Thoughts on Iran??? (Read 33151 times)

Kuleana

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2020, 10:30:43 AM »
You have an anti-US opinion. You don't want the US here in Hawaii and you've stated that numerous times. There's nothing wrong with that. It's your opinion.

I have an anti-US imperialist opinion in regards to the illegal annexation of Hawaii in 1898 that began with a REGIME CHANGE operation against Queen Liliuokalani made possible by the US marines in 1893.


 :stopjack:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 10:36:03 AM by Kuleana »

ren

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2020, 10:50:42 AM »
I have an anti-US imperialist opinion in regards to the illegal annexation of Hawaii in 1898 that began with a REGIME CHANGE operation against Queen Liliuokalani made possible by the US marines in 1893.


 :stopjack:

I was referring to your statement that people think you have an anti-US opinion in this thread. What ever you label it. Imperialism etc.
You have a disdain for the US and it shows just like how you purposely referred to US Marines in a lower capital tense. But like I said. Its your opinion and some may disagree.

In regards to Iran they instigate a lot of nefarious activities in Iraq. They purposely incite sectarian violence against the Sunnis. I dont hear much about Muqtada al Sadr but he was their go to proxy. Wonder what happened to him?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 10:59:24 AM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2020, 11:01:55 AM »
I was referring to your statement that people think you have an anti-US opinion in this thread. What ever you label it. Imperialism etc.
You have a disdain for the US and it shows just like how you purposely referred to US Marines in a lower capital tense. But like I said. Its your opinion and some may disagree.

My view of US imperialism and what it has resulted for Hawaiians is no different from Iran or any nation that was on the receiving end of it.  As I said in my previous post, Americans would feel and take similar actions to those of Iran, if their country had been previously and is currently facing another take over and having their resources once again exploited by some other imperial power.

ren

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2020, 01:07:41 PM »
My view of US imperialism and what it has resulted for Hawaiians is no different from Iran or any nation that was on the receiving end of it.  As I said in my previous post, Americans would feel and take similar actions to those of Iran, if their country had been previously and is currently facing another take over and having their resources once again exploited by some other imperial power.

The  modern US has no imperialist doctrine. If you dislike historical imperialist countries there are plenty around the world. Dwelling in historical victimhood is akin to not getting over high school ex girlfriends.

The US has no desire to take over Iran. What the US wants is regional stability.

Back to topic, Soleimani wasn't this celebrated Iranian "official". Again, he was the leader of a designated terrorist organization.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/iranian-journalist-reacts-qassem-soleimani-airstrike-death
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 01:50:49 PM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2020, 01:34:10 PM »
Iran sees themselves as the "chosen leaders" of the caliphate. 

Iran is in what was once Persia.  The Persians lost their country through conquest by Arab Muslims.

Historically, the caliphate became, and is expected to become once again, an empire. 

I guess imperialism isn't so bad as long as you're running the empire, huh?


The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2020, 02:51:11 PM »
I am well aware of the containment of communism policy the US had in the aftermath of WWII and do not deny the VALID points you raise from the American point of view.  I was never a fan of the Soviet Union.
I didn’t make my statement to make YOU aware of your not including details that make your version of history different. I made my statement out of consideration to those that may not know the whole truth which changes your interpretation somewhat. I think it is only fair that everyone see how you are interpreting this piece of history knowing all the facts and not just what is convenient to say. That’s all.

However, the fact the US unilaterally made the decision to take away the self-determination of the Iranians, especially when America is supposedly the Protector of the Free World contradicted everything why America fought WWII.  Moreover, the decision to take over Iran in 1953 was based on speculation, as President Mosaddegh was not a communist and America's beliefs that Iran would fall in the Soviet sphere of influence had no real evidence to show.  What we do know was that by installing a US puppet, the US would be able to exploit Iran's oil at a discount favorable to the US and her allies at the UNFORGIVABLE PAIN AND SUFFERING of the Iranians.  This fact can't be denied and, from the Iranian point of view, is undeniably in every way selfishly EVIL.[/b]

Let’s not exaggerate here. As much as you feel the US took over Iran, it is just not true. If the US had taken over Iran would be part of the US like any state or territory. That would be a true definition of taking over a country and Imperialism. But the fact is the US NEVER took over Iran. They may have gone as far as having some influence but taking over? Let’s be real here. Whether you like it or not the Shah made all final decisions. If he took away self-determination it is on him and not the US government. That is just silly.  That statement you made is not just wholly true. My opinion is that the Shah was friendly to the US, and was influenced by the US but the US never made Iran a part of the US. If Iran was a state or territory of the US the coup to remove the Shah would never have happened. Because we would have troops on the ground and put down any coup attempt. The fact is we did very little to stop the coup attempt of the Shah.

