attn CCW holders (Read 7081 times)

ren

Deeds Not Words

changemyoil66

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2024, 08:44:53 AM »
HI AG gonna pressure charges. Just wait.

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RSN172

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2024, 10:08:20 AM »
If the stolen vehicle isn't mine, family or a friend's,  I wouldn't get involved if I saw it.  I might call 911 and tell them I saw the vehicle at such and such place.  Then again, I might not. Depends how busy I am at the moment.
Happily living in Puna

QUIETShooter

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2024, 10:17:19 AM »
So much things wrong with this incident.  In my opinion that individual should not have involved his concealed weapon.

Like mentioned above, call 911 and be a good witness.  Your life and your loved ones didn't seem like it was in danger.  The weapon should not even have been drawn.

The only scenario that could cause someone to draw and detain is if the car was used in a manner that could have killed bystanders, him/herself, or their loved ones.

edited to add:  This kind stuff is ammunition for the gun control nuts.  Garan Ball Barans.  You watch.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

oldfart

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2024, 10:49:08 AM »
So much things wrong with this incident.  In my opinion that individual should not have involved his concealed weapon.

Like mentioned above, call 911 and be a good witness.  Your life and your loved ones didn't seem like it was in danger.  The weapon should not even have been drawn.

The only scenario that could cause someone to draw and detain is if the car was used in a manner that could have killed bystanders, him/herself, or their loved ones.

edited to add:  This kind stuff is ammunition for the gun control nuts.  Garan Ball Barans.  You watch.
============
I was thinking something like if the car was endangering kids or pedestrians,
 I might try to pursue and inform the police where the car is located.
I don't ccw but I do carry a big stick. (not joking)
 :shaka:
What, Me Worry?

zippz

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2024, 11:52:46 AM »
Main thing to remember is the criminal is at fault.

BTW, I heard the CCW guy was related to the truck owner.

Although people shouldn't give chase, I can understand why he did what he did.  If your truck gets stolen do you trust HPD to get it back? If it's uninsured, its very difficult for a family to replace.  A lot of people would've given chase if they could.

For the incident itself.  CCW guy looked like he was muzzling the cop. Should've been holstered or at the very least be at low ready with two hands on the gun ready to respond if needed.  The good thing is the cop trusted the CCW guy.
A lot of car thieves carry weapons and police deem them dangerous. So it might be acceptable to draw on a car thief.

groveler

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2024, 12:20:11 PM »
If the stolen vehicle isn't mine, family or a friend's,  I wouldn't get involved if I saw it.  I might call 911 and tell them I saw the vehicle at such and such place.  Then again, I might not. Depends how busy I am at the moment.
If the stolen vehicle isn't mine, family or a friend's,  I wouldn't get involved if I saw it.  I might call 911 and tell them I saw the vehicle at such and such place.  Then again, I might not. Depends how busy I am at the moment.
[/quote]
"If the stolen vehicle isn't mine, family or a friend's,  I wouldn't get involved if I saw it.".
Y'all got it mostly right.  CCW is not an excuse to play cop.  You only use it to protect yourself, family or
someone from substantial physical harm in a public place.
In WA state where CCW holders have way more legal leeway, rights,  and protections than Hawaii, that is the rule.
It is seriously enforced.

Besides,  Cops have lawsuit protection when they do stupid,  You don't have any protection even when
you are in the right and uncharged.

Let them play cop.

QUIETShooter

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2024, 12:39:26 PM »
Main thing to remember is the criminal is at fault.

agree

BTW, I heard the CCW guy was related to the truck owner.

Is this a legit reason to draw your weapon as a CCW holder?

Although people shouldn't give chase, I can understand why he did what he did.  If your truck gets stolen do you trust HPD to get it back? If it's uninsured, its very difficult for a family to replace.  A lot of people would've given chase if they could.

A CCW holder brandishing his weapon playing cop?  Is this within your right to defend yourself and your loved ones as a CCW holder?

For the incident itself.  CCW guy looked like he was muzzling the cop. Should've been holstered or at the very least be at low ready with two hands on the gun ready to respond if needed.  The good thing is the cop trusted the CCW guy.
A lot of car thieves carry weapons and police deem them dangerous. So it might be acceptable to draw on a car thief.

Again, is this a situation where self defense is warranted?  A CCW holder is now a civilian deputy now?
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

zippz

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2024, 01:22:06 PM »
Again, is this a situation where self defense is warranted?  A CCW holder is now a civilian deputy now?

Depends what happened prior to the video starting and there's still a lot we don't know what was going on. Safer bet would be to follow within reason and guide the police in

Probably not considered  brandishing since he's stopping a felony and he could articulate a lot of car thieves posses weapons.

People have a right to use reasonable force to protect property.   The stop was fine and he could yank her out of the car, as unarmed or gun concealed.  People try to prevent theft all the time.   If she whips out a gun or knife outside the car as a threat, then he can draw and defend himself against death or serious bodily injury, depending on the circumstance.

Per the law if he can retreat safely he must do so. Like if she's still in the truck and whips out a knife while he's a good distance away.

groveler

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2024, 04:35:09 PM »
Depends what happened prior to the video starting and there's still a lot we don't know what was going on. Safer bet would be to follow within reason and guide the police in

Probably not considered  brandishing since he's stopping a felony and he could articulate a lot of car thieves posses weapons.

People have a right to use reasonable force to protect property.   The stop was fine and he could yank her out of the car, as unarmed or gun concealed.  People try to prevent theft all the time.   If she whips out a gun or knife outside the car as a threat, then he can draw and defend himself against death or serious bodily injury, depending on the circumstance.

