I totally see GZire's point but if it keeps the range open the already minimal days its open now I'm down to put in some time. If this materializes someone please contact me. 

Quote from: GZire on November 27, 2011, 02:44:53 PM

Quote from: Kingkeoni on November 27, 2011, 12:12:52 PM

Quote from: ren on November 27, 2011, 09:22:14 AM

the side with no benches were repaired by the small bore league. perhaps if we had a community effort to fix the range? Friends of Kokohead SHooting Complex? I'm willing to help start it

Ren, I'm willing to volunteer time to help.

I've got my own tools.

We could call it the 2aHawaii restoration project.

Sorry guys but I'm against it.  This is something that should be handled by the City with our taxes.  As an alternate they might want to charge a nominal fee for shooters to bring the range up to where it should be, more benches, range supplied frames, etc.  Should help to chase the campers off the range as well.

I am with you 110%, in that the city is responsible for the upkeep of the park.  However, If we wait for the city, especially with the current administration, to do anything to upkeep the sorry sight we call KHSC, the place will get shut down due to safety concerns.  Perhaps this is just what they want.   If someone gets hurt from flying debris, falling roofs, collapsing brick walls, and comes down with a lawsuit, they'll have the perfect excuse to shut it all down.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here too...  This State's laws prohibit the public 'Bearing of Arms, therefore, with the range closed, the citizens of this state are unable to exercise their right to bear arms, and this is a blatant infringement on our Second Amendment Rights!

Let me put it to you this way.  Say you put in the roof panels correctly.  Use hurricane ties, etc.  Do you get a permit?  Is a permit required?  What happens when the upkeep sucks and someone gets hurt. Are you willing to be named in a lawsuit?  What if you aren't even responsible and the lawyers start bringing everyone into court........you willing to be part of that lawsuit?

I'm telling you guys I respect what you are trying to do, but to me it's not worth it. 

Remember that guy that fed the wrong ammo into his rifle and it went boom.  Wasn't he or his friend on the lawsuit path?

Sorry guys, but again I respect what you are doing, but I'm out of it.


(If the C&C agrees to name you as additional insureds on their insurance and will help to defend you in the case of any and all lawsuits, then it might be reasonable)

I see tax dollars spent for a private golf course before they spend it on the city & co. shooting range.

Quote from: Heavies on November 27, 2011, 05:17:23 PM

Quote from: GZire on November 27, 2011, 02:44:53 PM

Quote from: Kingkeoni on November 27, 2011, 12:12:52 PM

Quote from: ren on November 27, 2011, 09:22:14 AM

the side with no benches were repaired by the small bore league. perhaps if we had a community effort to fix the range? Friends of Kokohead SHooting Complex? I'm willing to help start it

Ren, I'm willing to volunteer time to help.

I've got my own tools.

We could call it the 2aHawaii restoration project.

Sorry guys but I'm against it.  This is something that should be handled by the City with our taxes.  As an alternate they might want to charge a nominal fee for shooters to bring the range up to where it should be, more benches, range supplied frames, etc.  Should help to chase the campers off the range as well.

I am with you 110%, in that the city is responsible for the upkeep of the park.  However, If we wait for the city, especially with the current administration, to do anything to upkeep the sorry sight we call KHSC, the place will get shut down due to safety concerns.  Perhaps this is just what they want.   If someone gets hurt from flying debris, falling roofs, collapsing brick walls, and comes down with a lawsuit, they'll have the perfect excuse to shut it all down.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here too...  This State's laws prohibit the public 'Bearing of Arms, therefore, with the range closed, the citizens of this state are unable to exercise their right to bear arms, and this is a blatant infringement on our Second Amendment Rights!

Let me put it to you this way.  Say you put in the roof panels correctly.  Use hurricane ties, etc.  Do you get a permit?  Is a permit required?  What happens when the upkeep sucks and someone gets hurt. Are you willing to be named in a lawsuit?  What if you aren't even responsible and the lawyers start bringing everyone into court........you willing to be part of that lawsuit?

