So, now you're splitting hairs.

It's a binary decision:  break the law and risk getting caught, or obey the law and have zero risk.

Given the number of people caught with illegal guns, and deducing there are probably many more than that who haven't been caught, it's my opinion that getting caught was not high on their list of considerations.

Binary? Now you are oversimplifying, as if there is no difference in risk levels by methods involved.

Binary? Now you are oversimplifying, as if there is no difference in risk levels by methods involved.

You give criminals much more credit for making logical decisions than they deserve.

#Academic
#AlternateReality

You give criminals much more credit for making logical decisions than they deserve.

#Academic
#AlternateReality

Depends on the criminal I suppose. A chronic itching for his next quick fix probably isn't going to be as careful.

Perhaps an arms dealer who needs to be smarter would be more concerned about getting caught and more likely to go with P80s. I am interested to see what data comes out on this in a few years

People who speculate on how firearms work and manufactured shouldn't be arguing for more laws.

Let's make a law and then figure out in 5 or 10 years if we actually needed it or not

People who speculate on how firearms work and manufactured shouldn't be arguing for more laws.

Anyone who isn't a chemist or doctor shouldn't argue for drug laws then?

Anyone who isn't a chemist or doctor shouldn't argue for drug laws then?

If you want to argue just for the sake of arguing knock yourself out. Two different issues here.



I wouldn't trust a person who makes just 1911 grips do a slide to frame fit or barrel fit on my 1911.
 You don't know what it takes to make anything out of the methods you mentioned: additive or CNC machining.

Anyone who isn't a chemist or doctor shouldn't argue for drug laws then?

What if they arent the 2, but have experience?

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If you want to argue just for the sake of arguing knock yourself out. Two different issues here.

I wouldn't trust a person who makes just 1911 grips do a slide to frame fit or barrel fit on my 1911.
 You don't know what it takes to make anything out of the methods you mentioned: additive or CNC machining.

The point was that you are making a non sequitur argument. Someone doesn't need to understand how a CNC milling machine or a 3d printer work to understand that these tools can be used to make firearm parts. With such a high standard laws could never be passed because no legislators are experts in every area. Now if a legislator wants to outlaw a certain part of a firearm they should know enough about the part to justify why it should be illegal of course but they don't have to be a firearms expert to understand that 3D printing technology creates an additional means by which someone could manufacture a firearm.


I know enough to complete a P80 and assemble a functioning firearm with parts. I don't currently know how to use a CNC milling machine but I am resourceful enough to learn if I decided I wanted to make firearm parts with one. I know the capabilities of the machines though

The point was that you are making a non sequitur argument. Someone doesn't need to understand how a CNC milling machine or a 3d printer work to understand that these tools can be used to make firearm parts. With such a high standard laws could never be passed because no legislators are experts in every area. Now if a legislator wants to outlaw a certain part of a firearm they should know enough about the part to justify why it should be illegal of course but they don't have to be a firearms expert to understand that 3D printing technology creates an additional means by which someone could manufacture a firearm.


I know enough to complete a P80 and assemble a functioning firearm with parts. I don't currently know how to use a CNC milling machine but I am resourceful enough to learn if I decided I wanted to make firearm parts with one. I know the capabilities of the machines though

I dont know how to make a p80. Nor resourcefull or wealthy enough to operate/own a CNC.



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legislators who knew little but had a lot of speculation (aka imagination) gave us the 1994 "assault weapons" ban.

legislators who knew little but had a lot of speculation (aka imagination) gave us the 1994 "assault weapons" ban.

We testify and point out flaws in bills. But many fall on dead ears, as they have made up their minds prior to. Example taser law about sellers needing permits and background checks by HPD. Which checks have been waived because they don't know how to do them since the FBI told them they cannot use their federal check system.

I dont know how to make a p80. Nor resourcefull or wealthy enough to operate/own a CNC.



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You could definitely figure out how to make one if you wanted, especially since they have guide blocks which basically show you exactly where to drill.

I was thinking about this further, people have been arguing that a stolen black market gun is going to be cheaper and criminals are just going to go for the cheaper option, but if that were really the case then we would expect not to see P80s involved in crimes. However this isn't the case and P80 guns have turned up in a number of crimes even here in Hawaii. So clearly at least some criminals have no problems paying more for a P80 over some stolen black market gun.

You could definitely figure out how to make one if you wanted, especially since they have guide blocks which basically show you exactly where to drill.

I was thinking about this further, people have been arguing that a stolen black market gun is going to be cheaper and criminals are just going to go for the cheaper option, but if that were really the case then we would expect not to see P80s involved in crimes. However this isn't the case and P80 guns have turned up in a number of crimes even here in Hawaii. So clearly at least some criminals have no problems paying more for a P80 over some stolen black market gun.

And if a felon wanted to make a gun out of a block of polymir or aluminum, they could to. In circles we go.

Please post the stats of guns used by types below

P80 type
No serial # or altered serial # (OG ghost gun definition)
Stolen factory

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And if a felon wanted to make a gun out of a block of polymir or aluminum, they could to. In circles we go.

Please post the stats of guns used by types below

P80 type
No serial # or altered serial # (OG ghost gun definition)
Stolen factory

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I don't know if such data has been widely gathered yet, I only know that they have turned up a number of times.
I would be curious to see what percentage they represent and how that changes over the next decade or so.

So without knowing the % of all 3, just because p80s turned up is reason?

Of course a new way of creating something will turn up more that what it was prior (zero).

100 p80s could turn up, but if 800 stolen factory  guns did, then its not really an issue is it?

What ifs can go in circles and start from square 1.

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The P80s I read about were built and sold by someone other than the person arrested with them.

So, no.  Most crooks are not paying more to make guns than a stolen gun costs.  The people doing the builds already have the machines.

Of course a new way of creating something will turn up more that what it was prior (zero).

That was my basic position the whole time. An additional method of obtaining a firearm makes it easier to obtain a firearm.

People here seem to want to defend P80s and 3D printing so much that they don't want to admit it makes it easier to obtain firearms. I can defend p80s while still admitting their downsides.

That was my basic position the whole time. An additional method of obtaining a firearm makes it easier to obtain a firearm.

People here seem to want to defend P80s and 3D printing so much that they don't want to admit it makes it easier to obtain firearms. I can defend p80s while still admitting their downsides.

Easy isnt the right word. Like i said, i cannot make 1 reliably. Neither could the guy on vice and that was with an expert next to him guiding. Took 6 hrs and still wouldnt fire 2 rounds in a row (semi auto).

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Easy isnt the right word. Like i said, i cannot make 1 reliably. Neither could the guy on vice and that was with an expert next to him guiding. Took 6 hrs and still wouldnt fire 2 rounds in a row (semi auto).

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Didn't say easy, I said easier and I didn't talk about the manufacture and assembly process I was talking about the obtaining process.