So let me ask you a question. How did the US exploit Iran’s oil at a discount favorable to the US? The US didn’t start buying oil from Iran until 1973. TWENTY YEARS LATER! Please don’t make statements you don’t know the facts behind. And I suppose you were there in Iran at that time so you could experience their “UNFORGIVABLE PAIN AN SUFFERING”? I have spoken to numerous Persians and Iranians who were there during that time period and none of them ever mentioned suffering the likes you described. Give me a break. Yes things were bad then, but not as bad as they are now.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't regime change and/or overthrow of a leader of a sovereign nation an act of imperialism?  I think most honest and objective people in this World would think so.  That's why I find it hard to believe how Americans can look at an illegal overthrow conduced by their own country, which deprived liberty from another people can somehow think it is something other than imperialism.

Okay, you want to be corrected? Okay, you are wrong. While the US had a hand in the coup attempt in 1953, they were not the only actors by any means. You make it sound like the US did this single handedly. Don’t exaggerate here. It really was not exactly like you describe. I agree that I would prefer our country not to interfere in other countries affairs. But when our choice is to let the Soviets have influence on Iran, then I agree our interference and HELPING the Shah into power was the right move. Your exaggerations are probably why you keep saying Imperialism. But in fact you are taking events that occurred and are making a molehill into a mountain. Imperialism requires acts from the US government that just DIDN’T occur. Like actually taking over Iran and making them a state or territory.

People in this forum always think I am anti-American anything.  That is far beyond the truth.  I am a pro-Constitutionalist and anti-imperialist.  Hence, in this context with Iran, I am anti-US imperialism.  There are GOOD AMERICANS in the US, but unfortunately its leadership at the turn of the 19th Century has fallen into the reigns or been persuaded into acts of imperialism that was not, as I always state, what the founding fathers intended America to be.  They wanted to be FREE from the British Empire and TRIED to make laws from becoming one.

I don’t think that you are anti-American. I think you are over reacting to most of the events in Iran’s history here. But I guess that is why we don’t agree on most things. Your claims to me are pretty wild here. I’m not saying that you are not entitled to your opinion. Nor and I saying that your idea of events in Iran are even wrong. I’m just saying you and I have different ways of looking at these events.

SADLY, LEADERSHIP OF AMERICA TODAY HAS FAILED THE FOUNDING FATHERS.[/b]

I agree with your statement but not for the same reasons.

I respect your opinion.

As I respect yours.

However, I have to disagree with your assertion that the acts of Iran today against the US and Israel for that matter is mostly their own doing and the US has only partial blame.  You mention Iran exporting terrorism around the World.  How is that any different from what the CIA has been doing since WWII.  I would counter argue that the US via the CIA has and continues to commit more atrocities to more nations than Iran.

After the coup against the Shah and he was removed. Are you saying that Iran’s leaders are justified in their killing of innocents around the world? Because it is their decision and theirs alone to kill innocent people around the world. Whether the CIA was involved in shenanigans with Iran or not, how is NOT the decision of Iran’s leaders to kill innocent people around the world? Forget just the US and Israel. How do you justify Iran supporting terrorism of any type against innocent people, period? And if you decide to take a stab at answering it, I would appreciate an answer, not a question. Even when Obama paid off Iran, they slowed down their acts of terrorism, but never stopped. Maybe you don’t get that it doesn’t really matter what the US does? They are going to be terrorists to advance their agenda if that is what they decide to do. No one is putting a gun to their head and making them do this. It is ALL on them.

