Kavanaugh hearing chaos (Read 194611 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #700 on: October 12, 2018, 09:56:01 AM »
[snippy]

Add to all of that the fact Feinstein did not immediately hand the letter over to the committee chairman.  The complaint could be vetted PRIVATELY before the hearings even started, to see if they warranted more investigation.  Questions related to the claims could have been included in the hours and hours of questionnaires, interviews and hearings Kavanaugh endured.  At no time would the accuser's name have been leaked unless the Democrats did it.

That's exactly how the Anita Hill accusations were handled.  Up until she testified, the FBI investigated, the Senators on the committee read the evidence, and THEN they heard the witness testify.

Ambushing Kavanaugh 3 days before the vote not only betrayed the trust Ford said she had that she could remain anonymous, but it also smacked of a last minute "Hail Mary" to delay the confirmation -- exactly what the Democrats were trying to do the whole time they acted up in the hearings, and by requesting millions of pages of documents they never intended to read.

All of these events combine to give this accusation the "smell" it has, and it's not pleasant.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #701 on: October 12, 2018, 09:59:29 AM »
I'm going to call it now, Trumps next SCOTUS nominee will be accused of a racial/homophobic (if nominee is black, then homophobic will be used. If nominee is gay and black then religist slur will be used) slur.  Zero evidence. But an acquaintance will come forward saying they heard the person using it.  They will not remember where or why they were in ears range of hearing it.  But they heard the nominee say it.

Every BLM/LGBT member will come and protest the nominee.

I don't know.  I think they will have learned to not smear a good person with lies after the midterm Red Wave.

Next time, they will go after Trump to claim his nomination is somehow illegitimate.  Maybe because Trump's mentally unfit, because he Tweeted something partisan about the nomination, or whatever, but it'll be another Trump attack vs. a nominee attack.

I know, Dems never seem to learn, but this smear will be fresh in everyone's minds, and they might not want to dredge up memories of Kavanaugh so soon afterward.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #702 on: October 12, 2018, 10:03:12 AM »


Next time, they will go after Trump to claim his nomination is somehow illegitimate.  Maybe because Trump's mentally unfit, because he Tweeted something partisan about the nomination, or whatever, but it'll be another Trump attack vs. a nominee attack.


They already used that and lost.  So right after Kav got in, they tried to go after his parents estate or something like that about tax loopholes.

They might go after him harder on the fact that his family doesn't have a dog. 

punaperson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #703 on: October 12, 2018, 10:19:50 AM »
That's why I'm hoping the next nominee is Amy Coney Barrett (well, really I want Thomas Hardiman, but for confirmation fiasco purposes I'd like to see Barrett), who is waaaay right of Kavanaugh. I just can't wait to see what all the #BelieveWomen brigade comes up with!





Therefore...

« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 01:17:38 PM by punaperson »

drck1000

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #704 on: October 12, 2018, 10:35:51 AM »
About three weeks till elections. I wonder what’s the next headline to grab attention.

I still see lots of liberal folks on FB still stuck on Kav. I think it’s a good thing. Keeping the rabid dog occupied with chewing on a non-issue.  There have been some rumblings from the Clintons. Can’t they just go away?

macsak

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #705 on: October 12, 2018, 11:31:41 AM »
That's why I'm hoping the next nominee is Amy Coney Barrett (well, really I want Thomas Hardiman, but for confirmation fiasco purposes I'd like to see Barrett), whose is waaaay right of Kavanaugh. I just can't wait to see what all the #BelieveWomen brigade comes up with!


I believe the next nominee will be female
and I cannot wait to see what kind of sh@t "they" are going to try

eyeeatingfish

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #706 on: October 12, 2018, 09:27:24 PM »
Forget it.  EEF is hopelessly in Liberal land.  He's all about facts and sources and links to support claims until it's a sexual assault complaint against Trump's nominee.  Now, all of a sudden, rule of law goes out the window.  Proof, evidence and corroboration aren't needed after 35 years, because "people forget."