I'm telling you guys I respect what you are trying to do, but to me it's not worth it. 

Remember that guy that fed the wrong ammo into his rifle and it went boom.  Wasn't he or his friend on the lawsuit path?

Sorry guys, but again I respect what you are doing, but I'm out of it.


(If the C&C agrees to name you as additional insureds on their insurance and will help to defend you in the case of any and all lawsuits, then it might be reasonable)

Oh well...I have to rethink this. Lawsuits lawsuits. Boo.

Can they prove that it was your tie? Can they prove you put that tie in incorrectly? Can they prove that it was your placing of the tie that was directly responsible for the roof coming off?

You are thinking to far ahead.  Do you really think some people are going to blame a group for trying to help make things look better? I think about lawsuits all the time; I really don't see anything coming of us trying to help fix things.  It is a great idea, in fact, as soon as I can confirm HDF's 501.c3 status I am going to start writing letters.   

*** Please take pictures of broken stuff at Kokohead *** we will try and write a letter to people to see if we can get them to donate $$$ or supplies to us to repair it.

Quote from: GZire on November 28, 2011, 04:30:24 PM

Quote from: Heavies on November 27, 2011, 05:17:23 PM

Quote from: GZire on November 27, 2011, 02:44:53 PM

Quote from: Kingkeoni on November 27, 2011, 12:12:52 PM

Quote from: ren on November 27, 2011, 09:22:14 AM

the side with no benches were repaired by the small bore league. perhaps if we had a community effort to fix the range? Friends of Kokohead SHooting Complex? I'm willing to help start it

Ren, I'm willing to volunteer time to help.

I've got my own tools.

We could call it the 2aHawaii restoration project.

Sorry guys but I'm against it.  This is something that should be handled by the City with our taxes.  As an alternate they might want to charge a nominal fee for shooters to bring the range up to where it should be, more benches, range supplied frames, etc.  Should help to chase the campers off the range as well.

I am with you 110%, in that the city is responsible for the upkeep of the park.  However, If we wait for the city, especially with the current administration, to do anything to upkeep the sorry sight we call KHSC, the place will get shut down due to safety concerns.  Perhaps this is just what they want.   If someone gets hurt from flying debris, falling roofs, collapsing brick walls, and comes down with a lawsuit, they'll have the perfect excuse to shut it all down.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here too...  This State's laws prohibit the public 'Bearing of Arms, therefore, with the range closed, the citizens of this state are unable to exercise their right to bear arms, and this is a blatant infringement on our Second Amendment Rights!

Let me put it to you this way.  Say you put in the roof panels correctly.  Use hurricane ties, etc.  Do you get a permit?  Is a permit required?  What happens when the upkeep sucks and someone gets hurt. Are you willing to be named in a lawsuit?  What if you aren't even responsible and the lawyers start bringing everyone into court........you willing to be part of that lawsuit?

I'm telling you guys I respect what you are trying to do, but to me it's not worth it. 

Remember that guy that fed the wrong ammo into his rifle and it went boom.  Wasn't he or his friend on the lawsuit path?

Sorry guys, but again I respect what you are doing, but I'm out of it.


(If the C&C agrees to name you as additional insureds on their insurance and will help to defend you in the case of any and all lawsuits, then it might be reasonable)

Oh well...I have to rethink this. Lawsuits lawsuits. Boo.

Ren - I'm sorry to be the wet blanket, but being in construction I've heard of so many bad lawsuits to help out in that way.  Kinda like professional medical people who see someone at the mall and not immediately jumping in.

I think if the US wasn't so lawsuit driven we could get so much more accomplished.

Can they prove that it was your tie? Can they prove you put that tie in incorrectly? Can they prove that it was your placing of the tie that was directly responsible for the roof coming off?

You are thinking to far ahead.  Do you really think some people are going to blame a group for trying to help make things look better? I think about lawsuits all the time; I really don't see anything coming of us trying to help fix things.  It is a great idea, in fact, as soon as I can confirm HDF's 501.c3 status I am going to start writing letters.   