Once more, the US has never given up trying to return Iran to the vassal state that it was back in 1953.  Do you remember that the US via Saddam's Iraq's invasion of Iran was a proxy war against Iran during the 1980's?  In addition, as recent in 2009,  American Jeremy Hammond (https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/06/23/has-the-u-s-played-a-role-in-fomenting-unrest-during-irans-election/) has reported how the US tried to meddle in the internal affairs and ferment revolution in Iran.[,quote]

I don’t believe your statement here. We severed ties with Iran. If you are going to say we never stopped then please provide some proof. I don’t agree that the proxy war is the same exact thing as making Iran part of the US. Sorry, in my mind they don’t compute. I’m not disagreeing the events didn’t happen. I just disagree with your premise.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Kuleana

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2020, 08:24:38 PM »
"Let’s not exaggerate here. As much as you feel the US took over Iran, it is just not true. If the US had taken over Iran would be part of the US like any state or territory. That would be a true definition of taking over a country and Imperialism. But the fact is the US NEVER took over Iran. They may have gone as far as having some influence but taking over? Let’s be real here. Whether you like it or not the Shah made all final decisions. If he took away self-determination it is on him and not the US government. That is just silly.  That statement you made is not just wholly true. My opinion is that the Shah was friendly to the US, and was influenced by the US but the US never made Iran a part of the US. If Iran was a state or territory of the US the coup to remove the Shah would never have happened. Because we would have troops on the ground and put down any coup attempt. The fact is we did very little to stop the coup attempt of the Shah."

You are right, as I stand corrected to the question did the US took over Iran directly.  They did not.

The US, however, installed a US puppet, that did America's bidding.  As is reported in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat:

"The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play along. The experience left him with a lifelong awe of American power, and would contribute to his pro-US policies, while generating a hatred of the British."




"So let me ask you a question. How did the US exploit Iran’s oil at a discount favorable to the US? The US didn’t start buying oil from Iran until 1973."

I stand corrected, as they only purchased oil from Iran starting in 1973.



"And I suppose you were there in Iran at that time so you could experience their “UNFORGIVABLE PAIN AN SUFFERING”? I have spoken to numerous Persians and Iranians who were there during that time period and none of them ever mentioned suffering the likes you described."

According to Professor of Political Science Richard Cottam's, Human Rights in Iran Under the Shah (https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1913&context=jil), the only three groups that were recognized as having been satisfied with the leadership of the Shah were the Security Forces, the large corporations, and the public/private technocracy.  Everyone else was not satisfied and were the ones who suffered the worst human rights violations under the Shah.



"Okay, you want to be corrected? Okay, you are wrong. While the US had a hand in the coup attempt in 1953, they were not the only actors by any means. You make it sound like the US did this single handedly. Don’t exaggerate here. It really was not exactly like you describe."

I stand corrected, the Iranian coup in 1953 was a joint imperialist operation by the US (i.e., Operation Ajax) and the British (i.e., Operation Boot).



"I agree that I would prefer our country not to interfere in other countries affairs.  But when our choice is to let the Soviets have influence on Iran, then I agree our interference and HELPING the Shah into power was the right move. Your exaggerations are probably why you keep saying Imperialism. But in fact you are taking events that occurred and are making a molehill into a mountain. Imperialism requires acts from the US government that just DIDN’T occur. Like actually taking over Iran and making them a state or territory."

The whole paranoia of the Soviets taking over Iran was purely speculation, preying on the communist boogieman.  I still can't fathom your position that the US did not act imperialistically in their overthrow of a sovereign government.  The US government has since acknowledged its wrongdoing to Iran back in 1953, yet you classify what happened as something other than imperialism.

With all due RESPECT, how would you describe then, to an Iranian today, America's direct involvement via the CIA in the events in Iran in 1953?




After the coup against the Shah and he was removed. Are you saying that Iran’s leaders are justified in their killing of innocents around the world? Because it is their decision and theirs alone to kill innocent people around the world. Whether the CIA was involved in shenanigans with Iran or not, how is NOT the decision of Iran’s leaders to kill innocent people around the world? Forget just the US and Israel. How do you justify Iran supporting terrorism of any type against innocent people, period? And if you decide to take a stab at answering it, I would appreciate an answer, not a question. Even when Obama paid off Iran, they slowed down their acts of terrorism, but never stopped. Maybe you don’t get that it doesn’t really matter what the US does? They are going to be terrorists to advance their agenda if that is what they decide to do. No one is putting a gun to their head and making them do this. It is ALL on them.

That's the point.  Iran does not care who is on Obama's or the CIA's kill lists, as long as it does not include them.  Hence, why should the US care if Iran wants to fight other Muslim countries?

