Students protesting the flag (Read 49273 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2018, 08:27:52 PM »
The last time I checked, there are Native Hawaiians who still exist to today, who are making a claim for the illegal occupation of Hawaii to end as well as the restoration of their political authority from the US, based on the fact due process for the annexation of Hawaii was not valid under US Constitutional Law.

I do not understand why the nature of this claim is so hard to objectively comprehend?

"Some" is not "all."  Again, you cannot correct the mistakes of the past.  Even if you think reparations to those still living is possible, you ignore reality. 

The problem you keep regurgitating, as if repeating it give it more power than the first 10 times, is reversing annexation is not viable.  If it ever happens, the population would rise up to vote to remain a state.  I guarantee it.

Continuing to post as if you're changing minds and righting wrongs is futile.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2018, 08:34:28 PM »
The problem you keep regurgitating, as if repeating it give it more power than the first 10 times, is reversing annexation is not viable.  If it ever happens, the population would rise up to vote to remain a state.  I guarantee it.

What population are you referring to?

Native Hawaiians?  If so, have to you talked a number of Native Hawaiians on this issue?

If you are talking about the general populace who can not trace their ancestors as being citizens of Hawaii prior to the illegal annexation by the US, they essentially have no legal say in this matter based on both US Constitutional and international law.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2018, 08:46:04 PM »
What population are you referring to?

Native Hawaiians?  If so, have to you talked a number of Native Hawaiians on this issue?

If you are talking about the general populace who can not trace their ancestors as being citizens of Hawaii prior to the illegal annexation by the US, they essentially have no legal say in this matter based on both US Constitutional and international law.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle.  Think of all the mixed races in the islands with Filipinos, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, European, etc, etc .... That's a lot of people with Hawaiian blood in them. 

Maybe Ancestry.com can help you figure out who counts as "Hawaiian" and who doesn't.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2018, 08:59:48 PM »
You can't put the genie back in the bottle.  Think of all the mixed races in the islands with Filipinos, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, European, etc, etc .... That's a lot of people with Hawaiian blood in them. 

Maybe Ancestry.com can help you figure out who counts as "Hawaiian" and who doesn't.

People can fake DNA tests, but ancestry.com may be another viable alternative.

However, the prevailing technique to determine who are the descendants from Hawaii before the annexation by the US in 1898 is done through the existing family records found in the Hawaii State archives located at the rear of Iolani Palace.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2018, 09:07:47 PM »
People can fake DNA tests, but ancestry.com may be another viable alternative.

However, the prevailing technique to determine who are the descendants from Hawaii before the annexation by the US in 1898 is done through the existing family records found in the Hawaii State archives located at the rear of Iolani Palace.

So simple.  Why haven't you taken your plan to the legislature and had all this taken care of long ago?  The longer you wait, the less likely it'll ever happen.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #85 on: April 01, 2018, 09:14:58 PM »
So simple.  Why haven't you taken your plan to the legislature and had all this taken care of long ago?  The longer you wait, the less likely it'll ever happen.

Who said no one tried, there have been inquires/complaints by Native Hawaiians submitted to the US Department of State and the International Crimes Tribunal at the Hague.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2018, 09:20:09 PM »
Who said no one tried, there have been inquires/complaints by Native Hawaiians submitted to the US Department of State and the International Crimes Tribunal at the Hague.

I was talking about YOU.  You type for days on here about all the minute details on what needs to happen in thread after thread after thread.

How much effort have YOU given toward actually making it happen?

If the answer is zero, you're illustrating why I said these "discussions" are unproductive.  Repeating the same rhetoric in a 2A forum over and over does nothing.

Shit, or get off the pot.

I'm done here.

MODS .... PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, AS THE OP ASKED SEVERAL TIMES.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2018, 09:25:01 PM »
Who said no one tried, there have been inquires/complaints by Native Hawaiians submitted to the US Department of State and the International Crimes Tribunal at the Hague.
So all those legal authorities ignored, according to you, the "facts"? Surely the Hague is capable of recognizing "facts", aren't they? So the Hague issued a judgment that the U.S. is "illegally occupying" the Hawaiian islands. Good to know. Who is going to enforce that judgment when?

What is your standard for "Native Hawaiian", 1/64th?

Q

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2018, 09:33:17 PM »
There should be a statute of limitations regarding any annexation, colonization, etc.  If the aggrieved party doesn't petition for a hearing within a certain time limit, they resign themselves to accepting the outcome of the situation.

Hawaii became a state over 58 years ago.  A generation is generally defined as about 30 years.  After nearly 2 generations living as US citizens, I believe this entire conversation is unproductive, and in many respects counterproductive.

It's necessary to study history, but one must recognize it's impossible to change history.

So if a foreign government illegally overthrew the state of Hawai'i and/or the nation of America, after 30 years you would accept and be perfectly fine with what transgressed? Find that doubtful.

