This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later. (Read 5068 times)

changemyoil66

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2024, 08:02:31 AM »
Keep in mind that a firearm used for self defense doesn't mean it had to be fired. My friend caught a guy trying to break into his home thru his window. Once he saw the AR, the guy ran away and never came back.

The guy was removing gelousies (sp?). He shined his WML from his AR at him. The guy was blinded as he couldn't see anything but the bright light. He still continued to remove gelousies. So he didn't care if he was spotted. My friend then shined the light at the ceiling to illuminate the AR and then the guy saw it and ran.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2024, 09:23:03 AM »
...
Yes, it does not suffice for an attacker that has a gun.  For me, I feel the odds of that situation are low enough that doesn’t warrant the risk of keeping a readily accessible firearm in the house since death by family is 2x more like than death by stranger if a firearm is accessible.
...

Also keep in mind that that statistic is a "Captain Obvious" moment.

Of course homes with guns will have a higher incident of "death by family member."  No different than owning a car increases the chances of death by auto crash, killed during a car jacking, your teen killing themselves or others joyriding, or choking on exhaust fumes many, many times over versus homes that only use public transportation.

If guns did not exist, would the rate of death by family member be lower?  Or will the means of death simply shift to knives, poison and/or strangulation?

You can't shoot anyone without having a gun.  That's the other way of stating that stat.  Common sense. 

To me, it's simple.  Weigh the benefits against the costs and risks.  Then, as with anything you bring into the house, assess the safety risks it might represent, and mitigate those risks.

Nobody should force you to own a gun, just like nobody should force you to not own one.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2024, 09:36:25 AM »
I look at having an accessible gun like a condom.  Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.  AVP film quote.

But maybe I'm just impacted more because in my younger days, there were many times I wish I had a condom and didn't have one.

groveler

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2024, 07:39:24 PM »
Cops in Hawaii are more dangerous than most of our criminals.
 :grrr:
You only call 911 when you can't drive yourself in.
Hawaii government is Shiite.
Last person I would ask for help from is Hawaii government member.
Now all you Hawaii government employees think about that.
If Honolulu got nuked tomorrow, I'd have a party.
 :thumbsup:

ren

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2024, 08:44:29 PM »
Cops in Hawaii are more dangerous than most of our criminals.
 :grrr:
You only call 911 when you can't drive yourself in.
Hawaii government is Shiite.
Last person I would ask for help from is Hawaii government member.
Now all you Hawaii government employees think about that.
If Honolulu got nuked tomorrow, I'd have a party.
 :thumbsup:

you're not a nice person
Deeds Not Words

groveler

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2024, 06:01:35 PM »
you're not a nice person
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nice

No I am not.
I'll fight with anybody.
 :crazy:
Nice people almost always lose.
That is why Hawaii is so weak.
Determined people with good morals
mostly win. God is my leader.
Who is yours?  Democrats?



ren

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2024, 06:17:17 PM »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nice

No I am not.
I'll fight with anybody.
 :crazy:
Nice people almost always lose.
That is why Hawaii is so weak.
Determined people with good morals
mostly win. God is my leader.
Who is yours?  Democrats?

I don't consider people who run away fighters.
Deeds Not Words

macsak

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2024, 07:08:59 PM »
run away part time...

I don't consider people who run away fighters.

QUIETShooter

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2024, 07:15:02 PM »

If Honolulu got nuked tomorrow, I'd have a party.
 :thumbsup:

You have good morals?  Is that what you claim?  I think not.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

changemyoil66

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2024, 11:21:47 AM »

If Honolulu got nuked tomorrow, I'd have a party.
 :thumbsup:

Would u still visit this forum?

tim808

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2024, 01:53:22 PM »
Hi Flapp
I didn’t really research that statistic that if a readily available firearm is kept in a home that someone was twice as likely to be killed by a family member

I should look it up. 