Per the law if he can retreat safely he must do so. Like if she's still in the truck and whips out a knife while he's a good distance away.
"People have a right to use reasonable force to protect property"
On their property or business or property they
were legally responsible for,  on their property or business.
Anything else and you are risking lawsuits.

I'm not a lawyer but I once chased down a shoplifter while I was "on the clock", and restrained him
on a public sidewalk till the police showed up.
I recovered my Bosses property, a six pack of Budweiser 16 oz cans.
Cop told me the only reason I wasn't arrested for assault and various other things they could dream up is
he was a strong, healthy, young, adult male, and I was a minor.
This was in a Hispanic community and I'm a white kid.
Waste of time to deal with it.
 :wtf:

Sodie

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2024, 08:18:39 PM »
Depends what happened prior to the video starting and there's still a lot we don't know what was going on. Safer bet would be to follow within reason and guide the police in

Probably not considered  brandishing since he's stopping a felony and he could articulate a lot of car thieves posses weapons.

People have a right to use reasonable force to protect property.   The stop was fine and he could yank her out of the car, as unarmed or gun concealed.  People try to prevent theft all the time.   If she whips out a gun or knife outside the car as a threat, then he can draw and defend himself against death or serious bodily injury, depending on the circumstance.

Per the law if he can retreat safely he must do so. Like if she's still in the truck and whips out a knife while he's a good distance away.

Can’t use deadly force to defend property except for a couple of pretty specific situations.  Sounds like this probably was NOT one of them.

zippz

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2024, 09:28:09 PM »
I'm not a lawyer but I once chased down a shoplifter while I was "on the clock", and restrained him
on a public sidewalk till the police showed up.
I recovered my Bosses property, a six pack of Budweiser 16 oz cans.
Cop told me the only reason I wasn't arrested for assault and various other things they could dream up is
he was a strong, healthy, young, adult male, and I was a minor.
This was in a Hispanic community and I'm a white kid.
Waste of time to deal with it.
 :wtf:

Sounds like a legal detainment unless you used excessive force after you caught him.  However it may have to do with the difficulty of enforcing shoplifting laws.  In Hawaii you need continuous observation of the suspect from when they took the item.  If you have a break in observation, then the shoplifter has a defense.  If they have a defense, then you assaulted an innocent person.

zippz

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2024, 09:30:52 PM »
Can’t use deadly force to defend property except for a couple of pretty specific situations.  Sounds like this probably was NOT one of them.

It depends.  If someone swipes your wallet, you can chase after them and keep your gun concealed.  If they start shooting at you, it's no longer protection of property, it becomes protection of self.

If instead you chase after them with your gun out, then that turns a bit murky.

Sodie

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2024, 10:14:02 PM »
It depends.  If someone swipes your wallet, you can chase after them and keep your gun concealed.  If they start shooting at you, it's no longer protection of property, it becomes protection of self.

If instead you chase after them with your gun out, then that turns a bit murky.

Right.  At that point, as you say, you’re not defending property with deadly force, you’re defending yourself.

Bottom line: Generally, in Hawaii (or just about anywhere else except maybe Texas), don’t draw your firearm to defend property (unless you’ve read and thoroughly understand HRS 703-306, and you fit into one of the very narrow sets of circumstances in which using deadly force to defend property is ok).

macsak

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2024, 05:38:02 AM »

QUIETShooter

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2024, 09:48:47 AM »
But the vehicle in the article was not the CCW holder's property.

I'm referring to the OP's post.

And I'm questioning his actions as a CCW holder.  Were his actions warranted?  I say NO.
Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

zippz

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2024, 03:20:01 PM »
But the vehicle in the article was not the CCW holder's property.

I'm referring to the OP's post.

And I'm questioning his actions as a CCW holder.  Were his actions warranted?  I say NO.

You can protect the property of another.  I heard the CCW guy was somehow related to the owner.

CCW probably went overboard, but depends what happened before the video.  Cop doesn't seem concerned the gun is out, there may be a reason for it.

Sodie

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2024, 06:00:49 PM »
You can protect the property of another.  I heard the CCW guy was somehow related to the owner.

CCW probably went overboard, but depends what happened before the video.  Cop doesn't seem concerned the gun is out, there may be a reason for it.

Still can’t use legally use deadly force unless you meet one of the exceptions in HRS 703-306.  I don’t know if any of those exceptions applied in this case, but seems to me they’d be pretty rare.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2024, 06:59:06 PM »
Criminals should have a 3 strike rule,  after 3 felony crimes the next one is auto death sentence.   Would really cut down crime.

Did you just make that up yourself?

The problem with your plan is there are lots and lots of felonies that are non-violent.  In fact, many are statutory felonies with no actual victims involved.

Off the top of my head, I can think of one like that.  Recreational drug use/possession.  Depending on the state & federal laws, the amount, which drug, and your criminal history, you could be sentenced to more than a year in prison. 

Are these the kinds of felonies you are talking about?  Or are you mainly including violent crimes with victims involved?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: attn CCW holders
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2024, 11:22:41 PM »
Can’t use deadly force to defend property except for a couple of pretty specific situations.  Sounds like this probably was NOT one of them.

Drawing a weapon and pointing it at a suspect is not use of deadly force though, actually firing the weapon would be.
If you walked up to a car thief with a bat but didn't swing it would be the same issue with regards to deadly force. So the requirements to use deadly force are not the same as to present a deadly weapon.