Kuleana will verify my disdain for the monarchy and kingdom of Hawai'i due to my views on its actions leading up to the overthrow, but that doesn't change the fact that annexation of Hawai'i, in accordance with constitutional law of the United States, was illegal. Regardless of how you think things should be or how you feel it should be, the fact remains that there are laws in place which were blatantly violated by the United States government, in order to secure Hawaii as part of the nation.

What good is a country if it can't follow its own laws?

People on this forum constantly cry about their gun rights getting taken away, so by your logic, after 30 years, they should just move on.

Also,  I challenge anyone on this forum saying that "Hawaiians should have fought for their country" to provide evidence of what they have done to prevent the usurpation of their 2nd amendment rights, let alone other constitutional rights. Last i checked, all of you did nothing but sign some petitions and grumble about yourselves, talking about what you would do, what you're going to do, how things should be, etc; no different than what Hawaiians who recognize the illegality of statehood have done and continue to do. Seems to be a bunch of pots calling the kettle black, failing to recognize their hypocrisy.

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2018, 09:33:57 PM »
MODS .... PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, AS THE OP ASKED SEVERAL TIMES.

This thread has become a great medium in the presenting and participating in discourse with respect to the reasons as to why that student lowered the US Flag in favor for the Hawaiian National Flag.  Thanks to this thread, the many issues regarding Hawaii's past that still and will continue to be an issue for Hawaii now and into the future was given an opportunity to be seen to those in this forum who were interested in learning more on this topic.

This is what makes this forum so great.  Regardless of the sensitivity and/or unpopularity of the issue discussed among members, this forum protects free speech.  Love or hate it, the 2nd Amendment has and will always defend the 1st Amendment!

It is saddening though that some members of this forum forget this cherished understanding protected in the US Bill of Rights.

Q

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2018, 09:36:42 PM »
So all those legal authorities ignored, according to you, the "facts"? Surely the Hague is capable of recognizing "facts", aren't they? So the Hague issued a judgment that the U.S. is "illegally occupying" the Hawaiian islands. Good to know. Who is going to enforce that judgment when?

What is your standard for "Native Hawaiian", 1/64th?

In accordance with Kingdom law, all citizens born on Hawaiian soil are considered native Hawaiians, as the term native Hawaiian applied to Hawaiian citizens. You are confusing Hawaiian citizens with the indigenous people of Hawaii, or Kanaka Maoli, which can verified through genetic sequencing.

Rocky

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2018, 09:36:46 PM »
People can fake DNA tests, but ancestry.com may be another viable alternative.
:wacko:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2018, 09:44:27 PM »
This thread has become a great medium in the presenting and participating in discourse with respect to the reasons as to why that student lowered the US Flag in favor for the Hawaiian National Flag.  Thanks to this thread, the many issues regarding Hawaii's past that still and will continue to be an issue for Hawaii now and into the future was given an opportunity to be seen to those in this forum who were interested in learning more on this topic.

This is what makes this forum so great.  Regardless of the sensitivity and/or unpopularity of the issue discussed among members, this forum protects free speech.  Love or hate it, the 2nd Amendment has and will always defend the 1st Amendment!

It is saddening though that some members of this forum forget this cherished understanding protected in the US Bill of Rights.

There are acceptable forum rules on well-moderated sites which prohibit cross-posting.  Repeating the same information in multiple threads is supposed to be accomplished by posting the link to the single full text of the post.

So, if you want to argue for this forum's greatness, maybe start following proper rules?  Finding the links is easy.  Retyping the same arguments and words repeatedly has to be a time-waster for you if you know it's already on here.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2018, 09:49:46 PM »
So simple.  Why haven't you taken your plan to the legislature and had all this taken care of long ago?  The longer you wait, the less likely it'll ever happen.

Just for you.

Hawaiian Kingdom Legal Team Complete
Posted on August 22, 2017

Dr. Keanu Sai recently returned from London after meeting with the Matrix Chambers who has joined his legal team in the international commission of inquiry proceedings stemming from the Larsen v. Hawaiian Kingdom (1999-2001) case held under the auspices of the Permanent Court of Arbitration. Matrix Chambers is one of the leading law firms in the United Kingdom and has represented countries before international courts and tribunals.

These proceedings were initiated on January 19, 2017 by Special Agreement between the Provisional Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom and Lance Paul Larsen. Both Parties agreed to the rules provided under Part III—International Commissions of Inquiry (Articles 9-36) of the 1907 Hague Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes. Once the Commission of Inquiry has been formed they will hold their hearings in the Hawaiian Kingdom. The formation of the Commission is moving forward. According to the Special Agreement,

“The Commission is requested to determine: First, what is the function and role of the Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom in accordance with the basic norm and framework of international humanitarian law; and, Second, what are the duties and obligations of the Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom toward Lance Paul Larsen, and, by extension, toward all Hawaiian subjects domiciled in Hawaiian territory and abroad in accordance with the basic norm and framework of international humanitarian law.”