In the ongoing cat-and-mouse game between the US and Iran, it is the legacy of what happened in 1953 and ongoing support to Iran's enemies that have a lot to do with, I know you describe it as terrorism, but I describe it as Iran's counterinsurgency.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 08:29:56 PM by Kuleana »

Kuleana

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2020, 09:10:57 PM »
"The US has no desire to take over Iran. What the US wants is regional stability."

If that were true Ren, how did the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, invasion of Libya in 2011, and invasion of Syria 2014 all by the US contributed to regional stability?

RSN172

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2020, 05:57:55 AM »
It is all about oil.
Happily living in Puna

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2020, 06:49:23 AM »
The US, however, installed a US puppet, that did America's bidding.  As is reported in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat:

"The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play along. The experience left him with a lifelong awe of American power, and would contribute to his pro-US policies, while generating a hatred of the British."


There is a very fine line between the US having influence on and being a puppet of the US. Too fine, in my opinion to be even discussing. So let’s leave this as we generally agree. I’ll make a suggestion to you as I enjoy respectable conversations. I suggest you try and not use Wikipedia as a source for anything. If it is the only source then it is your decision. The problem with Wikipedia is that they are not unbiased. Both myself and my brother were approved editors and our edits continuously kept getting overwritten by people with a leftist agenda. Then we were both cut off from being approved editors. A lot of what I find on Wikipedia is VERY biased. As such, it can be considered an unreliable source. Again, this is just a suggestion.

According to Professor of Political Science Richard Cottam's, Human Rights in Iran Under the Shah (https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1913&context=jil), the only three groups that were recognized as having been satisfied with the leadership of the Shah were the Security Forces, the large corporations, and the public/private technocracy.  Everyone else was not satisfied and were the ones who suffered the worst human rights violations under the Shah.

I won’t say you are wrong here. I was not there. As I stated before I feel I can only go by first hand knowledge and experience. And the people I know that used to live there during that time described events in a different light. I also won’t say you are right, either. As such, I feel your source is biased as most “professors of political science” have a leftist agenda. I don’t have the time right now to fully research the guy because it is possible he does not have an agenda. Just my personal bias that anything in the title with Political Science is suspect.

The whole paranoia of the Soviets taking over Iran was purely speculation, preying on the communist boogieman.  I still can't fathom your position that the US did not act imperialistically in their overthrow of a sovereign government.  The US government has since acknowledged its wrongdoing to Iran back in 1953, yet you classify what happened as something other than imperialism.

With all due RESPECT, how would you describe then, to an Iranian today, America's direct involvement via the CIA in the events in Iran in 1953?


Thank you. Your view is in hindsight. At the time all of this was going down, that was not the overwhelming thoughts. I can’t say what intelligence we had at the time. Maybe something has been released thru FOIA? I am sorry I don’t have the time to do full research whether some documents exist that support what you are saying is what we really knew at the time. I can only tell you what my memories are and my research tells me and that we found out later it was not as much of a big deal. In other words we over reacted. But again in hindsight.

I probably couldn’t have a conversation with an Iranian today that did not live thru that time. While I an atheist I was born to Jewish parents. So I am considered a Jew by the Jewish people. I do not consider myself this, but half of my family practices some sort of Judaism or another. I have family all over the world including Israel. My family and friends that used to live in Persia/Iran were either killed for being Jewish or got out when they had a chance due to being Jewish. So most Iranian’s today would probably want to kill me. Plus even if they didn’t know, they still would not believe me. Their history has been rewritten in much the same way you have described in our earlier discussions. Radicalization, propaganda. Not being able to have their own thoughts without being taken to jail. How do I try and explain how things went down differently. You can’t. Sad but true. They need to get back access to the Internet and to be put into a free society and they can determine themselves what really happened. That’s all we can do.

That's the point.  Iran does not care who is on Obama's or the CIA's kill lists, as long as it does not include them.  Hence, why should the US care if Iran wants to fight other Muslim countries?

In the ongoing cat-and-mouse game between the US and Iran, it is the legacy of what happened in 1953 and ongoing support to Iran's enemies that have a lot to do with, I know you describe it as terrorism, but I describe it as Iran's counterinsurgency.


My opinion is we should all care if Iran wants to fight other countries. We have allies in the Middle East. We need to actively support and defend them. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Israel are a few that come to mind. Well, I respect your opinion. Counterinsurgency? Terrorism? Proxy wars? Yeah, I don’t like some of the things we did on our side. Some I do. We disagree on words but I think to some extent here we agree on content. Not to the same degree, but to some degree.

SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2020, 08:08:31 AM »
Kuleana,

You said:

I still can't fathom your position that the US did not act imperialistically in their overthrow of a sovereign government.  The US government has since acknowledged its wrongdoing to Iran back in 1953, yet you classify what happened as something other than imperialism.

The overthrow of a country does not Imperialism make. That is because you and I define Imperialism differently. I know most of the definitions I see on the Internet and by a very strict and narrow definition you are correct. But I was taught differently. I think where you and I differ is to the extent to which the US had a part in Iran AFTER the coup which put the Shah in place.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/imperialism

the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.

You see the word “Over” is what I consider when we talk about Iran. I do not believe that we did extend our rule or authority over Iran. Even you agreed we did not take the country over. To me that is what taking over the country means. Extending the rule or authority over another country. I believe we helped put the Shah in place in exchange for a couple of things. I’m simplifying this. He needed to be friendly to us whether public or not. But overall he needed to agree to not nationalize the country’s oil production. These two things provided what I believe the US was after and that was stabile oil prices and a stabile government. They did this for the world’s benefit, not the US’s benefit specifically. And from where I see things that is exactly what we got. Did we have influence on the Shah? Of course. But he was still the final word since we had no troops on the ground there to force the country to do our bidding. If that was the case I would think we would have forced him to treat the citizens better. I am not so sure that we didn’t already know the Shah was going to rule the country the way he did. We probably did know. I am sure we didn’t want that. But sometimes the lesser of 2 evils is our only choice. Think both Bush’s.  :rofl:  An overthrow is an overthrow. If the US had forced control over Iran, then the overthrow would have been a part of the whole action. But we had the overthrow/coup and then we had Iran being run by the Shah. I don’t see us taking over the country which in my mind means we didn’t extend control or authority over Iran. I just don’t see Imperialism here.

I am not saying the US didn’t have any wrongdoing here. They did. They admitted it as they should have. But admitting what they did still in my mind does not Imperialism make. There are some very simplistic definitions out on the Internet that you can post here that would completely support your premise. I won’t deny that. I usually only use dictionary.com and Miriam-Webster. I do this as I find some sights leave out words or add words to change the definition. So I try and stay with sites that can’t be accused of bias in their definitions. I’m not trying to change your mind, just trying to answer your question as to how I can fathom not seeing this as Imperialism.  :shaka:

SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

drck1000

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2020, 08:21:04 AM »
This is a very complicated issue which you are over simplifying which changes history a bit if you do not offer some background information to go along with it. You are leaving out some important details.

SNIP
I admit I am very ignorant (at least compared to you scholars) on the Iran issues and Middle East, but a while back I did try to dig into why there's so much hatred in that region.  Much of it goes back WAY before the US was even an idea of the "imperialists".  It is VERY complicated and much like history of WWII (and most wars) it depends on which perspective you are reading/learning the history from.  I still am very much into WWII history and was recently reading and watching perspectives from other countries, like Poland and of course Germany. 

Context is also very much key and timelines back in the day are VERY hazy as to what was happening when.  There's also a tendency to have the "it's obvious" in hindsight.

Anyways, all interesting stuff.  Especially after my first coffee after being in vacation since 23 Dec.   ;D

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2020, 10:53:28 AM »
...Especially after my first coffee after being in vacation since 23 Dec.   ;D
Enjoy your time off.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

drck1000

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2020, 10:54:35 AM »
Enjoy your time off.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Vacay ended already  :(

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2020, 10:56:30 AM »
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2020, 11:49:32 AM »
I admit I am very ignorant (at least compared to you scholars) on the Iran issues and Middle East, but a while back I did try to dig into why there's so much hatred in that region.  Much of it goes back WAY before the US was even an idea of the "imperialists".  It is VERY complicated and much like history of WWII (and most wars) it depends on which perspective you are reading/learning the history from.  I still am very much into WWII history and was recently reading and watching perspectives from other countries, like Poland and of course Germany. 

Context is also very much key and timelines back in the day are VERY hazy as to what was happening when.  There's also a tendency to have the "it's obvious" in hindsight.

Anyways, all interesting stuff.  Especially after my first coffee after being in vacation since 23 Dec.   ;D
While the prejudice against Jews has existed since as far back as some of human history, I feel, a lot of what we are experiencing here between the US and Iran has what had to do with the Nazis spreading the hate before and during WWII. Iran's leadership hates Jews and the Jewish state. And since we support and defend Israel, the hatred is toward us as well. The hatred is off the chart. But it was started (in writing) back in the 1930's and is alive and well today.

Here is an interesting article on the history of the hatred that was spread throughout the middle east:

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/islamic-antisemitism-how-it-originated-and-spread

BTW, a good number of historians regarding WWII history are from Germany.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

drck1000

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2020, 12:00:18 PM »
1) While the prejudice against Jews has existed since as far back as some of human history, I feel, a lot of what we are experiencing here between the US and Iran has what had to do with the Nazis spreading the hate before and during WWII. Iran's leadership hates Jews and the Jewish state. And since we support and defend Israel, the hatred is toward us as well. The hatred is off the chart. But it was started (in writing) back in the 1930's and is alive and well today.

Here is an interesting article on the history of the hatred that was spread throughout the middle east:

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/islamic-antisemitism-how-it-originated-and-spread

2) BTW, a good number of historians regarding WWII history are from Germany.
1) What I noticed from what I've researched so far.  Also interesting is the numerous and frankly wild hypocrisy of the Nazis (master race et al) as well as the propaganda.  They were apparently amazing at it.  I've said it many times, there are many parallels I see to what happened then to what I see going on now, just different method of conveying the messages, but just as dangerous.  Especially when social media is lit up by the likes of Ms. Time Woman of the Year.  :facepalm: 

2) I've also noticed that too.  A bunch of shows on AHC has many German historians.  Their accents are interesting. . .  ;D

As a side note, I've been getting caught up in the Marvel movie series.  Damn Nazi's are all over the place there.  Hail Hydra! 

Inspector

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2020, 12:10:40 PM »
1) What I noticed from what I've researched so far.  Also interesting is the numerous and frankly wild hypocrisy of the Nazis (master race et al) as well as the propaganda.  They were apparently amazing at it.  I've said it many times, there are many parallels I see to what happened then to what I see going on now, just different method of conveying the messages, but just as dangerous.  Especially when social media is lit up by the likes of Ms. Time Woman of the Year.  :facepalm: 

2) I've also noticed that too.  A bunch of shows on AHC has many German historians.  Their accents are interesting. . .  ;D

As a side note, I've been getting caught up in the Marvel movie series.  Damn Nazi's are all over the place there.  Hail Hydra!
The thing that scares me is how the racism is spreading in NYC. Here is an interesting 3-4 minute video:



Notice all the stereotypes? Something is fueling this.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

changemyoil66

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2020, 12:30:48 PM »
1) What I noticed from what I've researched so far.  Also interesting is the numerous and frankly wild hypocrisy of the Nazis (master race et al) as well as the propaganda.  They were apparently amazing at it.  I've said it many times, there are many parallels I see to what happened then to what I see going on now, just different method of conveying the messages, but just as dangerous.  Especially when social media is lit up by the likes of Ms. Time Woman of the Year.  :facepalm: 

2) I've also noticed that too.  A bunch of shows on AHC has many German historians.  Their accents are interesting. . .  ;D

As a side note, I've been getting caught up in the Marvel movie series.  Damn Nazi's are all over the place there.  Hail Hydra!

I've watched Hitlers speeches in history class in high school.  I have no idea what he's saying, but was entertained by his speeches.  So I can see how charismatic he was to the German people. I find it odd how someone who is not blonde hair and blue eyed was leading the Aryan purity stuff.  Didn't know until recently that the lead singer of ABBA was a product of the Lebensborn program. Was on Netflix.

Hydra looks down on the Nazi's.  #focus

drck1000

Re: Thoughts on Iran???
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2020, 01:04:33 PM »
The thing that scares me is how the racism is spreading in NYC. Here is an interesting 3-4 minute video:



Notice all the stereotypes? Something is fueling this.
Wow!  While I'm not surprised, wow. 

That guy at around 3:00 though.  Need more like him. 

Stereotypes, parallels, more.  I could go on, but not appropriate for open forum.  Best over beers. . .  ;D

"We don't have nuffin" :facepalm:  but I digress. . .