This is what I mean.  Why is helping another person out automatically make you a criminal, even in the eyes of those here on 2Ahawaii?

I may be wrong and these may have been just a bunch of punks futting around, but I would like to know what was the goings on before I make a snap judgement.  Just saying.

you forget that in hawaii, having a gun in public DOES automatically makes him a criminal.  A felony charge=never being able to own a gun every again (legally) as well as a whole other bunch of crap like prison (we aint talking no sissy jail here people, prison is big time!) as well as lawyer fees, and a lot of money to pay for bail and everything else.  Now it may be different if we did have CCW where people are educated on when and where you can pull out a gun but the fact is that we don't!  For all we know this guy could pull out his gun the next time someone cuts him off in traffic and start to unload on him cuz he thinks he is justified.  Facts are that he broke the law, he had nothing to do with the argument, and the other guy could have ran away from the guy with the bat which means it wasn't automatically a homicide situation, and we don't have CCW here. 

It does make the rest of us legal gun owners look bad and its a strike against legal CCW here.  How does that help our cause?

It's not about being a hero or whether or not his gun was registered.

To pull out a gun because you saw two guys ready to beat on each other with a bat or whatever is just stupid.

I have CCW permits in two states and part of the CCW process includes lessons on liability and justification for use of a firearm including deadly force.

If you think you're going to be a hero and pull out a gun every time you see a possible fight about to happen with the "well it could have possibly ended in a murder" excuse, then you have no business carrying a firearm.

Owning a firearm is a huge responsibility.

Part of that responsibility is knowing when deadly force is warranted.

You are not automatically given a vigilante, get out of jail card just because you have a gun.

So would you just let a guy beat another guy with the bat first before you did anything? Or just call the police, and wait to give a statement?  I see where you are coming from, but why no help if you are able.

Absolutely.

Even if CCW were legal, you're not justified in pulling a gun on someone until they've threatened you with IMMINENT death or bodily harm.

In the case of using a firearm to protect someone else's life, IMMINENT death or bodily harm must be established.

If some guy is walking down the street  with a bat, 20 feet away from some guy that he wants to hurt, that is not an IMMINENT threat.

You would be wrong and violating the law to draw a firearm in that situation.

*Imminent threat to life or serious bodily injury
*Your actions must be what any other "reasonable" person would do

If you haven't satisfied these parameters, you're a criminal.

I disagree with the statement above.  This means if your son, daughter, wife is threatened with rape/sodomy/maiming/death, then you cannot do anything about it..........and it's not just serious bodily injury unless you count the rape/sodomy as serious bodily injury (unless the dude is Mandingo, then maybe it is).

I also disagree about the 20ft comment as well.  At 20ft this guy is potentially 1.5 seconds from ending a life.  Now if the guy is outside a car and the potential victim inside a car with keys, then yes.  If the bat wielding guy is 5ft outside of a secured location (say outside a locked door, etc.), then yes.  I've been on a site where a guy wacked his head on the AC paving from an elevation of 16" (yes inches not feet) and they had to pull the plug on him.  Ned Nakoa..........one puch, one kick, dead:
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2008/05/20/news/story03.html

The disparity of force in this situation, to me, fully justifies the use of deadly force.  In this case the disparity is the baseball bat with the threat of using it.

I disagree with the statement above.  This means if your son, daughter, wife is threatened with rape/sodomy/maiming/death, then you cannot do anything about it..........and it's not just serious bodily injury unless you count the rape/sodomy as serious bodily injury (unless the dude is Mandingo, then maybe it is).

If my family is in danger of being killed, I will do whatever is necessary to ensure their safety.

(unless the dude is Mandingo, then maybe it is).

If that's the case then my wife is in danger every time she lays in the bed with me.

but that' only lasts for 2 minutes

On a good day. 

I like to also explore the possibilities of less than lethal defenses, for certain situations.


I agree with KK in that unless you are physically threatened by deadly force or serious bodily harm, a firearm should not be brought into the situation.

If that's the case then my wife is in danger every time she lays in the bed with me.

stun guns are totally illegal in hawaii.  dont even think about using one or buying one!  Also, people always make the argument that if you could have used less then lethal ammo or tools, you were not in immenent danger/death.

If that's the case then my wife is in danger every time she lays in the bed with me.