Dr. Sai heads the Hawaiian Kingdom legal team as Agent, Professor Federico Lenzerini from the University of Siena Law School in Italy is the Deputy-Agent, and Ben Emmerson, QC, from the Matrix Chambers is Counsel. Mr. Emmerson is the former United Nations Special Rapporteur on Counter Terrorism and Human Rights. He was also elected by the United Nations General Assembly as one of the Judges for the International Criminal Court for Rwanda and the International Criminal Court for the former Yugoslavia. His expertise is in international criminal law and served as Special Advisor to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.

The first allegations of war crimes committed in Hawai‘i, being unfair trial, unlawful confinement and pillaging, were made the subject of an arbitral dispute in Lance Larsen vs. Hawaiian Kingdom at the Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA). Oral hearings were held at the PCA on December 7, 8, and 11, 2000. As an intergovernmental organization, the PCA must possess institutional jurisdiction before it can form ad hoc tribunals. The jurisdiction of the PCA is distinguished from the subject-matter jurisdiction of the ad hoc tribunal over the dispute between the parties.

Disputes capable of being accepted under the PCA’s institutional jurisdiction include disputes between: any two or more states; a state and an international organization, such as an agency of the United Nations; two or more international organizations; a state and a private party; and an international organization and a private entity. The PCA accepted the case as a dispute between a state and a private party, and acknowledged the Hawaiian Kingdom as a non-Contracting Power under Article 47 of the 1907 Hague Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes. As stated on the PCA’s website:

“Lance Paul Larsen, a resident of Hawaii, brought a claim against the Hawaiian Kingdom by its Council of Regency (“Hawaiian Kingdom”) on the grounds that the Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom is in continual violation of: (a) its 1849 Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation with the United States of America, as well as the principles of international law laid down in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, 1969 and (b) the principles of international comity, for allowing the unlawful imposition of American municipal laws over the claimant’s person within the territorial jurisdiction of the Hawaiian Kingdom.”

The Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom, as it stood on January 17 1893, was restored in 1995, in situ and not in exile. An acting Council of Regency comprised of four Ministers—Interior, Foreign Affairs, Finance and the Attorney General—was established in accordance with the Hawaiian constitution and the doctrine of necessity to serve in the absence of the executive monarch. By virtue of this process a Provisional Government, comprised of officers de facto, was established. According to U.S. constitutional scholar Thomas Cooley,

“A provisional government is supposed to be a government de facto for the time being; a government that in some emergency is set up to preserve order; to continue the relations of the people it acts for with foreign nations until there shall be time and opportunity for the creation of a permanent government. It is not in general supposed to have authority beyond that of a mere temporary nature resulting from some great necessity, and its authority is limited to the necessity.”

Like other governments formed in exile during foreign occupations, the Hawaiian government did not receive its mandate from the Hawaiian citizenry, but rather by virtue of Hawaiian constitutional law, and therefore represents the Hawaiian state. The Provisional Government is not a new government, but rather a restoration of the Hawaiian Government that existed on January 17, 1893, before it was illegally seized and transformed into an insurgency by the United States. In 2001, Bederman and Hilbert reported in the American Journal of International Law,

“At the center of the PCA proceedings was … that the Hawaiian Kingdom continues to exist and that the Hawaiian Council of Regency (representing the Hawaiian Kingdom) is legally responsible under international law for the protection of Hawaiian subjects, including the claimant. In other words, the Hawaiian Kingdom was legally obligated to protect Larsen from the United States’ ‘unlawful imposition [over him] of [its] municipal laws’ through its political subdivision, the State of Hawaii. As a result of this responsibility, Larsen submitted, the Hawaiian Council of Regency should be liable for any international law violations that the United States had committed against him.”

The Tribunal concluded that it did not possess subject matter jurisdiction in the case because of the indispensible third party rule. The Tribunal explained:

“It follows that the Tribunal cannot determine whether the respondent [the Hawaiian Kingdom] has failed to discharge its obligations towards the claimant [Larsen] without ruling on the legality of the acts of the United States of America. Yet that is precisely what the Monetary Gold principle precludes the Tribunal from doing. As the International Court of Justice explained in the East Timor case, ‘the Court could not rule on the lawfulness of the conduct of a State when its judgment would imply an evaluation of the lawfulness of the conduct of another State which is not a party to the case.’”

The Tribunal, however, acknowledged that the parties to the arbitration could pursue fact-finding. The Tribunal stated, “At one stage of the proceedings the question was raised whether some of the issues which the parties wished to present might not be dealt with by way of a fact-finding process. In addition to its role as a facilitator of international arbitration and conciliation, the Permanent Court of Arbitration has various procedures for fact-finding, both as between States and otherwise.”

The Tribunal noted “that the interstate fact-finding commissions so far held under the auspices of the Permanent Court of Arbitration have not confined themselves to pure questions of fact but have gone on, expressly or by clear implication, to deal with issues of responsibility for those facts.” The Tribunal pointed out that “Part III of each of the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 provide for International Commissions of Inquiry.”

To date, there have only been five international commissions of inquiry held under the auspices of the PCA—the first in 1905, The Dogger Bank Case (Great Britain – Russia), and the last in 1962, Red Crusader’ Incident (Great Britain – Denmark). These commissions of inquiry formed under the 1907 Hague Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes serve in similar fashion to grand juries where they not only inquire into the facts of the case but also assign criminal or civil liability for another court or tribunal to prosecute.

ren

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2018, 09:57:37 PM »
Again took place over a hundred years ago
What about all of us US citizens and generations who have bought homes and raised families here in Hawaii?
Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2018, 10:01:51 PM »
Again took place over a hundred years ago
What about all of us US citizens and generations who have bought homes and raised families here in Hawaii?

Who said anything about kicking anyone out or confiscating lands in an restoration event?  In my view, as I mentioned countless times before, why would any nation kick out property tax payers?

Q

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #96 on: April 01, 2018, 10:11:59 PM »
Again took place over a hundred years ago
What about all of us US citizens and generations who have bought homes and raised families here in Hawaii?

What about all the immigrants who came to the US illegally,  have been here for decades, have raised children and bought homes? Since it took place a long time ago, you should accept it, just as you feel Hawaiians should get over it because it took place a hundred years ago.

By principle, if you are against illegal immigrants being in the US, then you should support the repatriation of American citizens back to their country, assuming that the nation of Hawaii would refuse to grant them citizenship and let them and their families stay.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2018, 10:13:51 PM »
Who said anything about kicking anyone out or confiscating lands in an restoration event?  In my view, as I mentioned countless times before, why would any nation kick out property tax payers?

Why would anyone build a $500K raised rail project that serves a small number of commuters (maybe 3-5%) at a final cost of over $3 billion, assuming it's ever completed?  Especially, when that money is desperately needed for infrastructure projects that are going to cost even more in the future.

Asking hypotheticals that are supposed to assume common sense in decision making here isn't going to get the answer you assume it will.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Kuleana

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2018, 10:14:06 PM »
So if a foreign government illegally overthrew the state of Hawai'i and/or the nation of America, after 30 years you would accept and be perfectly fine with what transgressed? Find that doubtful.

Kuleana will verify my disdain for the monarchy and kingdom of Hawai'i due to my views on its actions leading up to the overthrow, but that doesn't change the fact that annexation of Hawai'i, in accordance with constitutional law of the United States, was illegal. Regardless of how you think things should be or how you feel it should be, the fact remains that there are laws in place which were blatantly violated by the United States government, in order to secure Hawaii as part of the nation.

What good is a country if it can't follow its own laws?

People on this forum constantly cry about their gun rights getting taken away, so by your logic, after 30 years, they should just move on.

Also,  I challenge anyone on this forum saying that "Hawaiians should have fought for their country" to provide evidence of what they have done to prevent the usurpation of their 2nd amendment rights, let alone other constitutional rights. Last i checked, all of you did nothing but sign some petitions and grumble about yourselves, talking about what you would do, what you're going to do, how things should be, etc; no different than what Hawaiians who recognize the illegality of statehood have done and continue to do. Seems to be a bunch of pots calling the kettle black, failing to recognize their hypocrisy.

Q raises very important points.

In my post to Inspector earlier in this thread, I acknowledged that my personal views on the restoration of Hawaii are irrelevant.  US Constitutional Law is the law of the US and if there is any violations of that law, it is the US Government's responsibility to correct such violation.  THERE IS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS IN REGARDS TO ANY VIOLATION OF THE US CONSTITUTION.

This is no different as the liberals of the US who have for many years and currently trying to disarm Americans, which not only violates the 2nd Amendment, but are doing so without due process.  Suppose all 50 states create laws banning guns and the federal government does nothing.  Every 2nd Amendment supporter would be up in arms and would rebel until the end of time until they correct the injustice that has occurred.

Such as those who are seeking redress to the illegal annexation of Hawaii.


punaperson

Re: Students protesting the flag
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2018, 10:18:33 PM »
Who said anything about kicking anyone out or confiscating lands in an restoration event? 

Plenty of people have. Some of them may be the ones you have labeled "ignorant racists". Is this another "fact" of yours? I.e. "No one said anything about kicking anyone out or confiscating their property."

In my view, as I mentioned countless times before, why would any nation kick out property tax payers?
Because they are, as you phrased it, "ignorant racists", and that is their primary ideological motivation?