liberals and conservatives: people who enjoy wearing a label and begging big daddy government for handouts

A good friend of mine said once:

"If you want Socialism NOW vote Democrat. If you want Socialism a few years from now vote Republican."

Oh, I'm a little tired of this:



When the true state of affairs is this:



But I guess it's a universal tendency to force things into only two categories, despite reality.

I like the term "leftist statist" because that describes them better.

Thank you, tuor !

Terry, 230RN

Edited to replace bimodal normal curve with single one.

Yup. Spot on, Terry.

Most people, regardless of  political and philosophical self identification, have far more in common than they have divisive differences.

Focusing on those divisive differences, though, makes our current political system function.

People: "What? More taxes and war? Spending on every front? Again? Are we sure this is a good idea?"

Politics: "No!! Abortion! Gay People! Guns! Illegal immigrants!! Freedom and Apple Pie! Our Way of Life^TM is Threatened! We must fight to restore America to Greatness from those Crazy People who are Ruining it! Vote (for me!) now before its too late!!"

That is the essential message from both sides on the Hill. The media, eager for viewers to drive their advertising value up, amplify it, talk about it, analyze it, cry about it, find examples of it and every once in a while when everything else has been exhausted criticize current views about it... but never is it fundamentally challenged.

The cacophony of that "discussion" is so loud that we no longer see our commonality through it. So the other side must be crazy. Much easier to just accept that the Other People are irrational, stupid and too difficult to deal with than it is to actually participate in a democracy.

Divide and conquer at the peak of its evolution.

I think the problems occur when the people at the top of the power structure are too radical, on either side of the aisle.
Most people are center right.
I don't see why, if everyone gets out and votes, barring a bunch of voting fraud, we can get the current radical out of office.
Hopfully the next guy can get everything back into balance, and fix the mess that we are experiencing right now.

I'm more right than center, by the way.

I think the problems occur when the people at the top of the power structure are too radical, on either side of the aisle.
Most people are center right.
I don't see why, if everyone gets out and votes, barring a bunch of voting fraud, we can get the current radical out of office.
Hopfully the next guy can get everything back into balance, and fix the mess that we are experiencing right now.

I'm more right than center, by the way.

The problem that I see from my very limited field of view is that a lot of people view the Republicans as a bunch of radical religious nut jobs. The Democrats do a very good job of convincing the average Joe that this is true. Where I get this from is I have a forum for Hawaii that I own/run and take away those of us that are conservatives/independents/libertarians and what is left is a bunch of people who don't like obama and don't want to vote for him but see the Republicans as a bunch of "radical religious nut jobs". So they are going to vote for Obama as they see him as the less of two evils. Yes I have tried my best to convince them otherwise but they are in the trenches waiting to vote for obama. No matter how much they agree that obama is not good for the country and they may lose their guns and some freedoms, they feel that the radical religious right that supports the Republicans is somehow in control of the party and therefore will push their readical ideas upon them if a Republican comes to office. I kid you not, this is what I deal with on my forum. Frustrating.

The problem that I see from my very limited field of view is that a lot of people view the Republicans as a bunch of radical religious nut jobs. The Democrats do a very good job of convincing the average Joe that this is true. Where I get this from is I have a forum for Hawaii that I own/run and take away those of us that are conservatives/independents/libertarians and what is left is a bunch of people who don't like obama and don't want to vote for him but see the Republicans as a bunch of "radical religious nut jobs". So they are going to vote for Obama as they see him as the less of two evils. Yes I have tried my best to convince them otherwise but they are in the trenches waiting to vote for obama. No matter how much they agree that obama is not good for the country and they may lose their guns and some freedoms, they feel that the radical religious right that supports the Republicans is somehow in control of the party and therefore will push their readical ideas upon them if a Republican comes to office. I kid you not, this is what I deal with on my forum. Frustrating.

That's funny, because like I've always said "People of Hawaii are really religious and conservative people." they just don't see it. Here it's been always "democrat good, republican bad." and you will never change there minds. I'm just glad my dad is a Reagan republican. Oh by the way I'm nether I'll go up the middle.

