am going to try to contact Berg today and solicit an answer.  I let everyone know what his comments are.

The proposal was mentioned in the Pacific Business news
http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/2011/09/berg-wants-shooting-complex-for-west.html

Strangely enough, so was this article on the DLNR and feral cows. I guess it's a slow business week
http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/2011/09/dlnr-having-a-cow-over-feral-cattle.html

Tom Berg just posted this over on the HawaiiCCW facebook page but is asking if it should be removed.

This is the reasoning I got regarding why the reso for firing range in Kalaeloa has "environmental friendly" language in it:

For the purpose of being a "Match" range (firing at Paper Targets)
The bullets for an "historic WW-II range" would be much safer than
Older high powered bullets that contain lead.

These bullets also SHATTER and are also designed to be issued to
Undercover officers on aircraft so that a terrorist could be shot - but
the bullets won't penetrate the skin of the aircraft.

Basically they are designed for "short range" use and not long distance
or armor penetrating. This would make for a Safer "Environmental"
Historic WW-II Rifle and Pistol Range ...

http://frangibleammo.com/

Made from a copper/tin composite the SinterFire Bullet does not contain
lead.
By design, its controlled frangibility causes it to break apart upon contact
with
an item harder than itself.

Inherent accuracy and transparency to its lead counterpart, have made the
SinterFire Bullet the frangible bullet of choice. Major ammunition
manufacturers
like Winchester , Federal, ATK/CCI-Speer, and many others all feature
frangible lines
of ammunition utilizing the SinterFire Bullet. A leader in lead free bullets
and lead
free ammunition.

At FrangibleAmmo.com our goal is to make sure that everyone has access
to the safety and environmental benefits of SinterFire bullets and
ammunition.

I wouldn't mind a range out in the west side so I don't need to drive all the way down to koko head.  But instead of the state spending all this money on a new facility I would be happy if they would just open the range 7 days a week and extended the hours.

This is the City & County.

I look at it like the whole Rail issue.  Supposedly this is a public-private venture.  If the City can't come up with the money then it's up to the private sector to make up the shortfall.  In this case the shooting community is large enough it might be able to survive as a viable venture.  It might end up being expensive and I'd be interested to see how the community in the area would greet a range.

Tom Berg just posted this over on the HawaiiCCW facebook page but is asking if it should be removed.

Quote

This is the reasoning I got regarding why the reso for firing range in Kalaeloa has "environmental friendly" language in it:

For the purpose of being a "Match" range (firing at Paper Targets)
The bullets for an "historic WW-II range" would be much safer than
Older high powered bullets that contain lead.

These bullets also SHATTER and are also designed to be issued to
Undercover officers on aircraft so that a terrorist could be shot - but
the bullets won't penetrate the skin of the aircraft.

Basically they are designed for "short range" use and not long distance
or armor penetrating. This would make for a Safer "Environmental"
Historic WW-II Rifle and Pistol Range ...

http://frangibleammo.com/

Made from a copper/tin composite the SinterFire Bullet does not contain
lead.
By design, its controlled frangibility causes it to break apart upon contact
with
an item harder than itself.

Inherent accuracy and transparency to its lead counterpart, have made the
SinterFire Bullet the frangible bullet of choice. Major ammunition
manufacturers
like Winchester , Federal, ATK/CCI-Speer, and many others all feature
frangible lines
of ammunition utilizing the SinterFire Bullet. A leader in lead free bullets
and lead
free ammunition.

At FrangibleAmmo.com our goal is to make sure that everyone has access
to the safety and environmental benefits of SinterFire bullets and
ammunition.

This is also what he just emailed me.
 
It is exactly what we DO NOT WANT!

This will cost shooters!  I would recommend you folks ask it be removed from there, and conventional ammo be allowed!

This is also what he just emailed me.
 
It is exactly what we DO NOT WANT!

This will cost shooters!  I would recommend you folks ask it be removed from there, and conventional ammo be allowed!

"Older high powered bullets that contain lead."

What a load of bs.

A public range on West Oahu is a great idea and not something new to discussion, however the timing for the former Barbers Pt location and its transition from the Navy to the C&C is great timing and is the best chance of success in these economic times.  I would also strongly suggest that everyone press Councilman Berg to remove the "environmentally friendly" verbiage from the proposal, I know I will.

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!

Your statements about the Waipahu indoor facility is not correct.  It is in full use every weekday.  However the logic that you mention in regards to the HPD is a good way to impress upon Councilman Berg that there is a legitimate need to remove such verbiage.  In other words the "implied benefit" of frangible or lead free ammo, is not a worthwhile trade off for practical and economic reasons.  No one would even think twice if that wording wasn't there.  Now if he includes it, he puts ideas into peoples heads and then it will be too late.