Strawman.

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People who suffer a traumatic event might forget insignificant details.  But they don't forget the major things like place, date, time, arriving and leaving.  Ask any rape survivor, and I guarantee they remember where they were, how they got there, and what day it was -- unless they are so drunk or high they can't function.

I have heard numerous accounts the confirm that people do forget details just like that. Often times alcohol is involved but not always. Have you looked at studies about police shootings? Officers regularly are unable to recall significant details accurately and they weren't even intoxicated. So no, the inability to remember things like how she got there or how she got home are not proof that she is lying.

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Here's the bottom line:  credibility means you have to base your belief on something.  To me, if she can't recall major, basic facts of the event, then what else about that day is she forgetting or mis-remembering? Wrong boys?  Wrong interpretation?  Did one of them insult her and she's held a grudge all this time?

I agree, those are all aspects of her story that  bring up valid questions about the accuracy of her story.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #707 on: October 12, 2018, 09:40:11 PM »
Strawman.

I have heard numerous accounts the confirm that people do forget details just like that. Often times alcohol is involved but not always. Have you looked at studies about police shootings? Officers regularly are unable to recall significant details accurately and they weren't even intoxicated. So no, the inability to remember things like how she got there or how she got home are not proof that she is lying.

I agree, those are all aspects of her story that  bring up valid questions about the accuracy of her story.

Police shootings are not sexual assault cases.  Apples and oranges.

I bet the officers know the specific significant details I keep mentioning:  location, date, approximate time and how they got there.

The proof she is lying is in the timing as well as lack of details.  This is not an opinion based on one or two factors.  it's 4 or 5 or more things that are wrong with her allegations.

I don't have to prove she's lying.  All I have to do is look at the evidence to see if it supports her story.

Waiting for evidence .........

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #708 on: October 13, 2018, 10:57:15 AM »
Police shootings are not sexual assault cases.  Apples and oranges.

I bet the officers know the specific significant details I keep mentioning:  location, date, approximate time and how they got there.

The proof she is lying is in the timing as well as lack of details.  This is not an opinion based on one or two factors.  it's 4 or 5 or more things that are wrong with her allegations.

I don't have to prove she's lying.  All I have to do is look at the evidence to see if it supports her story.


No one said police shootings are sexual assault cases. Strawman. The point is that they both involve high stress traumatic incidents which affects what information the brain records and how to record it.

You are wrong, a lack of details is not proof she is lying and the timing is not proof she is lying. The only thing those two things mean is that more questions need to be asked because there are holes in the story that need to be filled.

changemyoil66

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #709 on: October 13, 2018, 11:28:25 AM »
True no proof either way, thats why we have due proccess and "innocent until proven guilty". But you have to admit the liberals/dnc are saying guilty regadless of any facts or lack of facts.

Thats why people are pissed. If this is the new standard then one day it will can be you, your father, brother, uncle, nephew, son, husband, boyfriend, etc...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

eyeeatingfish

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #710 on: October 13, 2018, 11:37:15 AM »
"Reasonable" and "plausible" are not objective terms. You are being subjective in using those.

Yet reasonable is regularly used and recognized in court cases.

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Not one single one of which have been corroborated by anyone, including the people she "factually" named as being witnesses to the alleged assault and at the home where the alleged assault occurred. One of those alleged witnesses was her best friend at the time who has no recollection of any such event and claims to have never met or been in the presence of Kavanaugh.

The alleged witnesses gave neutral statements that neither proved nor disproved her statement.

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Most people that I have read commenting on the lack of memory of many of the surrounding moments of Ford's assertions of fact are not claiming that those failures to remember are proof of a false accusation, but that the failure of memory demonstrates the possibility that the things she claims to remember may not be factual.

This is a valid and reasonable question about the accuracy of her memory.

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Why would someone conclude that her lack of memory of things such as how she got there and how she got home and why her best friend who was there never asked her about why Ford disappeared from the house without saying a word to her or asked her anything about how she got home, etc. is not evidence of possible mistaken memory or intentional lying?