... the current radical out of office.
Hopfully the next guy can get everything back into balance, and fix the mess that we are experiencing right now

Obama is hardly radical. On some things he leans out to the far left but his behavior for the most part is center left more than it is extreme left. Basically everyone accuses him of "appeasement:" the conservatives say he "appeases" the Evil Terrorists too much and the liberals say he "appeases" the conservatives too much.

There is no President that can fix the mess that we are experiencing now. The mess has been decades in the making, not just since Barry got into office. It has very little to do with the presidency. You can put Blue Shit or Red Shit in the oval office and the only thing that changes is the sheen on the stink. What flavor Democracy Ice Cream^TM you want: Vanilla or Chocolate? Does it have to be Ice Cream? Yes. Any other flavors? No. But that's not democracy! Nonsense, of course it is - now are you going to vote or not?

That's one of the reasons I love Ron Paul and The Judge. They are pretty much saying "What the hell are we doing?!" in such a way that puts the blame, if anywhere, on US. Not the Democrats, not the Republicans... all of us. Its our constitution, its our country: how's this current use of it working for us?

Balance is a good goal. It works about the best it can that way. That's, again, not just about the President. That's about House and Senate and the rhetoric the parties are willing to force on us to wrangle seats out of us.  If we want reasonable and balanced on The Hill we're going to have to put it there... and it helps if we behave that way ourselves. As individuals, family members, coworkers and community members we generally do - it just when we come to politics that we retreat to our respective Vanilla and Chocolate corners.

To me he is very radical.  How about his war on our Constitution, his war on Christians and Jews, his war on the American economy, his war on the American middle class, his war on guns, his war on personal freedom?

Is he different from many other politicians? probably not, but a person that is more aligned to America's core values is a better choice IMO.

To me he is very radical.  How about his war on our Constitution, his war on Christians and Jews, his war on the American economy, his war on the American middle class, his war on guns, his war on personal freedom?

Is he different from many other politicians? probably not, but a person that is more aligned to America's core values is a better choice IMO.

Well put.

His War on the Constitution? You mean that one that began shortly after it was ratified?

His war on the economy? The one that most recently started during the Bush Administration with the subprime lending crisis? Or were you referring to the past several presidencies where the foundation for it was laid?

His war on the American Middle class that got its game on under Nixon?

His war on personal freedom that got its recent headwind with the Patriot Act? Or were you thinking about the Japanese internment, during WWII, the battles over segregation after WWII or perhaps the era of McCarthyism? Oh, you mean that NDAA that was passed overwhelmingly by both the parties in congress that Obama is, thus, clearly to blame for?

What war on Christians and Jews? Perhaps you are referring to the separation of Church and State and the ongoing arguments about how it should and should not be applied? Where in America is it that Jews and Christians are being prevented from practicing their faith and values? Except, of course, where they are simply being prevented from forcing their values on others who don't share them?

I would wholeheartedly agree that we need a President that better reflects "America's Values" if only there was such a thing as "American Values." There is no ONE such set of values. America is full of different perspectives, religions and values so there is no way the Presidency can reflect all of them. Obama does reflect at least some of America's values.... just not yours. That's how life is in the Republic.

Barry is the most recent installment in all these wars and certainly hasn't been freedom's Knight in Shining Armor... but calling them "his" wars seems a little short sighted to me.

First off it was dudd and frank that started the whole subprime thing and threatened the banks to lend to people that couldn't afford these loans.

Not to long ago Berry had the balls to send his minions to the Supreme court to try to get them to have the churches, and synagogs go through them to appoint rabies and preset to positions in synagogs and churches. Even his own appointee in the supreme court (Kegeen) literally told him, (not in so many word) your nuts you can't do that. Alito walked out shaking his head.

If your willing to give this man a second term, a lame duck second term then you can kiss our constitution good bye.

The only way that will work and it like Chris said is to get control of the senate and congress.

Giving mortgages to those on welfare and with bad credit was promoted in a crazy attempt to buy votes from liberal constituents. Zero down mortgages made to these high risk individuals made the situation even worse. Giving the people more bread and circus seems to be the liberal methodology. We do not need more of this. I wish more people would take a serious look at the economies of many European countries like Spain, Italy, and Greece. We could be next.

Not disagreeing in general, just disagreeing that this is a thing of liberalism.