I just recall that a large portion of murders are friend/family (someone you know) vs a stranger…..so when I ran across that stat where your twice as likely to die if
you keep a gun in a home, it sort of made sense to me as someone in your home now has the means to take you out in a heat of the moment kind of thing…..and size difference isn’t as much as a factor.

If no firearm, they can still grab a hammer or a knife…but not as effective

Those people that died in my small town, I think one guy might not have killed the 2 okole neighbors and committed suicide if it took a few more minutes to unlock his safe, retrieve shotgun and load it….in those few minutes he might have calmed down enough to realize it was not worth it.  He was a really nice guy but I guess if people act like okoles to him, it flipped a switch

I was shocked when I heard about it.  I think that may also be a partial reason why I don’t want a readily accessible firearm.  He was a nice guy who seemed pretty grounded.  Killed two okole neighbors and himself.

I think a lot of us worry about defending ourselves from criminals.  I tend to think its the law abiding citizen and/or his family doing something they regret in the heat of the moment that is a bigger threat.

Bigger factors to staying safe are avoiding
- stupid people
- stupid things (alcohol/drug)
- stupid places
- staying out at stupid time

I looked up dying from lightning, it is about 1/million per
year…..dying by a criminal on Oahu via a home invasion is like 2/million per year
(Yes, Oahu doesn’t have as much lightning as the mainland)

Yes, odds means nothing when someone is trying to kick in your door and you only have pepper spray and a machete

Yes, the odds of a family member killing you can be reduced by putting in certain safety measures

I just feel there are other things that have a higher chance of killing me so I would rather address those things

For the felon…instead of using a stolen firearm:
Airgun:
I was looking up semi auto airguns, I saw a 10rd semi auto that shoot 80gr pellets at 830fps. 

Paintball:
There are 0.68 154gr steel core with a rubber jacket paintballs….less lethal.  A metal BB is like 5gr.  I Think a paintball gun could be modified to run it close to 300fps

A paintball gun with a full 20oz tank of liquid co2 should be able to fire a 400 rounds

People shoot a paintball gun about 5rds/second.  15 steel balls in 3 seconds at 15feet at their face and neck is going to hurt a lot.   If they are on drugs they might not feel it…..but I feel there is a good change it will break the bones in his face and possibly his skull.

There are YT videos showing 68 caliber pistol shooting a ballistic gel skull. Most pb guns use a 10” or longer barrel and should do more damage

I own an automag paintball gun that can shoot full auto…so it could possibly shoot like 8balls/sec….24 154gr steel balls in 3 seconds.  It can empty the 200 rd hopper in about 24 seconds and I can reload with another 200rds while holding the trigger down.   So about 400 steel core balls in about a minute

The paintball is almost 4x heavier than a 22lr but going 4x slower.   I’m guessing energy is about the same as a 22lr.  154gr ball or 22lr to the body might be tolerable….but at 15-20 if defender has the jump….head/face shots will be very painful, could ko, could be lethal.

Engagement distance is like 15-20 ft.  If I start firing first at 15ft they won’t be able to aim shots at back at me without worrying about losing an eye or two… they will only be able to blind fire and I can run up and roll them from point blank and dump 200 steel encased balls on their heads, reloading another 200 balls while still firing

Plastic encased steel balls are called less lethal but I feel they are still pretty lethal at close range if firing hundreds of them at the heads of people

54gr liquid filled pball will leave welts, bruises, lumps on a head at close range.  A 154gr steel core ball is likely going to break facial bones and the skull, could knock out people and possibly be lethal

Those are pretty tough people if they can deal with 400 steels balls and still want to continue going for that felon

That felon probably did something pretty bad/foolish if they want to kill him…..even if he made it thru that attack, they will go after him again in a situation that puts the odds in their favor
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 01:58:52 PM by tim808 »

tim808

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2024, 02:05:53 PM »
For the law abiding people (not involved with drugs) attacked by a stranger at home….im guessing they were the lowest hanging fruit.  No visible security cameras, no security alarm and/or signage, no dogs and easy to enter.