I have driven home a number of drunk friends from high school parties (I never drank) and I don't think they remembered how they got home. That is why I am saying it is reasonable that Ford could remember going to a party but not how she got home. Let me ask you this though, what if Ford did have a memory of who drove her home and how she got to the party, would that do anything to change your mind?

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You're kidding right? No one can "prove a negative". No one can prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. Impossible. No one can prove that any of the events alleged by Ford didn't occur. Impossible. All the people can say who she claims were witnesses to the events are "Yes, I was there" or "No, I was not at such a gathering or witness to any such events, to the best of my recollection". All the people she named, including her best friend at the time said the latter. No one can prove it didn't happen. Only Ford can produce corroborating evidence that it DID happen. Thus far she has not produced a single piece of corroborative evidence.

My point there was that one of the witnesses was an accomplice to the alleged crime so it makes no sense that people are in a rush to cite Judge's lack of memory of such an incident as proof of her mistaken memory. If you were part of a crime you would most likely deny it would you not?

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The "second front door" to her home, which she claimed was the cause of the marital issues that led to her being in therapy (whose notes she won't release to investigators) in 2012 had been installed at least by 2011 at the latest, and was installed based upon a bulding permit taken out in 2007. So five years after the permit is taken out they have to go to marital counseling because they're still having an issue with her need for a second front door due to being groped 30 years previously? There is evidence that the door was installed to allow for an illegal rental within the home. She had claimed that the hearing would have to be delayed because of her fear of flying, yet she traveled on planes frequently. Etc. Etc. Etc. Rachel Mitchell outlined some of the "problems" with Ford's testimony in her summary, which concluded her account was not credible enough to bring charges, or even to get a search warrant, i.e. "probably cause".

The way trauma manifests itself in the brain does not always make logical sense. The whole fear of flying thing is overblown, having a fear doesn't mean one abstains from that thing. The face Ford flies regularly does not prove she is lying about a fear of flying. This is kind of a stretch in my opinion. But like I said, I agree there are some holes in her testimony.

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That's what you consider an "objective" statement of fact? That's a joke. That is pure 100% subjectivity. Here's my subjective take on that: You're a hypocrite.

And why is my opinion that Kavanaugh had a worse hearing any less valid than your opinion that he did better than Ford? Sounds like a double standard.

But I don't just make that up out of thin air, I can explain the reasons why I think Kavanaugh had a poor showing.
-He appeared to be lying about what things like Boof, devil's triangle, etc. meant.
-He came out very angry and maintained that. (I don't consider this proof he is lying, only that his demeanor is not that of what is expected from a SCOTUS judge.
-He snapped back at the senator when questioned about drinking to the point of blacking out
-He spoke a lot about how much he liked to drink beer.
-He admitted to drinking a lot of alcohol in high school, something which he initially denied publicly.
-He mischaracterized what the witnesses stated. There is no excuse for a federal judge to mischaracterize such a thing.
-He claimed he never drank to the point he blacked out which contradicts a speech he made 4 years prior where they had to "piece things together" after a night of too much drinking.

So no, it isn't just subjective, I can back up my opinion with facts. I don't think there is enough to prosecute Kavanaugh for rape however I do think that Kavanaugh's performance at the hearing means he shouldn't be a supreme court justice though. Ford's testimony didn't change my mind, Kavanaugh shot himself in the foot.

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It is probably true that some people believe what they believe independent of evidence, but maybe far fewer than you believe. I believe a very large percentage of people would be swayed by "credible" evidence, just as juries are. The fact is that there is absolutely not one shred of corroborating evidence for the allegations of Ford. There is a lot of evidence that she is mistaken and/or lying about a number of her assertions. That tilts the scale. But the bottom line is NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE.  Plus, the whole thing just smells

When it came to the senate hearing there appeared to be very few who were considered swayable. When I looked at arguments on here and facebook it seemed there were very few who appeared swayable.