Frank started the recent iteration, yes. The pattern of economic boom and bust goes back into black and white Jimmy Stewart movie territory, though. You don't see a pattern of semi-regular "buy low, wait, sell high" opportunities since the Great Depression? I do. For those that can afford ride out the waves. That pattern has nothing to do with the President, liberal or conservative, and has more to do with the decline of the middle class (which cannot afford to ride out those waves) and income inequality than any other single factor. It is the mechanism by which the wealth of the middle class is transferred to the upper class. Politicians are not directly responsible for this but they ~love~ blaming their opponents for it in order to get votes.

All I'm sayin' is that on most of these issues Romney (or Santorum, and probably even Paul) isn't going to look that much different. He'll ~feel~ better to his base but not much of substance is going to shift. Not in the larger picture of what drives the madness in D.C.

We peons are encouraged to fight over ideology in order to funnel our votes into a very limited set of choices. But it is money and not ideology that drives the machinery in D.C. Follow the ideology and everything looks crazy. Follow the money and it makes a lot more sense.

Anyone who tells you differently is likely trying to "earn" your vote.

His war on the constitution in that he has/is trying to bypass it without due process as we know it. 

His war on the economy in that he has spent(wasted) more of are tax payer dollars than anyone in the history of the country. I never said previous POTUS has done better. However, this guy has done far, far, worse. To the point at which I am unsure if we will ever be able to recover. If he goes another four, I'd wager not.  This is his economy not Bush's.  His regime has been running it for three years. Imagine how screwed we would be if the house was controlled by his party.

His war on the middle class as in he has been screwing us for the past three years with his failed policies. While promoting class warfare, and hypocritically rubbing elbows with millionaires and billionars. Giving loans to companies that were known not to be able to succeed. Encouraging the rising cost of gas and oil with his opposition to pipelines and offshore drilling.  I mean how the hell are we supposed to get to work? Buy a 'green' car? That shit cost more than a normal car, and will last half as long, maintenece on that bad boy is rediculous.

His war on personal freedom in that our freedoms are being steadily eroded by his policies economic and social. Again you stated past wrongs of other administrations. And I did not defend or mention any of them, I'm talking Obama, not previous. I did say that in my original reply that other politicians are turds as well. You assumed I ment only one side of the aisle.

His war on religion. Where in America you ask? How about New York, where churches have been booted from renting public schools on the weekend to practice their religion. There is no classes going on on the weekend, no students unless they are willingly there. How does that have anything to do with seperation of church and state.   The meaning of this is that there shall be no government mandated religion. I does not mean that he/they/whomever can use it as a convenient excuse to bar religious freedom. I concede that the man has nothing personally to do with this issue, but I do believe that he has not made any efforts to put the mayor of NY in line. I would wonder, if this were a muslim church, would he step in??
I have never seen a church in America, be it any religion, that forces anything on anyone. Some maybe more irritating than others, but no forcing in my experience.

When I say Values I mean the spirit of Americas values. Hardwork, honesty, integrity, justice, tolerence, freedom  not a welfare state that depends on the government to run all aspects of life, what you can eat, where you may go and how you get there, what kind of religion is politaclly acceptable and which one are not. And he does not seem at all to reflect them. It his way or the highway.

I do believe that the choices are not going to be all that great.  But I do believe that whatever that choice is, it will be better than  choosing Obama.

I do believe that the choices are not going to be all that great.  But I do believe that whatever that choice is, it will be better than  choosing Obama.

Where's the like button.

^^^^^

Fair enough.

As far seeing as I like to be about how our 2 crappy choice system came into being and how ineffective it is in addressing... anything, really....

We still have only 2 crappy choices to make the best of.

The 2 party system is an age old tactic of controlling populations. Divide and conquer. Check out British's Pakistan and India setup.

Americans need to look behind the 2 puppet parties and see whose really screwing up the country.

The 2 party system is an age old tactic of controlling populations. Divide and conquer. Check out British's Pakistan and India setup.

Americans need to look behind the 2 puppet parties and see whose really screwing up the country.

I believe both the parties are screwing things up. I believe that we are headed in one direction towards a socialist government/society with a two party system. With one party we will get there faster. With the other party we will take longer to get to the same destination. But we will still get there. We need a third party more than anything. I am an Independent/Libertarian.

Okay, let the flaming begin!