Police work is harder than the military in some ways.

Military you have a team or squad with you.  You might be able to retreat.

Police, you're on your own until backup arrives.  And you may not have the option of retreating.

HPD is short staffed and it wouldn't take that many officers with medical disabilities to reduce their effectiveness to the point where our neighborhoods will either have to hire private security or form citizens patrols.

Most of us know how to shoot more or less, but trying to untie the knots of domestic violence and manage the criminal underworld is a whole other ball of wax.

Police work is harder than the military in some ways.

Military you have a team or squad with you.  You might be able to retreat.

Police, you're on your own until backup arrives.  And you may not have the option of retreating.

While the job itself might have more challenges, we are talking specifically about training.

Unless it's HPD's goal to give recruits heat stroke because it's more realistic with regards to actual police duty, there should be better control over the physical illnesses that can arise in training.  It's much more difficult to train someone who had to go to the hospital to be treated for a preventable problem like heat stroke.

This is Hawaii, after all. Not exactly a shock that people can exceed a safe body temp with moderate physical exertion.  If they want to develop a tolerance to the temperatures here, maybe they need to stop subsidizing and providing air conditioned patrol vehicles and put more officers on the streets walking a beat?  Exercise, better community relations, and acclimation to the weather.

I'd like to see a remedial training class for active duty officers every 3 years just to see how many can pass the same recruitment physical training tasks.

Agree.  Just like in the military.  Annual physical fitness standards depending on age group and gender.

We cannot have these "one time" and you're good for life kind of thing in the police force.

I keep thinking of that balloon of a cop working at HPD Firearms Division at Headquarters that took smoke breaks every 15 minutes.

Everytime I saw him I wondered how many minutes it would take him to run 10 yards.

Agree.  Just like in the military.  Annual physical fitness standards depending on age group and gender.

We cannot have these "one time" and you're good for life kind of thing in the police force.

I keep thinking of that balloon of a cop working at HPD Firearms Division at Headquarters that took smoke breaks every 15 minutes.

Everytime I saw him I wondered how many minutes it would take him to run 10 yards.

Maybe he compensates by being an excellent marksman - able to take down a fleeing suspect with one shot!   

If you think cops have a harder job than the military due to limited backup and lone patrols, maybe we should take the HPD's advice and issue each of them a permanent partner?  You know ...

Get a big dog!   

One of the biggest impediments to police officers' jobs isn't physical -- it's societal.  The many laws, policies and now social media exposure creates an environment in which one mistake or lapse in judgement can not only end a career, but it can land the officer in jail.  Qualified immunity isn't as ironclad as it once was.

One of the biggest impediments to police officers' jobs isn't physical -- it's societal. 

I'd agree with this. A good cop can avoid having to resort to physical force quite often through the use of good communication skills. Not possessing these skills can create all sorts of snowballing problems that can land cops in hot water.

It is, in fact, very uncommon in military training.  Of course rates vary by service, location and type of training/specialties.

In 2021, heat stroke incidents among recruits was just 25.  The Army alone had more than 30K recruits, so that number is not really a "common" occurrence. 

Military leaders are taught to take great care to avoid heat-related illness among many other physical ailments that can reduce combat effectiveness.  In my training, the base would raise a red flag to indicate that the heat index was too high for physical exertion.  We ate 3 meals a day in the mess hall, and every person was required to take 2 tall glasses of water in addition to any other beverages we chose.  In survival training, we sought out shade, drank 1 qt of water per hour, and were instructed on the signs of heat exhaustion and dehydration.

This was in Texas during August, the hottest month of the year.

Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.

Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.

Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.

Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.

Perhaps your "knowledge" of military training isn't as complete as you think.

There are many on here who've actually completed training during different periods in time, in different services, in various organizations, and with a variety of experiences.  We're glad to share that knowledge if you'd only ask rather than relying on something you read somewhere written by .... somebody? 

Good points, I guess I had in mind the training of more elite soldiers that are really pushed to the peak of human stress.