I heard that thieves check for unlocked doors

I’m assuming the stranger that attacked the homeowner had the intent of taking property…not attacking the owner

22lr is approx 131 ft-lbs, a 154gr steel core paintball is around the same, a punch is like 110 ft-lbs.  All that energy on 3/4” circle

I’m thinking a decently fit guy could knock out a person with 3 flush punches.  (No Mark Hunt and Rodtang aren’t human.  Their heads are filled with concrete instead of a brain)

So I think a pball gun with 400rds of steel core balls at 15 -20 ft is pretty decent for home defense if you can’t legally own a firearm

Leave his bedroom door cracked open with a door chain in place and let them have it as they come down the hallway.  Lock the door and reload lol
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 02:42:14 PM by tim808 »

Flapp_Jackson

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2024, 02:27:53 PM »
Hi Flapp

[snip]
Reading through your very thorough, well thought out reply, i find one thing that jumps out at me.

It's common for anyone on either side if the discussion to focus more on one type of event versus the entire spectrum.  Maybe they have experienced or see more reports of domestic violence in their circle of friends, coworkers, neighbors or houses than they do burglaries, home invasions, muggings, road rage attacks, hold-ups where you work, mentally ill becoming violent, and so on.

When I see the "twice as likely to die if you own a gun" stat, that's not being gathered in a vacuum where only domestic violence exists.

i accept that having a gun in the house increases the odds of it being used on a resident or someone else using theirs that they brought because you armed yourself, too. 

Ask yourself how much interaction you have with people outside the home.  With people visiting your home.

Then compare that to the number of hours you spend with your family and cohabitants at home.  The more time you spend with people, the more likely you are to be caught in the wake of a mental breakdown, drug episode, or other incident that results in violence.  like you said "places, times" have to be factored in.

What if the stats said you are more likely to be killed by any means by a relative under your one roof than any of your neighbors.  Would you move out and live alone? Move in with a neighbor?

I distrust statistics that try to model causes of human behavior, because they never seem to do more than validate the agenda of the analysts.

One of the reasons alcohol was banned under prohibition was the argument that so many deaths were attributable to being drunk -- accidents, car wrecks, fights, robberies.  all things most of us would not choose to do sober, but alcohol affects judgement.  It's a common excuse;  I never would have done it if I hadn't been so drunk.

You can choose to eliminate drugs and alcohol from your home and significantly reduce the risk of someone becoming violent.  It follows that you can also keep a gun around in case someone not living with you gets intoxicated and decides to inflict harm on you and your family members.

I think you're on the right path.  Don't let the stats make your decision.  Decide whether you believe defending yourself and your family is as likely as someone using that firearm to harm themselves or others.  If you can accept the results of your decision if you're wrong, then nobody should try to change your mind.  Make your choice -- take your chances -- hope for the best.

I also want to point out one glaring fact:  one decision is active, the other passive.  Getting a gun, taking training, securing it, giving others access for emergencies, .... these are all active decisions.  Those can be identified later as things you did that lead to a bad result should that occur.

On the other hand, choosing to avoid buying a firearm and all the things associated with it i mentioned above represent a passive solution -- i.e. doing nothing.  But don't let that lull you into a false sense of blamelessness.  You made a conscious decision to remain unprepared should you need a firearm.  it's your decision to own.

Finally, there are the benefits we've not looked at, such as ensuring your family members have the familiarity with guns to be safe around them.  How do you teach firearm safety without allowing spouses and children to handle and practice with one?  You could rent one, but most people won't spend the time or money without seeing a need.

You can't pick and choose who your kids hang out with, nor who their friends hang out with.  It's foreseeable that your kids will come across a firearm one day.  Maybe just someone showing off their dad's pistol, or taking it camping to shoot at some trees.  Those are not the situations i'd want my girls to be in learning about firearms their first time.  Education is valuable.  Firearms safety saves lives.  You can't sanitize their world, but you can prepare them for the things that might require at least some safety training and familiarization.