*** Please take pictures of broken stuff at Kokohead *** we will try and write a letter to people to see if we can get them to donate $$$ or supplies to us to repair it.

The counsel doesn't have to prove it was you to drag you in.  Once you are in regardless of winning or losing the case you will need to expend money on legal counsel.

I'll share one cut and dried example (out of the tons that I've heard).  1st person account, the guy talking was the person being sued, no second/third hand stories (we'll call him The Boned).  This guy makes lifting slings.  There is a sling failure on the jobsite.  There are three manufacturers of slings on the project.  The Boned slings are colored so they are easily identified from the other manufacturers products.  The failed product was of a different color so it's obviously not his.  The sling that failed was obviously abused and should have been taken out of service immediately but it wasn't.

The Boned's wife says settle the suit.  The Boned says hell no this thing will cost me nearly a million dollars.  Guess what he doesn't settle, he gets sucked into the lawsuit with the other guys, he ends up paying out several million dollars.  To me as a professional it's obviously user abuse and stupidity that caused the failure.  The sling is obviously not The Boned's product, yet he lost big time.


I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I do want you guys to know that there are a lot of shady people out there and you need to watch out for yourself.  Funtimes if you want to go ahead and help out, then so be it, but just be advised that everyone is not as nice as you are.

^^^BTW I have no issue lending my name to a letter to the C&C asking that they upkeep the facility to a proper and safe condition.

While liability is an issue, there's a lot more going on than just that. You've got procurement laws to deal with not to mention labor unions who may have a few choice words for anyone attempting to displace work for their members.

I'M still down!  Let me know.

I'll help.

While liability is an issue, there's a lot more going on than just that. You've got procurement laws to deal with not to mention labor unions who may have a few choice words for anyone attempting to displace work for their members.

I don't think any unions will get mad if anyone volunteers to clean up and work on a public park.

If that were the case they'd be Pickering the adopt a highway people cleaning up the highways.

Well if we really are going to do this, we need to pick a specific thing or area that should be fixed.  (Start small)  Let's see some ideas out there!

Does anyone know any people in the construction industry? Maybe that own their own businesses? Are managers of one etc.

You can also have an organization do it - i.e. HDF. I'm pretty sure at that point the corporation is responsible for the members and everything that is done.  If someone wanted to sue all they really can do is go after the entity who did it.

So is the reange open?

Yep, heading out there now....

Push the safety and well being of the using public and the potential for injury lawsuits due to disrepair and neglect directly related to the Parks Department and they will spend the money to fix what needs fixing, otherwise, the using public will have it on record that the attempt was made to inform them of deficiencies and that they took no action thereby opening themselves up for larger damages being awarded  in future litigation.

Problem solved.

Push the safety and well being of the using public and the potential for injury lawsuits due to disrepair and neglect directly related to the Parks Department and they will spend the money to fix what needs fixing, otherwise, the using public will have it on record that the attempt was made to inform them of deficiencies and that they took no action thereby opening themselves up for larger damages being awarded  in future litigation.

Problem solved.

Or, they close it saying they can't afford to run and maintain it (which apparently has been discussed before).

Quote from: Growler67 on November 30, 2011, 01:47:27 PM

Push the safety and well being of the using public and the potential for injury lawsuits due to disrepair and neglect directly related to the Parks Department and they will spend the money to fix what needs fixing, otherwise, the using public will have it on record that the attempt was made to inform them of deficiencies and that they took no action thereby opening themselves up for larger damages being awarded  in future litigation.

Problem solved.

Or, they close it saying they can't afford to run and maintain it (which apparently has been discussed before).

This being the path of least resistance, and what I gather the state desires anyway.

This being the path of least resistance, and what I gather the state desires anyway.

Now, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the fact that we're talking about a shooting range.  This is the same state that decided to shut down critical offices for one day a month.  We are the very model definition of "penny wise, pound foolish."  Hell, they'd shut down the golf courses if they thought doing so would save them money.