You are right, there is no evidence to corroborate her statement about the specific incident. There are corroborating statements about Kavanaugh drinking to excess however that is circumstantial. Keep in mind thought that lots of crimes never have corroborating evidence.

If your point is that Kavanaugh should not be convicted given a lack of evidence I agree. Claiming that the lack of corroborating evidence is proof she lied though is a non sequitur and that is what I am speaking out against. I was not for or against Kavanaugh.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #711 on: October 13, 2018, 11:42:34 AM »
True no proof either way, thats why we have due proccess and "innocent until proven guilty". But you have to admit the liberals/dnc are saying guilty regadless of any facts or lack of facts.

Thats why people are pissed. If this is the new standard then one day it will can be you, your father, brother, uncle, nephew, son, husband, boyfriend, etc...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Agreed. Bill Maher spoke out about this. I can't find the video but he said something to the affect that it is not believe absolutely a victim's statement. About how the left wants to take it as infallible.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #712 on: October 13, 2018, 12:15:41 PM »
No one said police shootings are sexual assault cases. Strawman. The point is that they both involve high stress traumatic incidents which affects what information the brain records and how to record it.

You are wrong, a lack of details is not proof she is lying and the timing is not proof she is lying. The only thing those two things mean is that more questions need to be asked because there are holes in the story that need to be filled.

Only you could claim "straw man" when I point out your straw man argument.    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #713 on: October 13, 2018, 05:19:41 PM »

drck1000

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #714 on: October 25, 2018, 07:35:43 AM »
Grassley sends criminal referral for attorney Michael Avenatti and Kavanaugh accuser

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/grassley-sends-criminal-referral-for-kavanaugh-accuser-julie-swetnick-and-attorney-

 Not quite the backfiring of what I thought could happen with all the calls for more investigation, but interested to see how this goes.

changemyoil66

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #715 on: October 25, 2018, 11:21:23 AM »
Grassley sends criminal referral for attorney Michael Avenatti and Kavanaugh accuser

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/grassley-sends-criminal-referral-for-kavanaugh-accuser-julie-swetnick-and-attorney-

 Not quite the backfiring of what I thought could happen with all the calls for more investigation, but interested to see how this goes.

To bad GoFundMe's aren't taxed.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #716 on: October 25, 2018, 12:47:42 PM »
To bad GoFundMe's aren't taxed.

If they are found guilty of lying about Kavanaugh and the gang rape BS story, GoFundMe would be within their terms of service to go after her for the money raised and return it.  Fraud is prohibited.

It's happened before.  I have to assume GoFundMe demands the money back from the scammers, then follows up with a lawsuit.

Quote
The couple has been banned from the platform for violating "GoFundMe's terms of service,
and all donors will receive a refund," GoFundMe said...

"It's important to remember that our platform is backed by the GoFundMe guarantee, which means
that in the rare case that GoFundMe, law enforcement or a user finds campaigns are misused,
donors are fully protected and will get their money back. Additionally, we are working with law
enforcement on their investigation."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/couple-lied-cancer-child-gofundme-scam-police/story?id=55011676
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #717 on: October 25, 2018, 01:03:50 PM »
If they are found guilty of lying about Kavanaugh and the gang rape BS story, GoFundMe would be within their terms of service to go after her for the money raised and return it.  Fraud is prohibited.

It's happened before.  I have to assume GoFundMe demands the money back from the scammers, then follows up with a lawsuit.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/couple-lied-cancer-child-gofundme-scam-police/story?id=55011676

Let's hope she's dumb enough to admit it to someone via email.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #718 on: October 25, 2018, 01:13:52 PM »
Let's hope she's dumb enough to admit it to someone via email.

She already has admitted it indirectly.  In a recent interview, she backtracked on almost every detail of her story rather than be caught directly telling the exact lies in her original account.