Training to recognize it is very important but I don't think it is something normally covered in police training.

If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.

I say X seconds separation cause u dont want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.

I say X seconds separation cause u dont want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Sorry, but I disagree.  There should be no set number of times a Cop has to issue an order before they can fire their weapon.

Each case is going to be unique in some way.  Sometimes the threat is just distraught and not actually hurting anyone.  If they have a weapon like a machete, is it really a threat to several Cops if the distance is maintained and no one else is close?  Getting machete man to talk might end the altercation with no injuries on either side.  I don't think ordering someone "like 40 times" to disarm is productive.  It's not like they didn't hear you already.  If you can get them calmed down and find a way to make them see they have alternatives, they will put the machete down once they are no longer willing to die by Cop or whatever else they intended.

Maybe lawyers and police captains writing policies will prefer there be a "legal" number of times you must at a minimum tell someone to drop a weapon.  But what happens when the situation doesn't allow time for that?  The bad guy could open fire before the Cop even knows he's in danger.  At that point, zero would be a valid number of times to voice a command ... and with zero seconds in between!

Nope.  Trying to prescribe a set number of commands spaced a set number of seconds apart only means the Cop can shoot after he does that even if it was unnecessary and be cleared.

Besides, ever try to do anything many times in a given interval while under stress?  You lose count, don't measure time accurately and so on.  In there's a required 10 seconds between commands, are you really sure it's been 10 seconds when the adrenaline kicks in, your heart is racing, and your life is threatened?  How many times have we seen where a Cop says he fired 3 times, but the mag in his firearm and the rounds recovered from the body say it was closer to 10?

While the job itself might have more challenges, we are talking specifically about training.

Unless it's HPD's goal to give recruits heat stroke because it's more realistic with regards to actual police duty, there should be better control over the physical illnesses that can arise in training.  It's much more difficult to train someone who had to go to the hospital to be treated for a preventable problem like heat stroke.

This is Hawaii, after all. Not exactly a shock that people can exceed a safe body temp with moderate physical exertion.  If they want to develop a tolerance to the temperatures here, maybe they need to stop subsidizing and providing air conditioned patrol vehicles and put more officers on the streets walking a beat?  Exercise, better community relations, and acclimation to the weather.

I'd like to see a remedial training class for active duty officers every 3 years just to see how many can pass the same recruitment physical training tasks.

There's a difference between Heat exhaustion and heat stroke.  Heat exhaustion, which the officers had, isnt uncommon in the military, sports, and employment.  It doesn't require hospitalization.  Heat stroke is the deadly one.
I see heat exhaustion (correction) on the outdoor shooting ranges, hiking, races, and hardwork outside.

The stat of 25 heatstrokes in military training is probably correct.  But the number of heat exhaustion is likely much higher, I'd say 10x that or more.

There's a difference between Heat exhaustion and heat stroke.  Heat exhaustion, which the officers had, isnt uncommon in the military, sports, and employment.  It doesn't require hospitalization.  Heat stroke is the deadly one.
I see heatstroke on the outdoor shooting ranges, hiking, races, and hardwork outside.

The stat of 25 heatstrokes in military training is probably correct.  But the number of heat exhaustion is likely much higher, I'd say 10x that or more.

I'm well aware of the differences.  It's also easy to look up.

Heat exhaustion is one of three heat-related illnesses, with heat cramps being the mildest
and heatstroke being the most serious.

Causes of heat illness include exposure to high temperatures, particularly when there is also
high humidity, and strenuous physical activity. Without prompt treatment, heat exhaustion can
lead to heatstroke, a life-threatening condition. Fortunately, heat exhaustion is preventable.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-exhaustion/symptoms-causes/syc-20373250

Nowhere in the OP article was the term "heat exhaustion" used.  They simply said "exhaustion."

They also said:

EMS treated and transported the recruits to medical centers in serious condition.

Seems like being hospitalized in serious condition falls more under heat stroke and less under heat exhaustion, but that requires the journalists to know what they are writing about and the sources to give them accurate information.

I've seen heat exhaustion many times.  It never required hospitalizations.  Only heat stroke was serious enough for transport and hospitalization.

Treatment for heat stroke includes lots of ice packs, IV fluids to rehydrate, and monitoring vitals.

Treatment for heat exhaustion is to find a cool place, place ice packs on the head and inside of the elbows to cool blood as it flows, and drinking some water.

Mayo clinic agrees:

When to see a doctor

If you think you have heat exhaustion:

Stop all activity and rest.
Move to a cooler place.
Drink cool water or sports drinks.
Contact your doctor if your symptoms get worse or they don't improve within one hour.

Standard first aid for heat exhaustion.

I'm well aware of the differences.  It's also easy to look up.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-exhaustion/symptoms-causes/syc-20373250

Nowhere in the OP article was the term "heat exhaustion" used.  They simply said "exhaustion."

They also said:
Seems like being hospitalized in serious condition falls more under heat stroke and less under heat exhaustion, but that requires the journalists to know what they are writing about and the sources to give them accurate information.

I've seen heat exhaustion many times.  It never required hospitalizations.  Only heat stroke was serious enough for transport and hospitalization.

Treatment for heat stroke includes lots of ice packs, IV fluids to rehydrate, and monitoring vitals.

Treatment for heat exhaustion is to find a cool place, place ice packs on the head and inside of the elbows to cool blood as it flows, and drinking some water.

Mayo clinic agrees:
Standard first aid for heat exhaustion.

If it's due to exhaustion, then they were just tired.

Im sweating, it must be hot

Heat exhaustion can lead to heat stroke in a blink of an eye.  Even when diagnosed and already being treated for heat exhaustion, the victim has to be monitored closely.

climate change
how dare you!!!

Im sweating, it must be hot

Perhaps your "knowledge" of military training isn't as complete as you think.

There are many on here who've actually completed training during different periods in time, in different services, in various organizations, and with a variety of experiences.  We're glad to share that knowledge if you'd only ask rather than relying on something you read somewhere written by .... somebody?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35608520/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20488%20incident%20cases%20of,2018%20and%20then%20declined%20in%202019%20and%202020.

"In 2021, there were 488 incident cases of heat stroke and 1,864 incident cases of heat exhaustion among active component service members of the U.S. Armed Forces."

Way more than the 25 you mentioned.
Perhaps your "knowledge" isn't as complete as you think?

If someone has a weapon, the cop should only tell 3 times to put it down and each demand separated by X seconds. Then use of deadly force is allowed. Not ask 40 times, like that guy on the big island with the machete. Total waste of time.

I say X seconds separation cause u don't want the 3 demands done within 2 seconds total and then they get lit up. The weapon bearer needs time go drop the weapon.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Not really what I was getting at.

What I was talking about was the way a cop speaks to someone.
Does their speech style agitate someone or calm them down?
Does it give context to an instruction or is it just bossy?
Are they condescending or understanding?

Most agitated people can be brought under control by a skilled communicator but there will always be that 5% (my estimate) who just aren't going to be able to be calmed down or the situation simply doesn't allow for that avenue. 

There are even some cops who amazingly manage to do the opposite, take a relatively calm person and manage to make them agitated.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35608520/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20there%20were%20488%20incident%20cases%20of,2018%20and%20then%20declined%20in%202019%20and%202020.

"In 2021, there were 488 incident cases of heat stroke and 1,864 incident cases of heat exhaustion among active component service members of the U.S. Armed Forces."

Way more than the 25 you mentioned.
Perhaps your "knowledge" isn't as complete as you think?

Flapp mentioned the 25 was among recruits, so a smaller population.  I'm surprised it's that low.

The 1864 number is probably undercounted and many are not reported.  Much harder to not report heat stroke.

Heat stroke should be considered critical condition as a person would die or be permanently injured without major intervention.  Heat exhaustion should be serious condition as it's more stable and can be reversed with cooling, water, and time.