Quote from: Funtimes on September 23, 2011, 12:33:18 AM

Here is one thing, the police and other agencies will use the range.  They are not going to use non-lead ammo; this is why they can't afford to shoot at their OWN range in Waipahu!

Yep, and it is a known fact that the police and other agencies use our public facilities in any way they please, not following any of the stringent rules the general public must adhere to.

I am going to try to contact Berg today and solicit an answer.  I let everyone know what his comments are.

I am not sure why there is any negativity towards the HPD usage of the City and County Koko Head facility?  They are following "best practice" principles that any major metro PD would follow for range use and LE training.  In reality the HPD training exceeds most others standards in how a facility is utilized by a LE agency.  The City must provide training and are mandated by the courts to provide varying types of training and again Koko Head is City owned.  I would love to see public facilities that would allow more options for the general shooting community, but being negative toward the HPD for doing what they are supposed to be doing seems a bit misguided to me.  It also seems to be overlooked that there are many within the HPD that are supportive of the issues discussed on this site.  However quickly reading threads around here does little to get the support of those individuals who might actually make great proponents in favor of these issues.   

Got a response from Berg as to the concerns about the ammo.

I am amending the reso with a CD1 version to strike/remove that friendly environmental language...MAHALO
Tom

Cool. That's good news.

He also posted this to facebook:

Hawaii News Now filmed myself and others at the OLD firing range in Kalaeloa today- watch today on the TV news- spread the word...thanks.

I am not sure why there is any negativity towards the HPD usage of the City and County Koko Head facility?  They are following "best practice" principles that any major metro PD would follow for range use and LE training.  In reality the HPD training exceeds most others standards in how a facility is utilized by a LE agency.  The City must provide training and are mandated by the courts to provide varying types of training and again Koko Head is City owned.  I would love to see public facilities that would allow more options for the general shooting community, but being negative toward the HPD for doing what they are supposed to be doing seems a bit misguided to me.  It also seems to be overlooked that there are many within the HPD that are supportive of the issues discussed on this site.  However quickly reading threads around here does little to get the support of those individuals who might actually make great proponents in favor of these issues.   

You got me wrong.  The negativity is not with the HPD. I wish they would practice more, if they could. 

The real issue is I am so irritated at the double standards with the rules and regs imposed by the city and state when it involves firearms and the general public, treating the law abiding citizen as some kind of infantile child unable to responsibly practice the art of self defense with a firearm.  I mean they will reprimand you for putting up a human silhouette target, I mean come on now.

You got me wrong.  The negativity is not with the HPD. I wish they would practice more, if they could. 

The real issue is I am so irritated at the double standards with the rules and regs imposed by the city and state when it involves firearms and the general public, treating the law abiding citizen as some kind of infantile child unable to responsibly practice the art of self defense with a firearm.  I mean they will reprimand you for putting up a human silhouette target, I mean come on now.

[/quote]

The C&C ROs treat HPD with the same rules and distain. Police Officers may not carry holstered weapons unless on duty at Koko Head public pistol range. They are not allowed to draw and shoot from the holster or use human silhouette targets at  the public range unless it is a specific HPD training event or sanctioned competition. The same impolite people that yell at the general public yell at badged officers also.

I have to agree with Techi and Heavies. It is not a distain for HPD. It is for a system that allows officers with a viable venue to shoot to use the only available public range to the detriment of the public's use of said range. If the range at the academy isn't sufficient to meet the needs of the police, then that is their administration's fault and the shooting public should not get the short end of the proverbial stick because of poor planning by the police department. A secondary issue is that HPD is allowed to train in a manner that none of the public are allowed to do, such as holster draws, rapid follow up shots, or shooting at something besides that ridiculous 25 yards for handguns. And that does not take into account the ability to use the range during the week when no one else can, even if they try to sign up for it.

And, as someone who frequently uses the range after HPD does, I can tell you that they are not very responsible in cleaning up after themselves....if one of the "clubs" using the action bays were to leave it in such a sorry state, they'd have their privileges yanked.

I don't know what standards you think you are comparing HPD to, but I think your quite wrong Surf.  I've just had close friend go through the Academy, and know about how much "firearms" training they get. With the exception of HRT, standard officers are not required to train enough.  Some who enjoy firearms train on their own, but many times they are out alone at kokohead.  Furthemore, the City, like almost all government agencies including the Marines and the Army, have significantly cut back their firearms training because of money.

All said - the issue is not with HPD, it is with double standards.  Citizens should be allowed to train just like any other law enforcement agency.  We have the same responsibilities when discharging a firearm as they do.  The exception is, when an officer accidentally kills someone in the line of duty nothing happens.  When a citizen accidentally kills someone because of a bad shot, they go to court to face possible criminal and or civil penalties. That is just the reality of civil immunity that many government agents enjoy.

The other problem is that if there are no safety issues with the police department using the range outside of normal public hours, why shouldn't the public be able to use it under the same circumstances.  (I.e., permits etc.)