Maybe an airsoft or pellet gun can suffice for training if the manual of arms and components are very similar to a real firearm.  Just something else to think about.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2024, 02:40:42 PM »
For the law abiding people (not involved with drugs) attacked by a stranger at home….im guessing they were the lowest hanging fruit.  No visible security cameras, no security alarm and/or signage, no dogs and easy to enter.

I heard that thieves check for unlocked doors

I’m assuming the stranger that attacked the homeowner had the intent of taking property…not attacking the owner

You can make those assumptions about strangers, but there are also the people you know who can decide you have something they really want, and they are familiar enough with your home to think they can get in and out without setting off alarms or having their face recorded.

Had a coworker telling me about this homeless drug addict his mother-in-law was trying to get off her land.  He was one of several homeless she hired to help with landscaping and such.

She even let him live in an inoperable RV on the property.

The guy became more and more problematic, confronting the daughter and son usually cursing and screaming over nothing, coming to the RV stoned and causing disruptions, and having the cops show up all the time from causing problems elsewhere then retreating to the RV.

She finally had it after months and had him evicted and arrested multiple times until they were finally able to have the RV towed away.  she had to wait months for the area to be dry enough.  All the rain at that time made the place a mud pit, so no trucks could get in or out without geting stuck themselves.

To make it worse, every time he was arrested for threatening and causing disturbances, the local church would put up money for bail and expenses to get him out -- enabling him as it were under the belief they were helping him.

So, after the RV was gone and he was no longer allowed on the property, my coworker and his wife were spending the night at her mothers when a loud noise came from the bedroom.  They went in and found the man on top of the mother-in-law strangling her.  Being outnumbered, he fled out the bedroom window with the cut screen he entered from.

He was arrested and charged with attempted murder, but I left the company before the trial.  never found out what happened if anything.

Long story to illustrate the thing i've always said about my own, personal reason for having guns:

i don't own guns for the things i believe will happen.  i have them for the things i can't possibly predict.  I am my first responder.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

drck1000

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2024, 02:58:57 PM »
A wise man once advised me that "95% of the time is what you DON'T see coming that will kick your ass".  If you could see, game plan, etc, you may be able to avoid, but that's only based on what you know or information available to you.  What about the random in addition to calculated attacks, crime, etc? 

changemyoil66

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2024, 03:33:47 PM »

If no firearm, they can still grab a hammer or a knife…but not as effective



All depends. The Manoa chiropractor used a knife on his wife and kids.

changemyoil66

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2024, 03:35:26 PM »
A wise man once advised me that "95% of the time is what you DON'T see coming that will kick your ass".  If you could see, game plan, etc, you may be able to avoid, but that's only based on what you know or information available to you.  What about the random in addition to calculated attacks, crime, etc?

The 1 thing training has taught me about the 5% is to solve the problem.  The exercise in class doesn't stop just because of X or Y reason.  Figure it out so you can finish the exercise.  What I have seen many times in class, is a guys gun jams or a mag falls out and they stop.  Solve the problem and continue on.

tim808

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2024, 04:50:26 PM »
Hi Flapp
Your right, there are risks to keeping a readily accessible firearm and risks to not keeping a readily accessible firearm.   And you’re right about taking measures to mitigate the risks.  Your right, statistics show that 2 to 1, if a person is murdered, it will be a friend/family….not a stranger.

My kids have some familiarity with firearms but they generally will only go if their friends, bf/hisband want to go.  So I usually try to get their friends/bf/husband to come out and drag my kids with them.

While try again when my 2nd kid comes back for the holidays

Will try a little harder when the 2nd kid move back permanently

For me, I fear a readily accessible firearm puts my family at more risk of harming ourselves…or others outside our home.   My biggest concern is that we are all human and could do something we regret in the heat of the moment….or have an accident.

My youngest is ok but he is still only 17.  I think something like 1/2 of firearm deaths are suicide.   17yo boys don’t have a fully developed frontal lobe.