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Snow, who stressed that NBC News has not been able to “independently verify” many of Swetnick’s specific claims, spent much of the interview addressing some of the issues that could affect her credibility, including the fact that she had already graduated from high school at the time of the alleged parties and that she was sued by a former employer for “unwelcome sexual and inappropriate conduct after three weeks on the job.” That lawsuit was subsequently thrown out.

Asked how she remembers meeting Kavanaugh and his friend Mark Judge, Swetnick said they both have “distinctive” faces and that she believes they may have been wearing Georgetown Prep uniforms. As she laid out in her original affidavit, she alleged that she saw Kavanaugh engage in all kinds of predatory behavior at these house parties, including “groping” girls, and she referred to him as a “very aggressive, very sloppy, mean drunk.” While in her prior allegations she said she saw him “spike” drinks, she now said she only saw him hand red Solo cups to girls. “I would not take one of those glasses from Mark Kavanaugh—Brett Kavanaugh, excuse me,” she said.

Quote
Swetnick also asserts that she was raped by several young men at one party but would not say for sure whether Kavanaugh was one of them. “I cannot specifically say that he was one of the ones who assaulted me,” she said. “But before this happened to me, at that party, I saw Brett Kavanaugh there. I saw Mark Judge there. And they were hanging about the area where I started to feel disoriented and where the room was, and where the other boys were hanging out.”

Swetnick also has a history of making false allegations of sexual harassment and misconduct in the workplace when it was SHE who was acting that way.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/julie-swetnick-grilled-about-kavanaugh-gang-rape-in-msnbc-interview
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Kavanaugh hearing chaos
« Reply #719 on: October 26, 2018, 01:09:35 PM »
Creepy Porn Lawyer, now known by the alias CPL, has some 'splaining to do when the DOJ talks to him.  Maybe NBC execs should be called to have a talk as well?

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NBC News is under fire for sitting on information that would have cast serious doubt on wild claims abut now-Supreme Court
Justice Brett Kavanaugh just when the unsubstantiated allegations were rocking the judge's confirmation to the high court.

Controversial attorney Michael Avenatti and client Julie Swetnick claimed last month Kavanaugh took part in high school
gang rapes just as Kavanaugh was defending himself against a separate, uncorroborated claim. Avenatti connected NBC
News with an anonymous woman he claimed could corroborate Swetnick's allegations, but instead accused the lawyer of
"twisting" her words. Still, NBC went with Swetnick's story without disclosing the exculpatory reporting.


On Thursday, nearly three weeks after Kavanaugh's confirmation, NBC News published an article headlined, “New questions
raised about Avenatti claims regarding Kavanaugh,” that detailed "inconsistencies" with Swetnick’s claims. In the article, NBC
News admitted the unidentified woman repudiated the sworn statement Avenatti provided to the Senate Judiciary Committee
on her behalf to corroborate Swetnick's claims.

“Reached by phone independently from Avenatti on Oct. 3, the woman said she only ‘skimmed’ the declaration. After reviewing
the statement, she wrote in a text on Oct. 4 to NBC News: ‘It is incorrect that I saw Brett spike the punch. I didn't see anyone
spike the punch...I was very clear with Michael Avenatti from day one,’” NBC News reporters Kate Snow and Anna Schecter
wrote on Thursday.

"I would not ever allow anyone to be abusive in my presence. Male or female,” the woman told NBC when pressed about
Avenatti and his client’s claims, according to NBC’s report.

NBC’s latest story also noted that Avenatti attempted to “thwart the reporting process” and the woman changed her mind
several times before eventually texting the network a final time.

“I will definitely talk to you again and no longer Avenatti. I do not like that he twisted my words,” she wrote.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/nbc-news-raises-eyebrows-by-sitting-on-info-that-contradicted-michael-avenatti-client


This more than answers why Swetnick appeared in the MSNBC interview alone, unlike Stormy Daniels who always had CPL with her.  Obviously, CPL thinks "representing his client" somehow includes "making up stuff for his client to say."
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw