Thanks for bringing up Japanese internment camps. That's a great example because while at the same time everyone was citing Hitler's concentration camps as a case for war we were running our own, seizing property and businesses and sending US citizens to die in the desert because of their ethic origin. The rest of us either didn't know what was going on, or figured that government knows best so no reason to question the status quo.

Which brings us to the charts below. About the same time Jim Crow laws were ended and the Civil Rights movement was winding down a disturbing new trend in the prison population was just getting underway.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Well for one thing YOUR arguments represent the status quo in Hawaii today, in that one who protects themself will be procecuted for a crime while the criminal will be coddled and provided extensive protection from the law.

I don't see where you got that from. I support the right to carry and use lethal force if necessary, but only when necessary. The most common way that people solve their differences here is by fighting. My concern is that some guy from a flyover state is going to come here for a visit and get into a conflict instead of avoiding it, and end up shooting his way out based on what happened with Kollin and Trayvon.

Just to weigh in on the training requirements, for either obtaining a gun or for a concealed carry permit. The problem is that generally you have government officials completely unfamilar with firearms trying to devise and codify a training requirement. Or, you have individuals in positions of power who philosophically disagree with either and therefore try and create training requirements that are so burdensome that they effectively become restrictions.

Hawaii's training requirement for obrtaining a handgun could have had this effect. Initially the only proposed training that would have been effective would have been that offered by the State. And, since the State did not have, and most likely knew it never would offer, that level of training, it was for all intents and purposes a ban. Even when modified to allow NRA instructors to teach this course, it still presented problems. Such as the fact that initially the training was 3 hours of classroom and 3 hours of range time. When it was changed to the current 4 and 2 scheme, several individuals that had gone thru the prior training were now not eligible to purchase a new gun because their training did not meet the current requirements.

Another example is the LEOSA act. Initially the AG in Hawaii would not create a procedure so our retired LEOs could not continue carrying in Hawaii or in other states. When procedures were set, the training requirements were more than those for active LEOs and the only range to qualify at was on the Big Island and cost $500.00. And, you had to requalify yearly.

I kinda thought it was "bachi" for the LEO community because they enlisted the help of us law abiding citizens to help push the LEOSA act thru Congress, with the agreement that they would then help "us" with getting more concealed carry, but of course they haven't done that, have they? But, it does clearly demonstrate what allowing a generally gun-unfriendly government official/agency to promulgate rules about firearms, will likely do. It is the proverbial slipperly slope. And, that doesn't even begin to argue the case for trying to create training for Constitutionally protected rights. I mean really....you don't have to show an ID to vote but you gotta get training to own/carry a gun? Where is the consistency in the application of the exercise of Constitutional rights?

That's a shame about LEOSA. Never knew that was the case here but always wondered why retired guys didn't carry. Thanks for your reply because now I have a much better understanding why the push is for 'all or nothing' since they have managed to regulate LEOSA out of existence. In my case spending $500 and flying to the BI every year to requalify just isn't worth it either, so I can see why offering concessions could totally backfire on us.

I don't see where you got that from. I support the right to carry and use lethal force if necessary, but only when necessary. The most common way that people solve their differences here is by fighting. My concern is that some guy from a flyover state is going to come here for a visit and get into a conflict instead of avoiding it, and end up shooting his way out based on what happened with Kollin and Trayvon.

Sorry, I gotta call you on the Deedy shooting. FIrst, I know that Deedy was not obviously impaired the night of the shooting. I also know that another individual besides Deedy (not in Kollin's group) was involved and sustained injuries in the melee that preceeded the shooting. So, while I do not have the complete picture of what happened, it certainly isn't as clear cut as the agent got "into a conflict instead of avoiding it, and end[ed] up shooting his way out..."

But I do see the concern you alluded to with the general propensity of some of the "local" population to try and settle everything with a "wat, like beef?" attitude. But I differ in your assessment that armed visitors will just shoot instead of trying to avoid a conflict. Data from states with concealed carry clearly and unequivocally demonstrate that individuals with CCWs are much more unlikely to escalate a situation. After all, why would someone who is responsible, law-abiding, and otherwise committed to not using his firearm unless absolutely necessary disregard those tenents of his personality and personal ethics while on vacation here? We don't seem to have any data that suggests someone from a "flyover" state visiting any of the other 47 mainland states is inclined to this type of behavior, why on earth would visiting Hawaii be any different. It's sort of like the same argument used by law enforcement when they come out against concealed carry...."oh no" they say, "more guns, in public, would just cause more shootings....people would shoot each other over parking stalls and other minor disagreements." This is the general attitude expressed by local LE here, despite that facts and statistics clearly demonstrate that it does not happen. So, unless you think the law-abiding citizens of Hawaii are less capable of controling their emotions then folks from other states, or if you somehow believe that by simply being in Hawaii visitors will suddenly loose all the common sense and restraint they generllay have, I don't see your doomsday scenario playing out as you describe.

On an unrelated note, you seem to infer that you are are LE, retired or otherwise. Is that the case?

Anyone else stop reading this thread after the posts started getting really long?

Anyone else stop reading this thread after the posts started getting really long?

There still posting??

I don't see where you got that from. I support the right to carry and use lethal force if necessary, but only when necessary. The most common way that people solve their differences here is by fighting. My concern is that some guy from a flyover state is going to come here for a visit and get into a conflict instead of avoiding it, and end up shooting his way out based on what happened with Kollin and Trayvon.

"The most common way that people solve their differences here is by fighting."  That, my friend, is a problem for residents of Hawaii to straighten out for themselves.  In no way is fighting an acceptable way for two people to solve their differences. I cannot understand why you continue to act like beating the hell out of someone is perfectly acceptable in Hawaii, and that individuals here who solve their problems with their fists need to be protected from others who don't realize that simply being white in the wrong place will get you in deep trouble.  Further, your previous comments re: "white rabbits" is a pretty strong indication that you are one of these racists who likes to whip a tourist once in a while for sport.  I'm starting to get the impression that you don't support concealed carry for tourists because it would make your recreational activities much more hazardous.

I cannot understand why you continue to act like beating the hell out of someone is perfectly acceptable in Hawaii, and that individuals here who solve their problems with their fists need to be protected from others who don't realize that simply being white in the wrong place will get you in deep trouble.  Further, your previous comments re: "white rabbits" is a pretty strong indication that you are one of these racists who likes to whip a tourist once in a while for sport.  I'm starting to get the impression that you don't support concealed carry for tourists because it would make your recreational activities much more hazardous.

I think you hit on the jist of what I have been reading here and elsewhere:  If you are white, you should lie there and accept your beating, for all the real and imagined things that happened long ago.  Defense is racist.

And from all the race-baiters, I get the feeling they are most alarmed that the open season Holder's people have enjoyed may be coming to an end, and steps must be taken to protect their sport.

Until now, decided not to participate in this or the Trayvon thread after reading the intense bigotry::

"Florida is a backwards racist-ass state run by a bunch of corrupt neo-nazi politicos and half of the cops pigs are actively involved in the KKK. "

The irony of how similar this state is escapes some I suppose.  Replace neo-nazi with socialit/communist and actively involved with the KKK to refuse to investigate if there is a chance family is involved.

In my case spending $500 and flying to the BI every year to requalify just isn't worth it either, so I can see why offering concessions could totally backfire on us.

This explains so much of your mentality, it really does.  Beating on someone constitutes assault, use any weapon, and we have reached the level of deadly force being authorized.

Beating on someone constitutes assault, use any weapon, and we have reached the level of deadly force being authorized.

Deadly force can be reasonable even in the absence of deadly weapons. Thats why the prosecutors office chose not to press charges against the man in Waikiki who stabbed to people (one died) when they stole his backpack and ended up beating him up when he tried to get it back. There are a lot of factors that go into justifying deadly force.

There still posting??

 

I lived in some of those flyover states for a while and am well-aware of the mentality of open racism and discrimination play in every day life over there. The thought of some people that I encountered in my travels coming over here with a gun and walking into a bar full of drunken Micronesians makes my skin crawl.

No I'm not a cop, and no I don't think fighting is the best way to solve differences but two guys beefing is a lot different than a beat-down/robbery. I stay aware when I'm in an area of potential trouble brewing and if someone wants to beef with me I'm always friendly and find a way to make friends or leave, but carry multi-purpose tools just in case and have rarely been forced to use them for self defense purposes thank goodness. If I was granted a ccw I would carry after what I felt was sufficient training.

No I'm not racist because it's silly to believe that nearly identical genetic structures make enough difference to qualify people as being of a separate 'race'. I do respect the cultural differences of wherever I am and if people in a certain place like to fight then as long as it doesn't affect me or other unwilling/innocent people who do not wish to participate then who am I to tell them how to live?

http://news.yahoo.com/why-couldnt-marissa-alexander-stand-her-ground-florida-162546331.html

 

I lived in some of those flyover states for a while and am well-aware of the mentality of open racism and discrimination play in every day life over there. The thought of some people that I encountered in my travels coming over here with a gun and walking into a bar full of drunken Micronesians makes my skin crawl.

No I'm not a cop, and no I don't think fighting is the best way to solve differences but two guys beefing is a lot different than a beat-down/robbery. I stay aware when I'm in an area of potential trouble brewing and if someone wants to beef with me I'm always friendly and find a way to make friends or leave, but carry multi-purpose tools just in case and have rarely been forced to use them for self defense purposes thank goodness. If I was granted a ccw I would carry after what I felt was sufficient training.

No I'm not racist because it's silly to believe that nearly identical genetic structures make enough difference to qualify people as being of a separate 'race'. I do respect the cultural differences of wherever I am and if people in a certain place like to fight then as long as it doesn't affect me or other unwilling/innocent people who do not wish to participate then who am I to tell them how to live?

Goodness, where to begin?  First of all, your characterization of an entire region of the country as open racists is, if not strictly racist in its own right, then cut from exactly the same cloth.  Get real. 

Second, the bolded statement is patently absurd.  Your entire opposition to letting tourists carry firearms here is predicated on the idea that some of these "beefs" (aka "criminal assault and battery) will affect a tourist, who won't know that it's just a little beef.  See also your statement re: " The thought of some people that I encountered in my travels coming over here with a gun and walking into a bar full of drunken Micronesians makes my skin crawl."  Clearly you feel that a drunken Micronesian would start a fight with a tourist.  Either that, or you're again characterizing an entire group, consisting of millions of people, as scumbags who only want to kill brown people.  Tell us again how you're not a racist. 

Sincerely,

White Rabbit

^^^^^^  true.

I/We believe in the protection of myself, my family and "defenseless" individuals from bodily harm.

I/We hope and pray that all legal, law abiding citizens of sound mind and body, and with proper training can one day legally CCW in Hawaii if they choose to do so.

I/We also believe in escallating force for defensive porposes.

Thats all I have to say about that.

I/We believe in the protection of myself, my family and "defenseless" individuals from bodily harm.

I/We hope and pray that all legal, law abiding citizens of sound mind and body, and with proper training can one day legally CCW in Hawaii if they choose to do so.

I/We also believe in escallating force for defensive porposes.

Thats all I have to say about that.

Agreed.

I/We hope and pray

AHHHHH YOU SAID "PRAY" AHHHHHHH LOOK OUT HERE COMES ERIC HOLDER AND THE GOON SQUAD!!!!!!

Goodness, where to begin?  First of all, your characterization of an entire region of the country as open racists is, if not strictly racist in its own right, then cut from exactly the same cloth.  Get real. 

Second, the bolded statement is patently absurd.  Your entire opposition to letting tourists carry firearms here is predicated on the idea that some of these "beefs" (aka "criminal assault and battery) will affect a tourist, who won't know that it's just a little beef.  See also your statement re: " The thought of some people that I encountered in my travels coming over here with a gun and walking into a bar full of drunken Micronesians makes my skin crawl."  Clearly you feel that a drunken Micronesian would start a fight with a tourist.  Either that, or you're again characterizing an entire group, consisting of millions of people, as scumbags who only want to kill brown people.  Tell us again how you're not a racist. 

Sincerely,

White Rabbit

LMAO....To the bolded that's funny!

Regards,

Brown Rabbit

Goodness, where to begin?  First of all, your characterization of an entire region of the country as open racists is, if not strictly racist in its own right, then cut from exactly the same cloth.  Get real. 

Second, the bolded statement is patently absurd.  Your entire opposition to letting tourists carry firearms here is predicated on the idea that some of these "beefs" (aka "criminal assault and battery) will affect a tourist, who won't know that it's just a little beef.  See also your statement re: " The thought of some people that I encountered in my travels coming over here with a gun and walking into a bar full of drunken Micronesians makes my skin crawl."  Clearly you feel that a drunken Micronesian would start a fight with a tourist.  Either that, or you're again characterizing an entire group, consisting of millions of people, as scumbags who only want to kill brown people.  Tell us again how you're not a racist. 

Sincerely,

White Rabbit

LMAO....To the bolded that's funny!

Regards,

Brown Rabbit

You guys are crazy.

Sincerely,
Tan Rabbit