These concerns of us harming ourselves or others  overrides concerns of harm to us by a home invasion…..when the odds for being murdered via a home invasion (2 in million Oahu) are about the same as getting hit by lightning (1 in million USA)

These thoughts are only for my situation based on stats and events that have happened to people I know.  And may not apply to others as their situation and experiences may differ.

I feel the layers in place will have criminals go after lower hanging fruit and my pepper spray will dissuade most intruders lowering my risk enough to not take the risks associated with having a readily accessible firearm in the home.

CMO,
Knives and firearms are both tools but firearms are generally more effective…more so for smaller statute people.   (Yes, knives in a surprise attack at short distances > than guns)

Off topic:
I only became a firearm owner after Katrina smashed Florida.   

Natural disasters are another story.  Maui sort of tells us how well prepared the various agencies and utilities are….even after a near disaster around 2018

I’ve heard from a friend who used to attend Oahu disaster meetings a few years ago that he was surprised at how unorganized the different parties were just about clearing the roads….a lot of places will be blocked by fallen poles and power lines….so the power company has to clear a path out of where they will stage before the storm to the various City, State, Federal, Military sites that will assist with debris removal

Hopefully since then they have figured out a joint staging location and other logistics that is away from the areas that have power lines

I’m thinking one of the more critical things is clearing the path to Sand Island and hoping the piers and cranes are still in working condition

After attending those meetings my friend bought a semi auto shotgun and became a prepper….felt it would be a circus if a hurricane hit Oahu
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 05:01:12 PM by tim808 »

tim808

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2024, 05:30:09 PM »
Drck,
That sounds right….that something you’re not prepared for will kick your okole.

Idk if it’s possible to prepare for everything or if it is worth the time/money.  I basically prepare for  the more likely situations.

I make 6 decades soon and will likely be dead in my early 80’s.  I’m only 5-6 but weigh 220 lbs
My weight is going to be the death of me.   I probably have a better chance at winning a powerball than me being murdered before I die of a heart attack.

So I exercise 3x/week….and always take out my  grandson on Sundays cause I don’t know when it will be my time

Right now I’m more concerned about setting up my last kid than about being killed by an intruder.   

We’re all going to die and currently the odds on favorite for me is death via a heart attack.

I worry about the thing that is the most likely to kill me…..murder by intruder isn’t it….im more concerned about willpower and the necessary changes in lifestyle habits to reduce my weight

My time is coming so I’m more concerned about how to best transfer assets to the kids and put them in a position to thrive cause the cost of housing on Oahu is expensive
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 05:35:54 PM by tim808 »

Flapp_Jackson

Re: This is bound to happen here in Hawaii sooner or later.
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2024, 09:04:07 PM »
No matter how secure you feel at home, you don't live your life behind those walls 24/7.

I spent 5 years in Oklahoma, and almost every night there was a report of murders and dead bodies discovered.

There was more than one incident when an armed robbery occurred, and the employees were executed.  one was Stockade Sirloin Steakhouse, and another was Wynn's IGA all night supermarket.

One Air Force sergeant was visiting a friend but never made it to her friend's apartment.  In that apartment parking lot, she was abducted by a man and woman who were on a crime spree across the mainland.  Her body was found dumped in an abandoned house.

Home invasions were normally burglaries that happened when they thought the residents were at work or school.  Sometimes people takes a day off for a number of reasons and unfortunately become victims in their own homes.

Edmond, OK, was one of the first instances of someone 'going postal' and committing a mass workplace shooting.  14 victims and the shooter died, plus 8 injured.  He used 2 .45ACP 1911s and 1 .22LR Remington MK II.

I bet at least one of the victims or family members wished they'd been armed. 

My first supervisor at Tinker AFB said he took a firearm training class from the shooter, Pat Sherrill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_post_office_shooting


In TX, at a restaurant called Luby's, a nut job drove his truck into the restaurant and started killing customers and employees at random.  Everyone was unarmed due to a recent law passed that required they leave their guns in the car.

You should listen to this story and put yourself in Suzanna Hupp's shoes.


The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw